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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
He was at 48% win rate with a super unique playstyle before the buffs which is perfectly reasonable and now he's "viable" in that he's likely broken
PhillipCostigan
Member
yeah that is the major buff he got. That and Q cooldown which was likely unnecessary.
Health growth buff was really good for AP builds.
No, you said the only way he'd ever see play is he were overtuned. I said that he'll get overtuned, played, brought into line, and become a jungle mainstay because he has a really solid kit for jungling.
killatopak
Gold Member
Really?
I thought the new jungle would make him weak. Gonna bust him out along with shyv then
Edit: Woah wtf is that win rate?!
Edit2: Look at that support win rate tho... 30%...
Dobkeratops
OT Hard Carry
New client will black screen at the results every other game, effectively becoming useless unless i restart. Does anyone get that as well or is it because i'm playing on a shit ass laptop now?
I've gotten that like once since the update. That's out of 20+ games.
Stone Ocean
Member
God damn it Riot I need this already
I disagree.
The previous changes to Ivern were to correct inconsistencies in the overall kit. Ivern's base stats were comparable to Sona, Nami, and other ranged pure supports. Considering he doesn't get to hide in bot lane like those ranged supports, protected by wards and having a partner, and must face the Lee Sins, Elises, etc. of the game by himself, those base stat buffs were necessary.
His health and mana costs on his passive were absolutely bonkers. At level 11, a stage when other strong junglers are clearing camps quickly while barely even getting a scratch, Ivern was losing upwards of20% of his health per camp. During that stretch, items like Warmogs had a 70% win rate on Ivern when built, not because it's actaully a good item on Ivern, but because it let him cope.
The final buff was improvements to AI which again were absolutely necessary. Unless you played Ivern, you don't know how absolutely stupid Daisy was. Way beyond "LoL's pets are stupid". If Daisy lost track of a target in the brush, it would just stand there. It never attacked Ivern's target, never attacked whatever was hitting Ivern, would randomly switch targets. It was awful.
Those three changes were necessary to remove the clunkiness from his kit. Now, the job of actually balancing Ivern can begin.
The only genuine buffs he got was a CD reduction on his Q and Daisy's base hp. Not necessary in hindsight, but they aren't WTF overkill either.
The biggest buff to Ivern was actually the jungle changes. Every. Single. Thing helped Ivern (smite heals, plants, he doesn't have any trouble clearing Raptors or Krugs, longer spawn times). It's evident now that when originally tuning Ivern they tuned him for the new jungle.
(Also, consider first that na.op.gg is the only one of the sites reporting a 56% win rate. The others, kr.op.gg, euw.op.gg, lolalytics.com, and leagueofgraphs.com have him anywhere between 50-53 and puts him in low tier 1/high tier 2 range which seems more sensible from the high elo matches Iv'e spectated. Second, Ivern by the nature of his kit was bound to cope with the jungle changes more easily than any other jungler since his pathing hasn't changed what-so-ever. As players become more familiar with the new jungle paths, etc. other champions will catch up.)
It still has it's what the fuck moments for target selection. The most common problem is that when I tell Daisy to hit the tower and there's an enemy champion nearby, she'll keep switching her target to the champ even though I directly telling her to hit tower. It's not hard to adjust, basically just keep wailing on the R key and target the tower, but that is in the least bit manageable.
Every second time I play my ping goes to ~55 instead of the usual ~65. Not sure if there's an actual change on Riot's end though. I recently noticed that my router's port forwarding for LoL wasn't properly set.
Really?
I thought the new jungle would make him weak. Gonna bust him out along with shyv then
Edit: Woah wtf is that win rate?!
Edit2: Look at that support win rate tho... 30%...
You talking about Hecarim or Ivern here? I assume Hecarim (because you mention Shyv) but he loves new jungle. Hecarim players "in the know" didn't start at Gromp or Krugs but rather started blue. Now that a buff start is the default starting location the those all Hecarim players have taken that good habit. Combine with him benefiting from the heal on every smite and his relative ease clearing Raptors, and the fact he was strong beforehand, and you have one OP horsey.
I really can't stress how significant the Raptor camp is to a jungler's win rate right now. Can the jungler clear Raptor in a sensible amount of time while not taking too much damage early? If yes, the jungler saw a win rate increase. If no, the jungler saw a win rate decrease. The correlation is exceptionally strong. I cleared the jungle in customs with roughly 30 champions and then I went to lolalytics.com. I guessed whether a champion's win rate went up or down before opening the page and I was right about 80% of the time. When I was wrong it was always the same story. I guessed the jungler's win rate would go down or up when in reality it stayed roughly the same.
