Lead dev of Khazan: ""Games are meant to be engaging, not exhausting [..] otherwise players will quit"

cormack12

Gold Member
Source: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/ac...-relief-players-will-eventually-want-to-quit/

We’re in what is roughly our 14th year of every game that’s difficult being called 'Dark Souls,' so it’s pretty safe to say that one of the main things associated with the soulslike genre is difficulty.

Lee was later asked at what point does difficulty become too punishing and stop being fun. The director responded, "When the risk outweighs the reward, difficulty stops being engaging and starts feeling unfair. Balance is key. If a player takes on a high-risk challenge and succeeds, but the reward is too low, the experience becomes frustrating rather than satisfying. Games are meant to be engaging, not exhausting. If stress keeps piling up without relief, players will eventually want to quit. This is what we consider punishing rather than challenging. Likewise, when the relationship between challenge and reward breaks down, the game loses its meaning and becomes repetitive."
 

Bartski

Gold Member
Sarcastic Sarcasm GIF
 

Crayon

Member
People have a range of tolerance for difficulty. Time demands, tolerance to repetition, etc.

If you really want to progress to feel accomplished, then getting stuck on difficult parts is frustrating, even if you experience the hype of finally overcoming. For some people, they go into a hard game expecting to die and die again so it's not so bad. They probably have a better appreciation of doing a little better each time they lose.

For a game's part, though - Difficulty is going to put more pressure on the mechanics. It they shine, that's good. If they get exposed as a mess, that's not. A lot of games can hide their gameplay flaws by making the difficulty low enough that nobody has to push (and attempt to abuse) the mechanics.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Then why was the demo hard as absolute fuck? I quit at the first mini boss

Yet the demo was yet another "difficult" Soulslike as if we didn’t have enough of those to go around.

I didn't play the demo enough, but I thought it has a difficulty option? Just that it's locked until you do a certain mission, I guess.

Assuming that mission isn't in the demo, then?
 

cormack12

Gold Member
People have a range of tolerance for difficulty. Time demands, tolerance to repetition, etc.

If you really want to progress to feel accomplished, then getting stuck on difficult parts is frustrating, even if you experience the hype of finally overcoming. For some people, they go into a hard game expecting to die and die again so it's not so bad. They probably have a better appreciation of doing a little better each time they lose.

For a game's part, though - Difficulty is going to put more pressure on the mechanics. It they shine, that's good. If they get exposed as a mess, that's not. A lot of games can hide their gameplay flaws by making the difficulty low enough that nobody has to push (and attempt to abuse) the mechanics.
I think hardly anyone wants to go through the experience of a long drawn out beat down and eventually fail because of some new 'phase' or 'move' that's introduced late.

I think people are generally accepting of the death and retry loop if it's snappy (like Lethal enemies in GoT, or in Ori, which is challenging).

These games now are pretty much attrition and time heavy just because of the imbalance in damage and health pools.
 

Crayon

Member
I think hardly anyone wants to go through the experience of a long drawn out beat down and eventually fail because of some new 'phase' or 'move' that's introduced late.

I think people are generally accepting of the death and retry loop if it's snappy (like Lethal enemies in GoT, or in Ori, which is challenging).

These games now are pretty much attrition and time heavy just because of the imbalance in damage and health pools.

Idk about "hardly anybody". In the $70 game realm, it's definitely the minority of people. In the $40+ range, there is a bigger audience for it. Either way, it's enough to be worth releasing. NG2B just came out to a good reception, and that is a hard game that doesn't have much to soften it like souls or rogue mechanics. U ded, start over.

I'm hooked on a game rn that is hard and sends you through fucking gauntlets between checkpoints with no consolation prize if you die. I can explain the appeal pretty easy - Repeating the same well-designed section is fun because the gameplay carries hard. I am already having fun somewhere in the middle of a learning curve because I keep getting better. Earlier sections that I was blowing through were not as interesting as the one I get stuck on.

So the audience is there, but probably not in numbers that can justify $70 productions. Most stuff doesn't, though.
 
