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[Mostmanlyman]

Internet in general was weird for me last night. Disconnected from pvp net, and like half the Web pages I normal visit were timing out and half the others were just fine.

For me the internet was fine, my brother who was sitting like 10 ft away from me was fine and he got disconnected from pvp.net.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

How many stacks did you have by the end?

40

 

[PhillipCostigan]

So I've played a few Shen games now, got the play pattern down that I think is the right way to play him, but I still don't feel I know his limits.

Like, I know I can shit on most people at level 2, and even level 1 to an extent. Can bully them in lane til around level 6 when they get their combat ults.

In the mid-late game though I feel like I can't 1 v 1 as well as I should be able to. Not sure whether it's runes, item build order or what.

Any Shen top players that can take a look at these games and point out some of the things I'm doing wrong (if there is anything obvious in the match histories). cs and stuff is probably pretty low, but I'm still getting used to playing again.

Game 1
Game 2

Game 2 I disrespected Darius and misplayed a level 1/2 fight, but jthe guy got really cocky so I just got Dob to repeat gank a couple times.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

lmao

 

[pigeon]

So I've played a few Shen games now, got the play pattern down that I think is the right way to play him, but I still don't feel I know his limits.

Like, I know I can shit on most people at level 2, and even level 1 to an extent. Can bully them in lane til around level 6 when they get their combat ults.

In the mid-late game though I feel like I can't 1 v 1 as well as I should be able to. Not sure whether it's runes, item build order or what.

Any Shen top players that can take a look at these games and point out some of the things I'm doing wrong (if there is anything obvious in the match histories). cs and stuff is probably pretty low, but I'm still getting used to playing again.

Game 1
Game 2

Game 2 I disrespected Darius and misplayed a level 1/2 fight, but jthe guy got really cocky so I just got Dob to repeat gank a couple times.

I would suggest that Thornmail is not great on Shen. Shen scales with max health, especially once you build Titanic, so items like Zzrot or Thornmail don't help him scale much.

If you need to stack armor after Sunfire I'd do DMP or Randuin's.

 

[zkylon]

i wonder if shen wouldn't be a better champion if he used mana and had access to items like frozen heart and iceborn gauntlet

i'm not entirely sure how his current kit works cos i don't really play him but energy as a resource is meant to gate low cooldown abilities like akali's or zed's, while shen's not really that style of a champion?

i should read more into his rework but at least pre-rework it always felt to me like it was an arbitrary thematic thing and didn't make a huge sense for gameplay (and also pushed him towards his old q free harass pattern)

 

[Quonny]

So I've played a few Shen games now, got the play pattern down that I think is the right way to play him, but I still don't feel I know his limits.

Like, I know I can shit on most people at level 2, and even level 1 to an extent. Can bully them in lane til around level 6 when they get their combat ults.

In the mid-late game though I feel like I can't 1 v 1 as well as I should be able to. Not sure whether it's runes, item build order or what.

Any Shen top players that can take a look at these games and point out some of the things I'm doing wrong (if there is anything obvious in the match histories). cs and stuff is probably pretty low, but I'm still getting used to playing again.

Game 1
Game 2

Game 2 I disrespected Darius and misplayed a level 1/2 fight, but jthe guy got really cocky so I just got Dob to repeat gank a couple times.

I think I have a pretty good handle on Shen.

In my opinion, he thrives on a bit of CDR. His E makes his energy issues basically non-existent, so you want as much CDR so you can spam your abilities more often, move your spirit sword around, and use your ult more often.

I actually build CDR boots on him. The summoner cooldown is very useful for engaging wtih flash taunt and defending with teleport. I usually also get one other item with CDR.

As weird as it is, I find Banner of Command better on Shen than Zz'Rot. First, it has CDR. It also gives HP, which is great for his passive and Titanic. Adds a bit of ability power, since his ult and Q scale off AP. His ult has 1.3 AP scaling, which is nuts. Plus it helps in the split push, and unlike Zz'Rot, it doesn't have a "range". And that aura is really nice for when you ult in. The ult itself gives a shield, then when you're actually there, you make your team beefier.

But that's just me.

i wonder if shen wouldn't be a better champion if he used mana and had access to items like frozen heart and iceborn gauntlet

i'm not entirely sure how his current kit works cos i don't really play him but energy as a resource is meant to gate low cooldown abilities like akali's or zed's

i should read more into his rework but at least pre-rework it always felt to me like it was an arbitrary thematic thing and didn't make a huge sense for gameplay (and also pushed him towards his old q free harass pattern)

This is currently a problem with Shen. He is not gated by energy because of the passive on his E. He actually MAKES energy back from his Q at like level 13 or something.

 

[dimb]

So I've played a few Shen games now, got the play pattern down that I think is the right way to play him, but I still don't feel I know his limits.

