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Law School & Lawyer GAF

N

Necrovex

Member
Lawyer-Gaf, my friend asked me a question, and I hope you can help him out here:

"So I got a speeding ticket for going 20mph over the speed limit. The posted speed limit on the ticket says 50mph, nowhere on the road I was on was the speed limit 50mph. There are two different signs, one for 55mph and one for 45mph further down, but no 50mph. In addition to this the officer did not sign the bottom of the ticket nor require me to sign it as well. Do I have any legal ground here? Even if I don't I'd still rather pay for speeding in a 55mph zone than a 50mph zone."
 
B

brucewaynegretzky

Member
It's official: Law school was a waste. We had a client ask us about a particular point of law yesterday and I got assigned the research as someone who had most recently taken the relevant course. I wrote a memo less than three pages long and it was decided it was "way too long." Well... I'm screwed.
 
M

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Anyone else listening to the BP Oil Settlement fairness hearing? Shit's getting real. The judge just threw a couple of people out of the courthouse for live streaming the hearing on a website.

Which is silly on their part, because there's a 1-800 call in number.

She's outside of the courtroom and you can still hear her kicking up a fuss. :jnc
 
M

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Someone else is still live-streaming the hearing and the judge has the marshals watching the gallery to find them. The judge is threatening to terminate the hearing if they continue.

Drama!
 
stn

stn

Member
1L here. You guys have any tips for reading cases? I've sort of concluded that its generally wisest to skip the immaterial facts and go straight to the individuals decisions of the judges. I look at the arguments of counsel for only context into the judge's decisions. For my notes I've been summarizing each judge's decision and any relevant principles that have been developed or created.

Is this prudent? Thank you! Feel free to throw ANY--and I mean ANY--tips at me. :)
 
P

PBY

Banned
stn said:
1L here. You guys have any tips for reading cases? I've sort of concluded that its generally wisest to skip the immaterial facts and go straight to the individuals decisions of the judges. I look at the arguments of counsel for only context into the judge's decisions. For my notes I've been summarizing each judge's decision and any relevant principles that have been developed or created.

Is this prudent? Thank you! Feel free to throw ANY--and I mean ANY--tips at me. :)
Click to expand...

I'm not the best at this, because I'm a 2L and still figuring things out.

This is what I'd say- get a previous outline of the class, that has the basic holding/rule of the case. Then, when you read the case, note any facts that might seem relevant, in the sense that they could be something you point to when breaking down a fact pattern that you see on the exam. Ignore the facts that really have no bearing, like peoples names, details that judges didn't focus on in their decisions, etc.
 
L

LowEndTorque

Member
stn said:
1L here. You guys have any tips for reading cases? I've sort of concluded that its generally wisest to skip the immaterial facts and go straight to the individuals decisions of the judges. I look at the arguments of counsel for only context into the judge's decisions. For my notes I've been summarizing each judge's decision and any relevant principles that have been developed or created.

Is this prudent? Thank you! Feel free to throw ANY--and I mean ANY--tips at me. :)
Click to expand...


Not that I'm even remotely qualified to give any manner of advice, and I could be completely wrong, but I'll just throw out the impression I'm getting so far. (you said throw ANY and i mean ANY tips :)

The cases you have to read for any given course seem to be selected specifically for the purpose of highlighting a particular rule, doctrine, test or principle that the prof thinks is important.

The way I'm approaching the cases is just to cut through all the fluff and extract the rule/principle/test/doctrine as efficiently as possible. In the end I'm guessing that you will need to know how to use these cases to make arguments for/against the plaintiff/defendant in a given fact pattern.

I've done a few practice-exams from previous years and in the fact patterns there will be sets of facts that immediately jump out at you as very, very similar, if not almost identical, to cases that you've looked at.

Cases with similar fact patterns but conflicting judgments seem to make things easier. For example, "the Defendant can argue that the contract was not valid based on X case with similar fact pattern, the Plaintiff can argue that the contract was valid and binding based on Y case with similar fact pattern"

Profs seem to like spending a ton of time talking about the ratio/obiter of the courts, arguments of the counsel, etc. but I get the feeling that a basic understanding of the facts of the case and a comprehensive understanding of the principle/doctrine/rule/test that the case established is all you really need. Again, I could be completely wrong though so don't listen to me.
 