Yet the demo was yet another "difficult" Soulslike as if we didn’t have enough of those to go around.
Outside of Fromsoftware games, there have only been a handful of AAA "Souls" type games

Nioh 1/2
Stellar Blade
Lies of P
Black Myth Wu Kong

The people bitching about how there are way too many don't know what they are talking about. Also, all of those games above play quite differently from one another. Just admit you don't like pure action games, or the challenging nature of them, or the idea of losing XP after death ect.. Don't act like the genre has become stale, when it hasn't at all

The First Beserker demo is amazing. It's combat feels simular to Nioh and Sekiro, but very unique in its own right
 

Traxtech

Member
The demo was fantastic, took awhile to get used to the stamina usage and it was getting me killed, as you can't just spam attacks and dodge and expect to win because it's unforgiving. Once I managed that, was smooth sailing and even 1 shot the final boss.

Can't wait for release!
 

Pilsner1977

Neo Member
I loved the demo. Definitely thinking of picking it up, but I love the genre. I agree about the Sekiro/Nioh vibe. Also, I’m not the greatest at these games but I didn’t find it too hard once I figured out the system. You can’t play it like a souls game.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Outside of Fromsoftware games, there have only been a handful of AAA "Souls" type games
And why would you exclude the myriads of non-AA? They don't exist somehow?
Nioh 1/2
Stellar Blade
Lies of P
Black Myth Wu Kong
On what planet are those games AAA? Only BMW is AAA. You also forgot Lords of the Fallen which has a higher budget than this entire list.

Lords of the Fallen
Lords of the Fallen 2023
The Surge
The Surge 2
Darksiders III
Mortal Shell
Lies of P
First Berserker Khazan
Nioh
Nioh 2
Wo Long
Hollow Knight (2D)
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls II, Bloodborne, Dark Souls III, Sekiro, Elden Ring

That list is a heck of a lot longer than you suggest, isn't it? If you ignore the non "AAA" (most of them) and From's entire catalog, there aren't that many games. No shit.
The people bitching about how there are way too many don't know what they are talking about. Also, all of those games above play quite differently from one another. Just admit you don't like pure action games, or the challenging nature of them, or the idea of losing XP after death ect.. Don't act like the genre has become stale, when it hasn't at all
Nah, I love action games, but most Soulslike are absolute garbage who don't even understand what made the series so popular in the first place and that's why so many of them fail. My favorite action games are actually more in the vein of Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta. Most Soulslike eschew skill in favor of rolling or parrying. Almost no intricacies or depth in the combo system and the combat turns into a ridiculous game of rollie pollie. I'm saying that as someone who enjoyed BMW.
The First Beserker demo is amazing. It's combat feels simular to Nioh and Sekiro, but very unique in its own right
Don't give a shit about Souls game 497574. I saw what the game was trying to do and got bored right away.
 
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I think hardly anyone wants to go through the experience of a long drawn out beat down and eventually fail because of some new 'phase' or 'move' that's introduced late.

I think people are generally accepting of the death and retry loop if it's snappy (like Lethal enemies in GoT, or in Ori, which is challenging).

These games now are pretty much attrition and time heavy just because of the imbalance in damage and health pools.

What's GoT?
 

Zacfoldor

Member
This game is going to be fuckin elite and souls haters go play Apple Arcade on your Mac. This is what most pc gamers just don’t understand. You love the concept but you scared of the game. Can’t win if you don’t play.
 
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Ceadeus

Member
"If a player takes on a high-risk challenge and succeeds, but the reward is too low, the experience becomes frustrating"

That's Tloz tears of the kingdom. You fight your way throughout barren lands doing tedious traversal shit for bread crumbles as reward.
 

R6Rider

Gold Member
Demo was okay, I just didn't like they went the Nioh loot route.

More interested in AI Limit which comes out the same. Also has a demo for those curious.
 
I don't play games for rewards, if your game is shit, rewards mean jack shit. The "reward" should be mastering the mechanics and progressing. Souls games give you everything you need to get through them, if you can't seem to overcome challenges, look outside your typical strategy, experiment with what the game allows.

To this day, the only Fromsoft game of this era that is actually difficult is Sekiro. You can't level up or find better gear to get you over your own skill barrier.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
If Soulslike just means an Action game with RPG elements that are in basically every modern game, sure.
No, this isn’t what makes it Soulslike.

Respawning enemies upon death

Fixed difficulty

Stamina management

Challenging combat and level design

Emphasis on boss battles and feeling rewarded for overcoming them

Limited healing that is slow and needs to be timed

Cryptic side quests

Checkpoint system identical to Souls games

The only thing Wukong doesn’t do is taking your xp upon death. Otherwise, it has all the hallmarks of a Soulslike.