Nowhere near enough HP if you go Zz'rot + Thornmail. Have to be cognisant of the limitations not running Swifties vs. someone who grabs them are too. If someone thinks Shen isn't gated by energy they're not playing the same champion as me.

 

[zkylon]

This is currently a problem with Shen. He is not gated by energy because of the passive on his E. He actually MAKES energy back from his Q at like level 13 or something.

i'm not sure if that's a problem

the way rito used energy for him is "you miss taunt, you're fucked". now he seems to have a big of a backup pattern if he misses cos he regains energy off q hits. maybe that should be tuned a bit but it seems to make a bit of sense

it just feels awkward for tank champions to not have access to those items, but maybe it's not on the champion and more on the items

why are frozen fist and fh exclusive to mana champions, really?

Nowhere near enough HP if you go Zz'rot + Thornmail. Have to be cognisant of the limitations not running Swifties vs. someone who grabs them are too. If someone thinks Shen isn't gated by energy they're not playing the same champion as me.

i didn't say he wasn't gated by energy, i said that energy felt like an awkward resource for him because it blocks him off itemizations

and like i say above, that might be a problem with itemization more than shen himself

 

[dimb]

Shen's issues with energy regen highlight themselves vs. ranged champions or champions that are capable of kiting him. It's not that bad but it's very noticeable when you can't auto someone.

i didn't say he wasn't gated by energy, i said that energy felt like an awkward resource for him because it blocks him off itemizations

and like i say above, that might be a problem with itemization more than shen himself

Talking about other people. I like energy on Shen, and it's a good differentiator. No reason to buy CDR or waste gold on things like mana. Shen is stronger for not having mana. There is no shortage of strong armor based items for Shen to choose from.

 

[zkylon]

Shen's issues with energy regen highlight themselves vs. ranged champions or champions that are capable of kiting him. It's not that bad but it's very noticeable when you can't auto someone.

Talking about other people. I like energy on Shen, and it's a good differentiator. No reason to buy CDR or waste gold on things like mana. Shen is stronger for not having mana. There is no shortage of strong armor based items for Shen to choose from.

yeah just thinking about it out loud as i tend to do and rereading his kit i kind of like it too

i'm wondering if mana is just a poor stat to put into fh/frozen fist rather than being a champion problem, specially since nowadays a lot of champions like malphite feel like they hurt less for mana than before? tho i'm not sure how real that is vs how i feel from champions like him or sion or nautilus rushing dmp or sunfire or whatever

 

[Quonny]

I dunno, I think CDR is bonkers good on Shen. But I'm only in Gold II, so maybe higher up they kite better and I can't get my energy back.

But I've had enormous success getting ~20% CDR.

 

[Mostmanlyman]

I dunno, I think CDR is bonkers good on Shen. But I'm only in Gold II, so maybe higher up they kite better and I can't get my energy back.

But I've had enormous success getting ~20% CDR.

what is your build path on him?

 

[Quonny]

what is your build path on him?

Sunfire => CDR Boots => Titanic if ahead / Banner if behind ==> Titanic if behind / Banner if ahead ==> Thornmail ==> probably DMP / Banshee's, but I've never gotten this far, game always ends

 

[dimb]

CDR is not bad on Shen, but I just don't see that much value in itemizing for it when it doesn't boost Q+shield interaction very much. There are still situations to buy items with CDR on them, but it's not a stat I would really want to prioritize over some of the very strong items available to top laners right now. You can get strong flat stats + strong item effects with non-CDR items.

 

[Quonny]

CDR is not bad on Shen, but I just don't see that much value in itemizing for it when it doesn't boost Q+shield interaction very much. There are still situations to buy items with CDR on them, but it's not a stat I would really want to prioritize over some of the very strong items available to top laners right now. You can get strong flat stats + strong item effects with non-CDR items.

I agree with this. I don't go out of my way to itemize CDR (except the boots, which I will switch for Tenacity Boots if the team does have a ton of CC), but I want my ult to be up as much as possible, especially in lower ELOs where people are constantly getting caught. I swear I spam my ult basically on cooldown. And it's always on the damn ADC.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I would suggest that Thornmail is not great on Shen. Shen scales with max health, especially once you build Titanic, so items like Zzrot or Thornmail don't help him scale much.

If you need to stack armor after Sunfire I'd do DMP or Randuin's.

Yeah, it was an attempt to be better able to fight Garen, but a poor choice. Garen's not an auto attacker and simply have a Randuin's for the slow would have been a lot better.

I think I have a pretty good handle on Shen.

In my opinion, he thrives on a bit of CDR. His E makes his energy issues basically non-existent, so you want as much CDR so you can spam your abilities more often, move your spirit sword around, and use your ult more often.

I actually build CDR boots on him. The summoner cooldown is very useful for engaging wtih flash taunt and defending with teleport. I usually also get one other item with CDR.

