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League of Legends |OT11| going
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
i have the room but no money ;__;
Stone Ocean
Member
Tanks don't do less damage or are more mobile than bruisers lol they have similar gap closer CDs plus ranged CC, high base damage and low cooldowns. Tanks lose in burst but burst doesn't really matter as much as raw DPS with all the defensive stuff flying around.
Bruisers barely even exist anymore, they just build like tanks and do the same shit.
Bruisers barely even exist anymore, they just build like tanks and do the same shit.
Essentially this.
Yeah the nerf hit them very hard. Man, I miss Morde. but Skarner have been a rarity in my ELO.
lol I wasn't complaining about them, I was just saying that they don't have a specific place in League nowdays, but its probably because of nerfing.I was responding to the post above me complaining about juggernauts
Poppy is my least favorite champ in the game now though and if there is a tank that you can make a case for not needing much damage to still be effective naut is high on that list but I've talked about how much I dislike both of those champs before
Dreams-Visions
Member
which is sort of distressing given last Fall's concerted effort to give damage dealers better tools to deal with the tank meta. And yet here we are.
i agree, bruisers do have more burst
they also have less conditional cc, just more damage baked into the kit and a better ability to reach the backline
bruisers that still exist: wukong, vi, jax, irelia, xin zhao, hecarim
do you mean the juggernaut update? because all that did was begin the 'bruiser' item category
Surprise the tanks used all those tools instead lolol
edit: actually i was thinking of steraks but that was supposed to be a bruiser item i'm not sure what youre referring to
I do believe tanks should be able to do damage and be threatening but I can see it being frustrating as they reach that point super early with only two items. There definitely is a problem when a tank is doing significant damage early on in a game instead of the AP carries and bruisers who should on paper be the ones doing the damage.
Honestly the part of this meta that frustrates me the most is the pacing of the game. Yes they made it so games go faster but in doing so there having trouble balancing out power spikes of roles and champions. Its part of the reason why I feel bad for ADC's as this was supposed to be the return and yet the only ones I see botlane constantly is Jhin and Lucian since they seem to be the only ones that are able to do damage and stay relevant as the game goes on.
Yes there is Corki, Graves and Quinn but they have qualities that is super abusable in other lanes.
Honestly the part of this meta that frustrates me the most is the pacing of the game. Yes they made it so games go faster but in doing so there having trouble balancing out power spikes of roles and champions. Its part of the reason why I feel bad for ADC's as this was supposed to be the return and yet the only ones I see botlane constantly is Jhin and Lucian since they seem to be the only ones that are able to do damage and stay relevant as the game goes on.
Yes there is Corki, Graves and Quinn but they have qualities that is super abusable in other lanes.
I'm amazed at how salty you sound
the only juggernaut item that tanks really use is DMP. Tanks should not be building Steraks
if we want to move away from ADC = bot lane its ok that ADCs are strong in other lanes.
unless you're in pro play, theres a fair more strong bot lane carries than lucian and jhin
Eh? I was just poking fun at all the complaints of tanks doing "everything" I don't have a problem with tanks as a whole just a couple specific champs :/
guess i shoulda put /s instead of my lol spam
killatopak
Gold Member
LW really needs to be reverted. It used to be a much more used item in majority of lanes but now it's virtually used only by adcs.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I was referring to the update that brought us stuff like the two LW upgrades along with some nerfs to the play style.
I find it as difficult as it ever was to deal with comps that have 2 or 3 certified tanks in the late game. They just deal so much damage for having usually only 1 offensive item. Sometimes it feels like having less tanks is a losing proposition. Not every time of course, but some times. You just have to work so much harder as a non-tank than the tanks do to be successful.
killatopak
Gold Member
I really don't see the reason why though. I'm just not convinced of the decision.
It might have been a good decision early in the season but it has come to bite back now. It's basically the return on cinderhulk meta only worse. At least in cinderhulk meta only specific top lanes and junglers could use it but today everybody can be a tank and adcs are the most viable way to deal with them which is bad cause adcs don't get online until much later.