A Soulslike with no death penalty?
The penalty is respawning enemies and being sent back to the last checkpoint.
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Wow. Super Mario Bros is a Soulslike
So is Ghost-N-Goblins a Soulslike too because it’s challenging? Or did you figure out that Soulslike is a collection of design choices first put together by Demon’s Souls? I like how you pick out one point and ignore the rest to try and be a smartass.
 

DaciaJC

Gold Member
The director responded, "When the risk outweighs the reward, difficulty stops being engaging and starts feeling unfair. Balance is key. If a player takes on a high-risk challenge and succeeds, but the reward is too low, the experience becomes frustrating rather than satisfying."

Hmm, not sure I agree here. I think a lot of players would consider the feeling of accomplishment that comes from triumphing over a difficult boss sufficient reward in and of itself, and conversely the prospect of getting a neat reward for defeating a boss won't necessarily make the experience of fighting one any less frustrating if it's poorly designed. Like, if Malenia dropped a super-duper useful great rune upon her death, would that somehow make up for her bullshit Waterfowl Dance shenanigans that caused me to die so many times? I wouldn't say so, personally.
 
No, this isn’t what makes it Soulslike.

Respawning enemies upon death

Fixed difficulty

Stamina management

Challenging combat and level design

Emphasis on boss battles and feeling rewarded for overcoming them

Limited healing that is slow and needs to be timed

Cryptic side quests

Checkpoint system identical to Souls games

The only thing Wukong doesn’t do is taking your xp upon death. Otherwise, it has all the hallmarks of a Soulslike.


The penalty is respawning enemies and being sent back to the last checkpoint.

Nah. The #1 defining feature of a soulslike is currency/xp being gathered from defeating enemies, and lost upon death. Without that, it can't be called a soulslike imo.

And please tell me more about the slow, limited, carefully timed healing in Demon's Souls.
 

Ansphn

Member
No, this isn’t what makes it Soulslike.

Respawning enemies upon death

Fixed difficulty

Stamina management

Challenging combat and level design

Emphasis on boss battles and feeling rewarded for overcoming them

Limited healing that is slow and needs to be timed

Cryptic side quests

Checkpoint system identical to Souls games

The only thing Wukong doesn’t do is taking your xp upon death. Otherwise, it has all the hallmarks of a Soulslike.


The penalty is respawning enemies and being sent back to the last checkpoint.
Black Myth didn't make you limit stamina. Nothing close to a Souls- like stamina management.
 
The reward statement in the OP really hits home for me. So many times in Elden ring I would get through some annoying fight or dungeon and the reward would be something that my build couldn’t even use. More often the not actually.
It made me want to stop exploring at all, and eventually I did and dropped the game (there were other reasons too) still to this day have never beaten the game but I got 130 hours out of it, so there’s that.
I just don’t care about these kinds of games anymore. My life has plenty of meaning in every aspect, realtionships, job, other hobbies, ect, I don’t need a difficult game to make me feel like I’ve accomplished something. The older I get the more I view these souls and soul like games as committing the most cardinal sin that any game can commit - not respecting a players time. I’m not against hard games, I love a good challenge, but a game has to be more then just hard for being hards sake. That doesn’t cut it for me. Because in the end, hard for hardness sake really just means annoying enemies or mechanics, needlessly inflated health pools, unfair/cheap enemies/mechanics, ect.
 

Lorianus

Member
Well people only have to tryhard the first boss after that you unlock a easier difficulty, pretty good compromise i think.
 
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kevboard

Member
Didn't play Stellar Blade, but Wukong is 100% a Souslike.

Wukong is not a souls like.
it has no soul retrieval system and is not an RPG.
the soul retrieval system being the main factor that makes a game even eligible in the first place.

Souls-Like = RPG + User Activated Respawn Points + Enemies give currency + Losing Currency Upon Death with 1 chance to get it back

(Stellar Blade also is also no souls like btw)
 
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Paasei

Member
The developer is right. Yet another soulslike so I quit because it's not engaging for me anymore/for a while. I'm souls-fatigued.
 