As weird as it is, I find Banner of Command better on Shen than Zz'Rot. First, it has CDR. It also gives HP, which is great for his passive and Titanic. Adds a bit of ability power, since his ult and Q scale off AP. His ult has 1.3 AP scaling, which is nuts. Plus it helps in the split push, and unlike Zz'Rot, it doesn't have a "range". And that aura is really nice for when you ult in. The ult itself gives a shield, then when you're actually there, you make your team beefier.

But that's just me.

This is currently a problem with Shen. He is not gated by energy because of the passive on his E. He actually MAKES energy back from his Q at like level 13 or something.

I'm running CDR per level runes but could probably fit some more CDR in there. Not sure about CDR boots though. The sheer amount of tenacity you can get now through masteries and merc treads just feels like a better buy to me. If I had gotten merc treads earlier I probably could have dealt with the silence better.

Nowhere near enough HP if you go Zz'rot + Thornmail. Have to be cognisant of the limitations not running Swifties vs. someone who grabs them are too. If someone thinks Shen isn't gated by energy they're not playing the same champion as me.

Yeah, Should have stuck with Zz'rot only, or maybe not even that. Thornmail was a poor purchase. Wonder if I should bother with Titanic or get it earlier.

 

[dimb]

Yeah, Should have stuck with Zz'rot only, or maybe not even that. Thornmail was a poor purchase. Wonder if I should bother with Titanic or get it earlier.

There is less pressure to buy early Titanic post nerf, since its relying more on your HP pool to really push out damage.

 

[pigeon]

i'm not sure if that's a problem

the way rito used energy for him is "you miss taunt, you're fucked". now he seems to have a big of a backup pattern if he misses cos he regains energy off q hits. maybe that should be tuned a bit but it seems to make a bit of sense

it just feels awkward for tank champions to not have access to those items, but maybe it's not on the champion and more on the items

why are frozen fist and fh exclusive to mana champions, really?

This is actually a big weird itemization thing in my view. Frozen Heart is the only armor/CDR item in the game, and the huge pile of mana on it makes it inaccessible to a bunch of top laners.

Simultaneously there are top laners like Sion that have slightly weird build strategies because Frozen Heart is the only item they can build to get mana.

But at the same time there's like Cho'Gath and Nasus relying heavily on building Frozen Heart, literally perfectly designed for them by providing armor/CDR/mana and NOT wasting any itemization budget on health.

I want them to redo all the tank items the way they did ADCs, with a similar core item and then extenders. There's basically no consistent logic to most of them, and even when there is (Sunfire/DMP/Randuin's) the build paths themselves are inconsistent.

 

[Calvero]

lmao

holy...what in the world

 

[pigeon]

Yeah, Should have stuck with Zz'rot only, or maybe not even that. Thornmail was a poor purchase. Wonder if I should bother with Titanic or get it earlier.

I'm actually really torn on Zz'rot on Shen. The abilities on it are great for Shen but the stats on it are lackluster. I have sometimes built it like fifth item.

I almost always build Swifties on Shen even after the nerf, specifically because of how terrible it is when he gets kited, but I might be dumb.

 

[Ashhong]

So anybody have idea on when Project Lucian should go on sale? Didn't he come out at the same time as Leona? He wasn't on sale with her during the "early sale" last month

 

[Quonny]

I'm actually really torn on Zz'rot on Shen. The abilities on it are great for Shen but the stats on it are lackluster. I have sometimes built it like fifth item.

I almost always build Swifties on Shen even after the nerf, specifically because of how terrible it is when he gets kited, but I might be dumb.

You're probably right and I'm probably dumb, but I'm sticking with what's winning for me!

 

[garath]

So anybody have idea on when Project Lucian should go on sale? Didn't he come out at the same time as Leona? He wasn't on sale with her during the "early sale" last month

That's the same question I've been asking. It must be soon. I'm pretty sure I didnt miss the sale. I've been actively watching for it.

 

[Hard]

Daily reminder

Hired Gun > Project.

His guns actually sound like guns.

 

[Nekofrog]

the sound effects and particle animations on hired gun are really bad

his base skin sound effects and particles are fantastic. they look and sound like energy weapons

 

[Blizzard]

There is not a set route for the jungle. If a champion is strong but has slow clears you just take them to a lane or something because there's no need for them to jungle. I already know you're going to post about some Nautilus Devourer meme build and I don't care and your numbers would never track to what I expect a Devourer jungler to do.

So in other words, you post saying a champion is a poor choice because of poor clear speed, and then follow up by refusing to nail down numbers and saying you don't care and you've already decided you're right. This has not been a very productive discussion.

 

[zkylon]

This is actually a big weird itemization thing in my view. Frozen Heart is the only armor/CDR item in the game, and the huge pile of mana on it makes it inaccessible to a bunch of top laners.