I always think its so interesting that we've gone through stuff just in the past few months that was just absolutely outrageous like rework graves, quinn, pantheon, every ap jungler in the game with runic echoes, etc etc but I don't remember people being even a fraction as upset about those things as people get about strong frontliners (since half the champs we are referring to arent even tanks regardless of how they build). Maybe I just don't remember the outrage but why does everyone get so much more upset about tanks than everything else?
If it's just the fact that its a perceived itemization problem and the entire thing can be solved by nerfing sunfire and ibg then i get that i guess
If it's just the fact that its a perceived itemization problem and the entire thing can be solved by nerfing sunfire and ibg then i get that i guess
I'm fine with ADC's being strong in other lanes I just feel people still lump those three as botlane carries which is not the case at all.
I think the fact that the only viable options in pro play are those two is a problem itself. A large fact of it has to be that a lot of the other botlane carries need 3/4 items in order to reach there power spike and at that point of the game your either losing or winning by a significant amount with how fast the game is now.
Lucian and Jhin are an exception because the first item they complete synergies extremly well with there kit so there able be relevant early as well as stay relevant. I can't think of any other ADC's that are able to do that which is why they are the only two being used.
killatopak
Gold Member
I'm pretty sure Sivir, Kalista, Ashe and Vayne are still used on pro play. At least on LCK.
Vayne is mostly picked against Sivir for the counter while Kalista is still pretty strong as long as she doesn't leave her oathsworn. Ashe on the other hand is for the pick comps.
Lucian is still the most picked one though. He's just so safe.
Vayne is mostly picked against Sivir for the counter while Kalista is still pretty strong as long as she doesn't leave her oathsworn. Ashe on the other hand is for the pick comps.
Lucian is still the most picked one though. He's just so safe.
killatopak
Gold Member
If she's dead then I don't know why pros still use her still. Sivir's ricochet can compensate for the tanks. I've seen her picked more when the mid has low waveclear.
KarneeKarnay
Member
I think a lot of the issues people have with tanks in the game right now can be traced to some, maybe not so well thought out, juggernaut reworks.
Back in the midway point of season 5, Tanks were at the highest win rates they'd ever been. Basically the changes to items and the jungle in that season made it really easy for tanks to play safe in the early game and become unstoppable in the mid game. It became a real problem, at the same time the complaints that certain champs like Darius (no longer useful due to all the extreme nerfs) and Garen who had become less useful due to the changes to the game and champs, Rito tries to kill two birds with one stone. Enter the Juggernauts.
They took four champs, either champs that hadn't really worked well since release or champs that the game had just left behind for the most part and reworked them to counter the current tanky meta. They only problem was they did that too well. Some of the changes were just plain awful, three hit mord who with a single item could do a 1000dmg to an enemy. Basically the Juggernauts were just too strong for this meta. They were winning every matchup and they didn't really have much in the way of counters. Rito realised this and nerfed the all loving crap out of them. The nerfs went a bit too far as most were concerned. Garen & Darius still see use in the top lane, but I haven't seen a scanrer or mord this entire season.
Rito had three choices to make.
1. Nerf the juggernauts.
2. Nerf the items that make them so strong.
3. A combination of both.
Shockingly Rito went with 1. You can argue this was becuase they didn't want to effect Worlds too much or that they were planning to introduce these item changes in season 6, regardless it ruined these champs for a while. Enter into season 6. Mastery changes. I'm not sure what Rito expected from the mastery changes. I thought they were cool, but super broken and it's only recently we've gotten to a sort of not-so-broken level. They finally introduced items that made the juggernauts stronger again, not so strong (Still no mord or scaner
), and started making ad champs a focus.
Here's the problem. The new mastery changes and items synergies super well with the assassin champs, like akali. Pretty much any champ that has a ton of burst, that in the past had to be super wary of how and when they attacked, now act more like ad bruisers, but way more dmging. They do this better than the ad bruisers like Riven. They can frontline, get in the backline and get out without dying whilst doing tons of dmg.