It'll be interesting to see if the correlation holds throughout the season (assuming the camp isn't changed, of course) or if players adjust their early pathing and counter-jungling to compensate and even the win rate variances between champions.
SenorArdilla
Member
Isn't it just because of the new jungle?
Let me put it this way:
If Ivern had all those buffs but the S7 jungle was identical, his 6.22 win rate likely goes from ~47% to ~48.5%. He's currently around ~52%, on aggregate from various champion analytic websites. That difference is from the new jungle, so yes, very significant.
If Ivern had all those buffs but the S7 jungle was identical, his 6.22 win rate likely goes from ~47% to ~48.5%. He's currently around ~52%, on aggregate from various champion analytic websites. That difference is from the new jungle, so yes, very significant.
i wish the new client felt a lot more responsive
there's a bit of a delay on every click, it's really annoying
also you're looking at numbers without thinking, her passive deals more dmg than pretty much every spell in the game, that's why the numbers on her regular spells are low
you may get one good use out of it in the entire game but i'd rather have a smoother ult and not have that
i played ryze vs kat and she seemed kind of bad but it wasn't a really good player. ryze is super good against her tho cos u can just mash w on the dagger and she won't be able to shunpo back out
i played cassi vs talon and talon felt broken in lane, although later on he was really manageable in teamfights. his damage is just insane, i know that cassi rushes tear so someone like zed can really abuse that but he felt stupid, pre-6 he was taking like half my dmg with a single qe auto.
you used to be able to like jump at people and like try and stay as much time as possible close to them autoing and trying to connect the chain and going back only when u could dodge a skillshot with it. it felt like u were on the edge of the knife, fairly big risk and really big reward. it wasn't even but it felt GREAT
now you like have to use w to like reposition and just let e deal all the dmg i guess, ehhh i hate it
there's a bit of a delay on every click, it's really annoying
this is uncalled for, ppl at riot are human beings, they make mistakes, have feelings and care just like you, so don't be an asshole
also you're looking at numbers without thinking, her passive deals more dmg than pretty much every spell in the game, that's why the numbers on her regular spells are low
i think the clone is fun but it's mostly useless
you may get one good use out of it in the entire game but i'd rather have a smoother ult and not have that
yeah i think they totally nailed the animations in talon and kat, those things look awesome
i played ryze vs kat and she seemed kind of bad but it wasn't a really good player. ryze is super good against her tho cos u can just mash w on the dagger and she won't be able to shunpo back out
i played cassi vs talon and talon felt broken in lane, although later on he was really manageable in teamfights. his damage is just insane, i know that cassi rushes tear so someone like zed can really abuse that but he felt stupid, pre-6 he was taking like half my dmg with a single qe auto.
the thing is, that's fun with ryze cos ryze is machinegun spells, but on lb it just feels clunky and slow as hell and she was much cooler before
you used to be able to like jump at people and like try and stay as much time as possible close to them autoing and trying to connect the chain and going back only when u could dodge a skillshot with it. it felt like u were on the edge of the knife, fairly big risk and really big reward. it wasn't even but it felt GREAT
now you like have to use w to like reposition and just let e deal all the dmg i guess, ehhh i hate it
sadly it just scales the client instead of like fitting more stuff in it :I
It's probably just you
Yeah I'm saying Daisy AI was enough of a detriment that it was significantly affecting his win rate. I thought he felt really good outside of the random delay between dashing to someone and actually being able to auto them and daisy just straight derping about half of the time. I just think that Ivern is kinda like bard but to more of an extreme in that he's likely gonna have a slightly lower win rate than his actual power level because he plays so much different than every other jungler. I really don't feel like he needed as much love as they gave him for sure.
On LB, does E not proc thunderlords by itself anymore? I thought i saw someone full E someone to get the passive and both ends of the chain damage but the thunderlords didn't pop until he autod afterwards. It may have been a cd thing but I know it procd thunderlords that way on PBE
Stone Ocean
Member
But you can still do that? All Riot removed was instant W > return
Also I think are sleeping on her clone. Randomly making a gank show up somewhere in the map is gimmicky, but using it while you're flanking someone can force them right torwards you.