P

pgtl_10

Member
Man now I'm scared. I passed the but not the MPRE. I took the MPRE in Nov. Now I have potential employers who might pass me up because I don't have a license yet. Also if I fail this time, the next MPRE is Aril 6 o it is like I failed the bar.

Oh man I'm scared and angry at potentially a staff attorney oppertunity in Fort Worth with a probate court.
 
G

Garret

Member
So, I graduated from Law School almost two weeks ago. It took me five years (it's around 5-6 years here in Argentina). I still can't shake the feeling that nothing has changed, although everything's gonna be different starting next year.

I wanted to ask you, guys, for book recommendations. I want to read about Contracts, Corporations and Philosophy of Law from authors of different parts of the world. I feel like I've been bound to read just Argentina-stuff.
 
C

Cat Party

Member
Garret said:
I wanted to ask you, guys, for book recommendations. I want to read about Contracts, Corporations and Philosophy of Law from authors of different parts of the world. I feel like I've been bound to read just Argentina-stuff.
Click to expand...

I would love to help but I have been practicing for five years and I have never so much as picked up a book on law that I didn't have to for some reason.
 
P

Puddles

Banned
I've got a question, hopefully someone here can answer it. I'm changing the names of people and companies in order to protect privacy.

Suppose Harriet, along with one other person, has recently formed a small business called Acme Industries that has incorporated in California. She is the President of said business. She wants to obtain a personal loan from XYZ bank which requires a co-signer on the promissory note. Harriet co-signs in the name of Acme Industries as the President.

Harriet defaults on the loan. Is Acme now liable to XYZ Bank? Acme can claim that Harriet lacked authority to co-sign for them, but it seems to me that XYZ could reasonably believe that Harriet, as President of the corporation, did have such authority, giving her apparent authority and making Acme liable.

Acme might claim that Harriet's action was ultra vires, but would they not still be liable since Harriet had agency by estoppel?
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
Looking for some Bar Review advice. I am taking the California exam next year (July), and I'm debating whether or not to actually take a review course. BarBri is definitely out; I can't justify spending that much money. A friend who graduated a few years ago gave me a bunch of outlines that look great, covering all the major subjects. I basically have all the information I need. Is it still worth taking a course? One of the cheaper ones could work for me, I suppose, but as the job market is so iffy, I'd rather have those thousands of dollars to live on.

I'm smart enough that I know I can learn it all. What is the advantage of taking a review course?
 
T

TangoAlphaLima

Member
ZackieChan said:
I'm smart enough that I know I can learn it all. What is the advantage of taking a review course?
Click to expand...

A review course actually forces you to go through the material and study it. If you're self-motivated and did well in law school, it's probably not necessary.

I took Barbri for my first bar 3 years ago, but that was more an insurance policy than anything else, as I had a job lined up, but would have lost it if I hadn't passed the bar. For my second bar in another state a year later, I hardly studied at all and still passed easily (mind you, I only had to do the essays for the second bar, my multiple choice results transferred over from my first bar).
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
TangoAlphaLima said:
A review course actually forces you to go through the material and study it. If you're self-motivated and did well in law school, it's probably not necessary.

I took Barbri for my first bar 3 years ago, but that was more an insurance policy than anything else, as I had a job lined up, but would have lost it if I hadn't passed the bar. For my second bar in another state a year later, I hardly studied at all and still passed easily (mind you, I only had to do the essays for the second bar, my multiple choice results transferred over from my first bar).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. Were they paying for your Barbri?

My fear is that I am making the biggest mistake of my life...but I'll probably be okay either way. I guess one of the issues is getting practice Multiple Choice questions and Essays, which I don't have. I could probably just jack my roommate's.
 
T

TangoAlphaLima

Member
ZackieChan said:
Thanks for the advice. Were they paying for your Barbri?

My fear is that I am making the biggest mistake of my life...but I'll probably be okay either way. I guess one of the issues is getting practice Multiple Choice questions and Essays, which I don't have. I could probably just jack my roommate's.
Click to expand...