Aside from a few choice pics, there's not much reason to choose an ad bruiser anymore. You might as well chose an assassin with sustain and go tank, or poppy.
One thing I didn't mention earlier was the item nerfs to mages. I honestly think Rito didn't think it would cause them to be hit as hard as they were. Regardless they have suffered an awful lot compared to the other types of champs right now. All I can hope is that the mages rework offers some call changes for them, as a good mage from season 3 could probably deal with these tanky assassins.
Did I miss anything?
EDIT: Ahhhh. Didn't realise the wall of text. Sorry guys. .
Back in the midway point of season 5, Tanks were at the highest win rates they'd ever been. Basically the changes to items and the jungle in that season made it really easy for tanks to play safe in the early game and become unstoppable in the mid game. It became a real problem, at the same time the complaints that certain champs like Darius (no longer useful due to all the extreme nerfs) and Garen who had become less useful due to the changes to the game and champs, Rito tries to kill two birds with one stone. Enter the Juggernauts.
They took four champs, either champs that hadn't really worked well since release or champs that the game had just left behind for the most part and reworked them to counter the current tanky meta. They only problem was they did that too well. Some of the changes were just plain awful, three hit mord who with a single item could do a 1000dmg to an enemy. Basically the Juggernauts were just too strong for this meta. They were winning every matchup and they didn't really have much in the way of counters. Rito realised this and nerfed the all loving crap out of them. The nerfs went a bit too far as most were concerned. Garen & Darius still see use in the top lane, but I haven't seen a scanrer or mord this entire season.
Rito had three choices to make.
1. Nerf the juggernauts.
2. Nerf the items that make them so strong.
3. A combination of both.
Shockingly Rito went with 1. You can argue this was becuase they didn't want to effect Worlds too much or that they were planning to introduce these item changes in season 6, regardless it ruined these champs for a while. Enter into season 6. Mastery changes. I'm not sure what Rito expected from the mastery changes. I thought they were cool, but super broken and it's only recently we've gotten to a sort of not-so-broken level. They finally introduced items that made the juggernauts stronger again, not so strong (Still no mord or scaner
), and started making ad champs a focus. Here's the problem. The new mastery changes and items synergies super well with the assassin champs, like akali. Pretty much any champ that has a ton of burst, that in the past had to be super wary of how and when they attacked, now act more like ad bruisers, but way more dmging. They do this better than the ad bruisers like Riven. They can frontline, get in the backline and get out without dying whilst doing tons of dmg.
Aside from a few choice pics, there's not much reason to choose an ad bruiser anymore. You might as well chose an assassin with sustain and go tank, or poppy.
One thing I didn't mention earlier was the item nerfs to mages. I honestly think Rito didn't think it would cause them to be hit as hard as they were. Regardless they have suffered an awful lot compared to the other types of champs right now. All I can hope is that the mages rework offers some call changes for them, as a good mage from season 3 could probably deal with these tanky assassins.
Did I miss anything?
EDIT: Ahhhh. Didn't realise the wall of text. Sorry guys. .
Dreams-Visions
Member
Well stated, Karnee.
And yea, the rise of tank assassins like Akali and tank Ekko should have sent off some bigass warning flares at RITO headquarters that something isn't quite right.
And yea, the rise of tank assassins like Akali and tank Ekko should have sent off some bigass warning flares at RITO headquarters that something isn't quite right.
killatopak
Gold Member
Stone Ocean
Member
I think it's due to the identity crisis thing I was talking about. It's not as salt inducing when you know what to expect, take Panth for example, it's fucking Panth, he's an asshole and you know he hurts like shit so when he gets broken due to itemization he's just doing his job while overtuned, your experience hasn't really changed, his power is obvious and you know what you're signing up for. But when you see someone that is expected to build full damage - like Fiora - just blowing you up then it's a different story.
Tanks are facing that dilemma, when glass cannons can be soloed by people building full defenses then the game's itemization is fucked somewhere. We have a saying here in Brazil that translates into something along the lines of "hard rock, soft water, hit enough and it'll get pierced", but League is more like 'hard rock, soft water, water gets FUCKED because fuck your made up Jankenpon rules"
Stone missed his chance to get diamond after the Morde rework gg.