Fair enough. I think the other thing that was holding back his win rates was Riot's absolutely god awful item suggestions. As the days go by his core items are starting to solidify and it's surprising that his core first buy is...Athene's. I figured it be a very good on him, but as a first item? Damn man, damn. That said, it totally makes sense.
Three days of getting info and I'm pleasantly surprised that Quinn's win rate in the jungle is stable. After messing around with her on PBE I expected item changes and a less forgiving jungle to ADCs to do her in, but it seems like the core elements of her kit (dueling, utility and mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that delicious ultimate) keep her relevant.
I'm falling back into my own trap where I want to play too many junglers...I'm definitely keeping Ivern, Skarner, and Tahm Kench in my pool and I'm going to try out Gragas, Rek'Sai, Poppy, and Quinn. And Nautilus I suppose, but I'm so used to playing him when I pick him it's like riding a bike.
cd
it's 1 hit on chain connect, 2 hit on chain pop and 3 hit on passive
you can but it's a lot harder and you eat a ton of dmg since you're spending a lot more time that you would like in their face
it takes a lot of control from you which is the point but you trade that for nothing at all
also i've used the clone like that but it's like whatever, i like it but i liked old leblanc better
everything about old leblanc felt smoother and more fun to use
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Old leblanc was more unfun than Rengar
Wolf Akela
Member
So according to Monte, Blizzard paid him more in 2 weeks compared 5 weeks from Riot. Wtf Riot don't lose Monte.
https://youtu.be/Ke5G7W4XTAI
https://youtu.be/Ke5G7W4XTAI
Stone Ocean
Member
Monte is already gone
Wolf Akela
Member
Well that sucks. Who's casting LCK now?
Stone Ocean
Member
He's still casting LCK for now. But if competitive Overwatch ever gets popular he's probably gobe.
u wot. He was easily one of the best caster/analysts for league content. Although that isn't really hard when you have people like Phreak and co.
at this point who cares
it's not a good look for himself to be constantly complaining and whining, he's got a right to ask for more money but we don't have to be part of this conversation, he's not showing how the sausage gets made, he just wants more money
Monte is great at his job. Not only is his personality quite different from everyone else in the scene but he will actually take the opportunity to bring up opposite perspectives just to make the conversations interesting, as Dash pointed out a while back. That being said, I don't think Monte will leave League unless Overwatch takes a significant amount of time. He wants to build his skillsets so he ends up being a very highly desired personality in the e-sports scene. That being said, it is extremely disappointing and sad that we won't see Monte probably in a Riot hosted event ever. Riot sort of dropped the ball. At least we have Jatt tho.
Terbinator
Member
As long as we don't get stuck with that English gimp (Pulse?) we're good.
i feel both were pretty dumb about this
i find it very hard to side with riot for anything money related since they're so stupidly rich, but monte is kind of an egomaniac or something so i can see working with him being an absolute nightmare unless you're equally obnoxious like thorin or you're awesome like doa
both riot and monte are to blame here for not working things out like adults i guess
i mean the end result is what matters and we didn't have like the best color caster at worlds and that's sucky, whoever's fault it is
PhillipCostigan
Member
thankfully you're not the only person in the entire world
Stone Ocean
Member
I like the Lux skin but the minigame is a dealbreaker. I'm not going to buy a skin I need to hit skillshots consistently for like 20 minutes straight to fully use
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Elementalist Lux seems to be 10 average skins put into one because none of the skins stood out on their own. The idea is neat but as far as the skins go, it falls behind Sona and Udyr because their skins are a concise idea and they nail that aspect, because its appropriate to their character.
For example, Sona and Udyr are "Stance" champions where it makes sense that they change form, whether through music or physical form.
It seems they tried to bring this idea to Lux, bur she isnt a stance champion. So her transformation aspect becomes a gimmick, and the reason she has 10 is probably because rito forgot that quantity doesnt necessarily mean quality.
So you end up getting a skin compromised of 10 slightly different dresses with different color palettes that dont really stand out on their own.
For example, Sona and Udyr are "Stance" champions where it makes sense that they change form, whether through music or physical form.
It seems they tried to bring this idea to Lux, bur she isnt a stance champion. So her transformation aspect becomes a gimmick, and the reason she has 10 is probably because rito forgot that quantity doesnt necessarily mean quality.
So you end up getting a skin compromised of 10 slightly different dresses with different color palettes that dont really stand out on their own.
I like the thematic behind giving Lux a variety to pick from, sort of this "many beams of light from a prism" sort of thing. I kind of think they have too many colors, or could have combined differently (7 base colors of the rainbow, combine those to get the last 3) but that's another thing entirely.