No, I paid for it myself, as I took a government job out of law school (I had an opportunity to take a big law job where I summered twice during law school, but my wife didn't want to move to a different city; and unfortunately they would have paid for my Barbri course). Considering the poor job market, it seemed kind of ridiculous to not pay for Barbri since I would have lost the job if I wasn't licensed.

Regarding passing the bar, I knew several classmates that were not the brightest individuals who opted to self-study for the bar, and they passed without any problems. But I also knew some very smart people that did take Barbri and yet failed.

I think there are two major components to succeeding: 1) don't be a nervous wreck, and 2) know how to appropriately answer essay questions. Regarding #2, I don't mean you need to know all the right answers, you just need to know how the questions should be answered to show your legal reasoning. Even if you get the rule wrong, you can still get points for applying the wrong rule and coming to the wrong conclusion.
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
Pilgor said:
Finals begin Thursday.

Business Organizations
Internet Law
Evidence
Copyright Law
Patents

Wish me luck.
Click to expand...

I feel you bro. I am currently procrastinating on Remedies. Fortunately, I just have 3 this semester. Then, if I get the internship I interviewed for yesterday, only 1 in the spring. 3L is sweet.
 
G

Garret

Member
Puddles said:
I've got a question, hopefully someone here can answer it. I'm changing the names of people and companies in order to protect privacy.

Suppose Harriet, along with one other person, has recently formed a small business called Acme Industries that has incorporated in California. She is the President of said business. She wants to obtain a personal loan from XYZ bank which requires a co-signer on the promissory note. Harriet co-signs in the name of Acme Industries as the President.

Harriet defaults on the loan. Is Acme now liable to XYZ Bank? Acme can claim that Harriet lacked authority to co-sign for them, but it seems to me that XYZ could reasonably believe that Harriet, as President of the corporation, did have such authority, giving her apparent authority and making Acme liable.

Acme might claim that Harriet's action was ultra vires, but would they not still be liable since Harriet had agency by estoppel?
Click to expand...

Say, it might not be useful for you to have my take on the matter since I'm from a completely different background (Roman Continental Law), but I see it as an act that goes beyond the object of the company. You see, I don't think she could have done that even if she had asked for approval from the company's internal organs. But hey, things may be different over there, mate.
 
A

Ape Gone Insane

Member
Pilgor said:
Finals begin Thursday.

Business Organizations
Internet Law
Evidence
Copyright Law
Patents

Wish me luck.
Click to expand...

Fuck, I wish my Law School offered Internet Law. It's the one module I'd study in a heartbeat.

Had my Conflict of Laws/Private International Law exam a couple of days ago and now I've got English Law of Obligations on the 13th and then I'm free to enjoy the holidays [make summer internship applications].
 
G

Garret

Member
Ape Gone Insane said:
Fuck, I wish my Law School offered Internet Law. It's the one module I'd study in a heartbeat.

Had my Conflict of Laws/Private International Law exam a couple of days ago and now I've got English Law of Obligations on the 13th and then I'm free to enjoy the holidays [make summer internship applications].
Click to expand...

Am I the only who was left feeling that "Private International Law" was not at all international. It just seemed like a fixed set of rules to try and solve internally problems that had "foreign elements". You might as well call it just Private Law and explain it along the subjects that might arise those kind of problems...
 
L

LowEndTorque

Member
Puddles said:
I've got a question, hopefully someone here can answer it. I'm changing the names of people and companies in order to protect privacy.

Suppose Harriet, along with one other person, has recently formed a small business called Acme Industries that has incorporated in California. She is the President of said business. She wants to obtain a personal loan from XYZ bank which requires a co-signer on the promissory note. Harriet co-signs in the name of Acme Industries as the President.

Harriet defaults on the loan. Is Acme now liable to XYZ Bank? Acme can claim that Harriet lacked authority to co-sign for them, but it seems to me that XYZ could reasonably believe that Harriet, as President of the corporation, did have such authority, giving her apparent authority and making Acme liable.

Acme might claim that Harriet's action was ultra vires, but would they not still be liable since Harriet had agency by estoppel?
Click to expand...

There is a three-part test applied to determine if the principal is liable to a claimant due to apparent authority.