Seriously it's like no-one in this thread actually plays this game.
Stone Ocean
Member
It's a relic from late S4 / early S5 when ADCs were fucking broken so tanks and bruisers needed cheaper items to deal with mid game spikes from stuff like Lucian.
Then those were nerfed and Cinderhulk was introduced, now history basically repeats itself.
killatopak
Gold Member
I'm no adc main but I do watch the pro scene. I don't know if what I said is wrong in solo q but it's what's happening in lck at the very least.
My whole post stemmed from kenbo and neol's conversation about how jhin and lucian are the only used adcs at pro play.
This is the last patch you'll ever see Kalista being used in pro play.
can't watch this atm but will later. I've always wanted to try mapping league to a controller, also always thought they would port league to the ps4 and give it a controller mode where you could only play against other controller players but also have a mouse and keyboard mode and play normally. seems like a good idea to me
until she gets buffed again :^)
Ehh I can see Kalista being used just for securing objectives as well as throwing supports into the fray but yea she's a shadow of her former self.
The parrot is pretty cool but the rest of the skin is meh.
That being said I don't think any of Swain's skins look good. As much as I like him his base model is just bleh.
The parrot is pretty cool but the rest of the skin is meh.
That being said I don't think any of Swain's skins look good. As much as I like him his base model is just bleh.
Stone Ocean
Member
Pros basically take Kalista as a Kindred / Ali solution, once those get nerfed she'll won't really have a place in the competitive meta.
killatopak
Gold Member
I really want them to revert the oathsworn changes. That change meant that it's a requirement that your support is the oathsworn. Some crazy plays and strategies where you need to ult other people will no longer be brought to the table due to that.
Yes I know that it's not seen often if any at all but the possibilities are still rather amusing. I just wish they treat it like how they treat and said that specific roles are not locked because they don't want the meta to be permanent and such. Variety is what it's all about.
Purple Cheeto
Member
I feel like people have been saying this since roughly the point in time when Garen was introduced and people realized you could just go 5 sunfires on a bunch of characters and it wasn't an issue. Everything in League is cyclical I suppose. Right now its tanks/bruisers whatever, then it'll be assassins, then ad carries, rinse and repeat forever.
Dreams-Visions
Member
church.
that's because of the difficulty of balancing a roster of 100+ different characters. building primarily tanky makes sense as a game concept. Building tanky and being able to solo 5 and 6-slotted carries is a different matter. Here were remain in League. Building tanky should buy you and your team time to get off critical spells, reposition in team fights, tank for damage dealers. It should not allow you to bulldoze through teams with heavy dps because your tanks with 5 defensive items deal almost as much real damage (that is damage that can be used instead of having to kite) as the enemy adc and their 5 offensive items.
Stone Ocean
Member
What would your definition of a mid game tank be?
Azir is good. Velkoz shits on Azir. Other mages aren't meta and/or garbage. Not as item dependant while mage itemization is bad.
Orochinagis
Member
Aurelio is kinda fun, have to move a lot and dance with the stars, the enemy Jace didnt do nothing to stop me
They should be able to lock them down and do enough damage for your other carries to finish them off. Tanks on there own shouldn't be able to 1v1 since the whole point of them is peel and provide CC to make it easier for your teammates to kill.
Stone Ocean
Member
If he itemizes specifically for said carry then sure, why not, a lead's a lead. It should take a significant amount of time though, no burst coupled with lockdown.
So no killing at all? not even 10-20 seconds? That would put a tanks entire rotation of spells under 500 damage
I agree with stone, a lead is a lead. They shouldn't be able to kill you with one rotation bc that's assassination. If we're talking 6 items vs 6 items then things get a little hazy for me. On one end a carry should require peel in order to carry imo. They shouldn't be able to just wipe your team for free. On the other hand, they did invest 15k gold into damage they should probably be able to do it. Idk it's kind of a thing.