I imagine the biggest divide is here though. I like the way using the skin is setup where you gradually unlock a new form. I think they wimped out a little and could have let it go through more stages or let you freely move through the options after a point but I think that's more a testament to how much I'd like to use all of them rather than some.
I can agree that at an individual level, each shard or element or whatever of Lux isn't an Ultimate skin. But you don't get just the one? The way I see it is the whole package fits her thematic as various refractions of light. They maybe could have embraced that idea a bit more / lampshaded it better maybe but I'd say it's a very fitting choice of champion to give this many shades to.
If I had to leverage any real "Seriously Riot, why?" is pretty much that it wasn't Prismatic Lux instead of Elementalist. I think you can still tie the Elementals to the colors but I think the options thematically fit best if it stuck to Light-related imagery to the naming and visuals to it.
I imagine the biggest divide is here though. I like the way using the skin is setup where you gradually unlock a new form. I think they wimped out a little and could have let it go through more stages or let you freely move through the options after a point but I think that's more a testament to how much I'd like to use all of them rather than some.
I can agree that at an individual level, each shard or element or whatever of Lux isn't an Ultimate skin. But you don't get just the one? The way I see it is the whole package fits her thematic as various refractions of light. They maybe could have embraced that idea a bit more / lampshaded it better maybe but I'd say it's a very fitting choice of champion to give this many shades to.
If I had to leverage any real "Seriously Riot, why?" is pretty much that it wasn't Prismatic Lux instead of Elementalist. I think you can still tie the Elementals to the colors but I think the options thematically fit best if it stuck to Light-related imagery to the naming and visuals to it.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Right. If they made her 'Prismatic Lux' it would make sense. 7 colors, each form utilizes a different color.
But it's Elementalist. And the fire form isn't quite fire. Or the dark form is...dark isn't an element. It's just all over the place.
Atleast Sona stays a musician. Atleast Udyr stays an animal transformer. And nobody cares about Ezreal.
The more I see of the Lux skin the more I like it. Definitely ranks on the upper end of spell effects and there is a lot of diversity there too. Really good animation work too. Even individually I think the elemental appearances are strong, and overall the value of the skin feels high. At the same time though the combination concept just does not seem all the way there.
It does not really help that half of the variants seem way more appealing than the others. Light, Magma, Dark, Ice, and Mystic just have designs I like more. Inherently the core elements just feel like stepping stones to the evolved forms, and when they build off each other heavily it's hard to see people favoring fire to magma. Nobody really wants to be Charmeleon when they can be Charizard. On the other end Mystic is probably my favorite, but it does not really feel like it relates to the elemental types or come across as an amped up version of one of its base forms. Still, if someone likes playing Lux I don't see how you avoid picking this up.
It does not really help that half of the variants seem way more appealing than the others. Light, Magma, Dark, Ice, and Mystic just have designs I like more. Inherently the core elements just feel like stepping stones to the evolved forms, and when they build off each other heavily it's hard to see people favoring fire to magma. Nobody really wants to be Charmeleon when they can be Charizard. On the other end Mystic is probably my favorite, but it does not really feel like it relates to the elemental types or come across as an amped up version of one of its base forms. Still, if someone likes playing Lux I don't see how you avoid picking this up.
I think "Magma" as an option kind of ate into the visual budget for fire options. Legitimately surprised they didn't just give her a Pulsefire as a combination, but maybe that's a bit much here. It at least would have stood out compared to Magma I imagine.
That said, I mean ... RPGs tend to classify Light/Dark as elements. I kind of figured that was the springboard for their entire take, really? Go from "Light" and colors that make it up to "Light" as an element and the components of it. I think a big part of the skin is the using multiple versions of the skin per game so I'm more on the side I wish you did end up playing through more instead of just "how do I get to
This is where I think they really could have just embraced the whole idea of all the skins and how you traverse through them all. I think they may have put too much stock in people willingly going through every form on a whim perhaps? I'm not sure. I think making that flow of form-to-form-to-form from game-to-game as fun and interesting as they could is where they really needed to have put all their focus onto.
PhillipCostigan
Member
switching between forms on a whim would be terrible from a gameplay perspective. You'd have to differentiate between 10 different coloured particles for the entire game. At least now you only need to know 3, but it's still tough and they're at least around for a specific amount of time.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
all the particles are similar enough that them changing isn't that big of a deal