On the third part of the test, the plaintiff must prove that they were justified in assuming that the agent was acting on behalf of the principal.

Here, ACME could raise a fuss and make a hard challenge to XYZ. Since the loan was a personal loan rather than a business loan and Harriet basically co-signed for herself, how could they be justified in assuming this? Is the mere fact that she was the president enough to justify that they honestly believed she was acting on behalf of ACME for a personal loan?

On the second issue, my guess is the agency by estoppel argument probably wouldn't fly. My understanding of agency by estoppel is that it isn't absolute and there are limits to it with respect to the liability of a principal to a third party.

I don't think a claimant can recover from the principal unless the agent was acting within the scope of their authority. Here, Harriet was involved in self dealing and thus breaching her duties as an agent. Whether ACME could be held liable would depend on the scope of authority they gave to Harriet, which probably didn't include self-dealing. The ultra vires argument would probably be a solid defense for ACME.

I'm just a lowly 1L in first semester though, so take it with several grains of salt.

Best thing to do would be to look up some case law on this. You might find cases with contradictory judgments and analyse how each side might try to use a different case to their advantage.
 
G

genjiZERO

Member
ZackieChan said:
Thanks for the advice. Were they paying for your Barbri?

My fear is that I am making the biggest mistake of my life...but I'll probably be okay either way. I guess one of the issues is getting practice Multiple Choice questions and Essays, which I don't have. I could probably just jack my roommate's.
Click to expand...

Another advantage of Barbri is that it gives you the standard answers for the exam. Part of their technique is to get bar takers to answer as uniformly as possible so that the graders glaze over.
 
A

Ape Gone Insane

Member
Garret said:
Am I the only who was left feeling that "Private International Law" was not at all international. It just seemed like a fixed set of rules to try and solve internally problems that had "foreign elements". You might as well call it just Private Law and explain it along the subjects that might arise those kind of problems...
Click to expand...

What sort of things did you cover?

We covered rules on domicile/habitual residence, jurisdiction of courts and choice of law. So as well as 'internal rules' on foreign matters, that included international instruments such as Brussels I, Brussels IIa, Rome I Regulation and the Hague Convention on Child Abduction.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I found it was fundamentally different to what I had studied previously and had a huge international angle especially with the close proximity our law has with European Union law. Was it different over in Argentina?
 
G

Garret

Member
Ape Gone Insane said:
What sort of things did you cover?

We covered rules on domicile/habitual residence, jurisdiction of courts and choice of law. So as well as 'internal rules' on foreign matters, that included international instruments such as Brussels I, Brussels IIa, Rome I Regulation and the Hague Convention on Child Abduction.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I found it was fundamentally different to what I had studied previously and had a huge international angle especially with the close proximity our law has with European Union law. Was it different over in Argentina?
Click to expand...

Yeah, we covered those rules as well. Werner Goldschmidt (the author that everyone here seems to follow. German-born, Spanish-raised, Argentinian jurist) calls them "puntos de contacto" or "points of contact/connection". They are an important subject in what they refer to as the "General Part" of the Private International Law.

In the "Special Part", they go through the whole of the Civil and Commercial Law (persons, corporations, family, marriage, death, etc). There they teach you about the Montevideo Treaties, The Hague conventions and all that.

I guess they must be better at showing the more important and practical aspects of this branch of Law, with being inside the EU. Here, alas, it's just like memorizing information and cases (and so sad, because that was my last subject to get the degree).
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
First exam of the semester in 2 hours. Sittin here in the library tryin to review but I'm just nervous as hell. 40 multiple choice questions. Class is Secured Transactions. See you on the other side, Law-GAF.
 
A

Ape Gone Insane

Member
Pollux said:
First exam of the semester in 2 hours. Sittin here in the library tryin to review but I'm just nervous as hell. 40 multiple choice questions. Class is Secured Transactions. See you on the other side, Law-GAF.
Click to expand...

Frank the Great said:
good luck man!

i have criminal procedure tonight. 100 multiple choice questions. i only really need to get a 55 to pass. dat curve.
Click to expand...

Good luck.

Is it negative marking? Negative marking can be a bitch.
 