RafterXL

Member
The game is brilliant, and I love how many crybabies there are about Soul likes, and how there are too many. STFU. There are 130 Final Fantasy games, and that's a single IP, no one ever talks about being too many JRPGs. There are a billion shooters, another billion third person games, who are people tying to kid? You don't like the genre?...fine, go play something else.
 

kevboard

Member
The game is brilliant, and I love how many crybabies there are about Soul likes, and how there are too many. STFU. There are 130 Final Fantasy games, and that's a single IP, no one ever talks about being too many JRPGs. There are a billion shooters, another billion third person games, who are people tying to kid? You don't like the genre?...fine, go play something else.

there aren't even that many Souls Likes (at least not many AA/AAA budget ones), just a lot of games that people falsely call Souls Likes.

I have no joke seen Souls Like Tier lists where people put fucking Kena: Bridge of Spirits in it... anything that is hard and has a dodge roll these days is a souls like, it has almost lost all meaning... it's not as bad as Action Adventure yet, but it's slowly getting there.
 
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Peroroncino

Member
The final boss was an HP sponge who could 2 shot you, and I literally wanted to quit, but was simply too stubborn to do so. What is he talking about lol.

That last demo boss was definitely the 'bad' kind of difficult, after I beat him I deleted it and was like "yeah, I ain't paying for more of that nonsense". Premise looks cool though.
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Black Myth didn't make you limit stamina. Nothing close to a Souls- like stamina management.
What are you talking about? Did you even play the game? BMW has a stamina bar and its purpose is identical to Souls games, ie, you can’t attack, dodge, or perform other moves with it and you have to manage it. Can’t just attack with impunity.

Wukong is not a souls like.
it has no soul retrieval system and is not an RPG.
the soul retrieval system being the main factor that makes a game even eligible in the first place.

Souls-Like = RPG + User Activated Respawn Points + Enemies give currency + Losing Currency Upon Death with 1 chance to get it back

(Stellar Blade also is also no souls like btw)
Wukong is most definitely an action RPG. Soulslike have more elements than what you claim as well. It’s the combination of all of them that makes a game a Soulslike. Just because it’s missing one element doesn’t make it not one.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Nah. The #1 defining feature of a soulslike is currency/xp being gathered from defeating enemies, and lost upon death. Without that, it can't be called a soulslike imo.

And please tell me more about the slow, limited, carefully timed healing in Demon's Souls.
You mean the limited grass that has a long healing animation that can be interrupted just like in the other games? You can’t just heal at any moment in Demon’s Souls. The healing system is identical to Bloodborne and close to the other Souls games (and BMW) except that you don’t recover charges upon death. You have to kill enemies for them.

Contrast that with a game like NG where you pause and heal instantly or GOW where enemies or objects drop health.
 
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You mean the limited grass that has a long healing animation that can be interrupted just like in the other games? You can’t just heal at any moment in Demon’s Souls. The healing system is identical to Bloodborne and close to the other Souls games (and BMW) except that you don’t recover charges upon death. You have to kill enemies for them.

Contrast that with a game like NG where you pause and heal instantly or GOW where enemies or objects drop health.

Grass in OG DS was extremely quick, easy to farm, and essentially weightless so you could carry stacks of 99 if you wanted to.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Grass in OG DS was extremely quick, easy to farm, and essentially weightless so you could carry stacks of 99 if you wanted to.
You stil had to farm them or buy the ones worth having such as Full Moon or Dark Moon. They didn’t refill and you could run out, especially in the early game. It’s the same system in Bloodborne, except that Blood Vials have a 20 limit.

You implied healing in Demon’s Souls isn’t slow and limited, but it absolutely is. Grass doesn’t refill and you need to time when you heal and the animation is slow.
 

Arachnid

Member
I quit as soon as I see it’s another shitty “souslike”. File it next to metroidvania. The two gayest genres that copycat games love. Fuck that noise.
I really hope your name isn't referring to the GoW games, because it copied both of those lmao
 
You stil had to farm them or buy the ones worth having such as Full Moon or Dark Moon. They didn’t refill and you could run out, especially in the early game. It’s the same system in Bloodborne, except that Blood Vials have a 20 limit.

You implied healing in Demon’s Souls isn’t slow and limited, but it absolutely is. Grass doesn’t refill and you need to time when you heal and the animation is slow.

The amination is not slow and the "limit" is huge. PVP was a pain in the ass back then because people could just munch grass all day.
 

Juza

Member
After playing his game's demo, I didn't see any balance between difficulty and rewards. The gameplay follows a predictable pattern and is easy to get used to. there was no challenge, and the rewards felt pointless.
 
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