Simultaneously there are top laners like Sion that have slightly weird build strategies because Frozen Heart is the only item they can build to get mana.

But at the same time there's like Cho'Gath and Nasus relying heavily on building Frozen Heart, literally perfectly designed for them by providing armor/CDR/mana and NOT wasting any itemization budget on health.

I want them to redo all the tank items the way they did ADCs, with a similar core item and then extenders. There's basically no consistent logic to most of them, and even when there is (Sunfire/DMP/Randuin's) the build paths themselves are inconsistent.

i think it's less problematic than old adc items and it's a established thing that mana and manaless champions have different buildpaths (see: there's no morellos for kat/akali as there is for lb/ahri) but for tanks it feels kind of strange

 

[dimb]

So in other words, you post saying a champion is a poor choice because of poor clear speed, and then follow up by refusing to nail down numbers and saying you don't care and you've already decided you're right. This has not been a very productive discussion.

You really have not changed at all.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

newt dcs for 30 minutes

we still win

 

[Newt]

You really have not changed at all.

GAF never changes.

newt dcs for 30 minutes

we still win

Somehow Graves manages a lower kill participation.

 

[Pancakes]

newt dcs for 30 minutes

we still win

S O R A K A

 

[Nekofrog]

dob has an NA account named dobbers huh

 

[Blizzard]

dob has an NA account named dobbers huh

Harry Potter mustn't go to Hogwarts!!!

 

[Ghost is Bad]

soraka was garbo

 

[Ashhong]

That's the same question I've been asking. It must be soon. I'm pretty sure I didnt miss the sale. I've been actively watching for it.

But it's not this month either. I thought these early sales were guaranteed to happen like a certain number of months from release? Should have come out with Leona..

 

[NihonTiger90]

I have no idea how we won this, other than by sheer will, Fizz's picks, and me not dying. We got our shit beat down so bad early game (Lux roaming all over the place, Cait's mismatch against Teemo, etc.)

 

[Quonny]

new soraka is even more annoying

Spoiler

i love it

 

[Orochinagis]

Nope, I have to stop trying to play Bard in ranked

 

[Mostmanlyman]

Nope, I have to stop trying to play Bard in ranked

But bard is good.

 

[Blizzard]

I've been playing a bunch of support Zyra and I have an item order question.

If you retreat before 1300 gold, is it better to get sightstone first, or the 500-gold spellthief upgrade? If the answer depends, how do you decide?

 

[Neol]

But bard is good.

But a bad bard is on the levels of a feeding Zed/Yasuo.

I've been playing a bunch of support Zyra and I have an item order question.

If you retreat before 1300 gold, is it better to get sightstone first, or the 500-gold spellthief upgrade? If the answer depends, how do you decide?

In general you should always go sightstone first since its by far the safest option.

There are times though where its fine to get the spellthief upgrade if your doing well in lane in poking/pressure and stuff. That being said you need to coordinate with your adc/jungle to ward the river. If anything if you do decide to get spellthief then grab a pink as well.

 

[Orochinagis]

But bard is good.

I usually get swarmed by enemy minions or my adc is busy farming when I do Q and AA

 

[Newt]

I rerolled the skins and got striker Lucian lol... At least it's an ADC.

 

[Hard]

How many re-rolls do you get on a skin? I got Reverse Annie from a free chest, but I already have Sweetheart.

 

[Newt]

How many re-rolls do you get on a skin? I got Reverse Annie from a free chest, but I already have Sweetheart.

You reroll 3 shards for a single skin that you get for sure. I could have gotten unmasked Kayle or some shit lol.

 

[Troubled Bat]

So, it's 3 for 1? I think I might just turn them into essence then.

Right now I have Hextech Janna, and Arcade Sona.

 

[Newt]

So, it's 3 for 1? I think I might just turn them into essence then.

Right now I have Hextech Janna, and Arcade Sona.

Well it depends, do you play support? Those are pretty good skins.

 

[Blizzard]

But a bad bard is on the levels of a feeding Zed/Yasuo.



In general you should always go sightstone first since its by far the safest option.

There are times though where its fine to get the spellthief upgrade if your doing well in lane in poking/pressure and stuff. That being said you need to coordinate with your adc/jungle to ward the river. If anything if you do decide to get spellthief then grab a pink as well.

That makes sense, thanks. I feel like 3 wards is so few, I have a related question. Back in the day, I feel like red sightstone was a very final upgrade, mostly useless.

Is it better to upgrade early nowadays for spellthief/hourglass actives?

 

[Troubled Bat]

Well it depends, do you play support? Those are pretty good skins.

I play every role. I'm not really crazy about those two skins. Honestly would rather have Frost Queen Janna, and DJ/Sweetheart Sona.