L

LowEndTorque

Member
Do you guys write your exams using Exam4 software?

It's really annoying that you can't look over your exam once it's submitted. Just wrote my 1st law exam and I'm hurting to read it over to see if I missed any issues. It was such a time crunched pressure cooker I forgot half of what I wrote down.
 
B

brucewaynegretzky

Member
LowEndTorque said:
Do you guys write your exams using Exam4 software?

It's really annoying that you can't look over your exam once it's submitted. Just wrote my 1st law exam and I'm hurting to read it over to see if I missed any issues. It was such a time crunched pressure cooker I forgot half of what I wrote down.
Click to expand...

You don't want to look. You just think you do.
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
LowEndTorque said:
Do you guys write your exams using Exam4 software?

It's really annoying that you can't look over your exam once it's submitted. Just wrote my 1st law exam and I'm hurting to read it over to see if I missed any issues. It was such a time crunched pressure cooker I forgot half of what I wrote down.
Click to expand...

You missed issues. That's just a fact of life. Just move on to the next one. Forget this one ever happened. There's no use worrying about it.
 
M

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
LowEndTorque said:
Do you guys write your exams using Exam4 software?

It's really annoying that you can't look over your exam once it's submitted. Just wrote my 1st law exam and I'm hurting to read it over to see if I missed any issues. It was such a time crunched pressure cooker I forgot half of what I wrote down.
Click to expand...
We used ExamSoft. And for an unlucky percentage of my class, that software was the devil.
 
C

chrisisawesome

Member
I can't believe I'm just about done law school. I have ONE more written final left, and then a paper due a few days later. What a crazy few years it's been. So happy to be finishing. Bar studying starts in january...thats going to be rough.
 
A

Arksy

Member
For you American lawyers. Just how bad is the bar exam? I'm tempted to want to practice in the US.

I hear for young lawyers you're very much tied to the state you're admitted in with little room to manoeuvre. Is that true?
 
S

SlickShoesRUCrazy

Member
Arksy said:
For you American lawyers. Just how bad is the bar exam? I'm tempted to want to practice in the US.

I hear for young lawyers you're very much tied to the state you're admitted in with little room to manoeuvre. Is that true?
Click to expand...

difficulty depends on the state. California and New York are considered to have the most difficult bar exams in the nation.

Generally, you are tied to the state which you are admitted in. Though some states do offer reciprocity and accept attorneys that are in good standing from other states, but generally, it's not uncommon to have to retake the bar.

Have a friend that has been practicing in California for 6 years, just passed the bar in New York a few weeks ago.
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
Arksy said:
For you American lawyers. Just how bad is the bar exam? I'm tempted to want to practice in the US.

I hear for young lawyers you're very much tied to the state you're admitted in with little room to manoeuvre. Is that true?
Click to expand...

Kind of. You can pro hac in most places for one matter, but if you want to practice a lot in a state you'll need to get admitted. A lot of states will let you waive in if you've been practicing for a while.
 
S

SouSouRocket

Member
Passed the MPRE with a 122, aww yeah :D. I was so scared I wasn't going to pass I did like a hundred review questions and three practice exams. Probably overdid it.

Just need to pass my Corporations final... it's 3L year and I'm only interested in crim and family law so I didn't pay a lick of attention in that class. It's open-outline and I'm taking it pass-fail (a C+ through D- = low pass) so I feel like I should be able to pass, but then again it's Corporations. :/ It's pretty brutal.

Can't believe I'm finally almost done! One more semester left after this... it'll be the best semester ever. Only two real classes, no days that start before noon (except for court dates) and 3 days off a week. :D No exams or papers next semester either! Clinic will probably be my only source of stress.
 
A

Arksy

Member
I just took a look at the essay questions for the New York bar. Doesn't seem to bad. They're structured exactly like problem questions are structured in Australian Law Schools. It's just a matter of knowing local New York law.

Which hopefully as a fellow common law country isn't too far apart from Australia.
 
A

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
When moving, you can do reciprocity but not for some of the big states -- but tons of smaller states which is nice.

You can also register as in-house counsel which is what I do.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Oh god Barbri starts in a week...do I really want to do this? Really?
 
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