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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Makes me think that Infernal Nasus needs more fire effects. That way fools will be cleansed in flames.
Well, they're not meant to tell you conclusions. You use them to draw conclusions. They're a pretty small part of the whole thing. I guess it's part of my confusion with the Lucian example since, to me, it's a pretty good spread? Low experience isn't far from the average, experience shows room for growth (arguably not enough but the 125+ category is weird here). The most important part to me is the volume of players hitting above average which shows a decent enough situation to start asking questions with.
I think you're steering it back towards something it's not? It's not at all about difficulty in playing, it's about how much experience changes their win rate. You can have easy to play champions that are hard to win with just as much as you can have hard to play champions with a high win rate. One does not lead to the other.
Really, I think the big takeaway from that list is that experienced players have better win rates with melee champions that are easy to kite, other "different" roaming-based champs, and champions with at-loss mechanics (e.g., Rumble's self-silence, Vlad's self-damage, Kalista existing). Put another way, Udyr and Singed in that list represent how experience helps overcome their shortcomings towards performing well; it has nothing to do with playing them is hard or executing what they're trying to do is hard?
Edit: I went to go dig this up:
I don't really have a problem with this list but this and your other posts I think shows you're treating it as a "how hard to play this champion when winning." So I'm curious how this question goes:
"What are the hardest champions to win a game with in the current meta?" Not hardest to not feed with, hardest to carry with, or anything like that. Just which champions are at odds with the state of the game for doing what their kit wants them to do.
I thought we were talking about difficulty though, not just like general winrate. Someone like Vlad has easy mechanics, but his winrate isn't great because he has to play in a unique way.
Someone like Udyr may have a lower winrate because he too has easy mechanics, but he's just not that strong of a champion. Udyr and Singed have unique playstyles, but once you play a couple of games on the champs, they're just like any other champ kinda.
I think a distinction has to be set there.
What I'm trying to say here I guess, is that even if you know how to play Vlad properly he's still kinda hard to pull off, but once you know Udyr, he's very simple.
Someone like Udyr may have a lower winrate because he too has easy mechanics, but he's just not that strong of a champion. Udyr and Singed have unique playstyles, but once you play a couple of games on the champs, they're just like any other champ kinda.
I think a distinction has to be set there.
What I'm trying to say here I guess, is that even if you know how to play Vlad properly he's still kinda hard to pull off, but once you know Udyr, he's very simple.
I think this is a very important distinction. It's why I consider someone like Ashe to be easy to play even when she's weak, and Draven is difficult unless he's way too strong at the moment. His skill cap is still the same, but if he's just too strong it doesn't matter. He would still be difficult to master though.
If a champ is blatantly overpowered enough you won't need to be good at the unique mechanics or anything to win a lot, after all.
Orochinagis
Member
Ewwww
Nah, the original quote at the very start is about a list of champions with the sharpest change in win rate as you go up in player experience. Then you can start answering the why (and, in some cases, it may just be "Because you only play it if you want to OTP it" and not "Because it's hard!").
Ignore the actual win rate and think more on how much it increases with experience.
Yeah, I think that's where the problem came in? I was late to edit it in there but I think part of the problem is most of the list fits the category of winning with X champ is hard because executing that is hard which fits entirely what your personal list was like. Udyr, Singed, and other "simple" champions on the list are more there because how hard it is to be allowed to execute their simple plan that somehow people figure out and not because what they're doing is hard.
Basically, it's a list of champs that are hard to win games due to the potential to fail and then you have things that are just hard to win with because seriously how are you going to win with that. But they are all champions that those with experience win a lot more with than those without experience for some reason or another.
Edit: I will say that of the two camps in that list, the "how hard to pull off" side tend to be the more interesting to talk about for most people? Like, these are the champions you see people main or do well with and go "Oh, wow, that was impressive." Where an Udyr or Singed that carries the same way you'd go "How / Why were they able to do that?"
Sr Kitsune
Member
Ayyyy, lmao
Stone Ocean
Member
I'm an ADC, we can't be true neutral
Thanks for this will check it out
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Im separated far enough from league to be neutral towards it
Sr Kitsune
Member
I love how fitting are the facial expression on their avatars. lol.
Hydrophobic
Member
You're chaotic neutral because you stir shit up with balance suggestions straight stolen from other games like half the time you're posting in here.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
SenorArdilla
Member
What if Teemo's R became a toggle that changed his Q, W, and E into different types of mushroom traps?
Hydrophobic
Member
What if Teemo's Q, W, and E were different mushrooms that, when combined in different combos of 3 and pressing R to 'Mushroomvoke' caused a new spell to be created.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
what if teemo was a mushroom
and Q, W, E, R would spit out teemos that said and repeated different things
and Q, W, E, R would spit out teemos that said and repeated different things
new login screen is great
haha that's pretty good
jessica nigiri is cool
i find her cosplaying too boobilicious and remarkably unasian but she works with what she has
she's also really likeable, i enjoy super excited people like her
haha that's pretty good
yea take a new picture and make sure light hits your face you dumbo
whaaa
jessica nigiri is cool
i find her cosplaying too boobilicious and remarkably unasian but she works with what she has
she's also really likeable, i enjoy super excited people like her
Does Riot games just do Rule of cool over Balance? Cause that's how my first match against 'Camille' (Really dumb design by the way) went. It seems like they got so caught up in their design they forgot to take a step back and think: "Wait does this actually work in a balanced environment", although they probably did and then said: "Fuck it, it's a cool character. We can maybe balance them later."
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I told you guys about Camille
Funnily enough I thought she was a neat design. She just doesn't fit in League, because the majority of champions have an older design philosophy to them(And thus you have the huge swathes of 'remakes' per role, IE mage rework, Assassin rework..but that only covers small fragments of the whole roster) so she outclasses them by a fair margin. She could do with less things on her skils(IE remove the damage on her slow, not needed)
She is a bit ridiculous. "But she can jump 1v5, but what about the enemy team, etc." were silly defenses because let's pretend nobody ever gets caught out ever.
Funnily enough I thought she was a neat design. She just doesn't fit in League, because the majority of champions have an older design philosophy to them(And thus you have the huge swathes of 'remakes' per role, IE mage rework, Assassin rework..but that only covers small fragments of the whole roster) so she outclasses them by a fair margin. She could do with less things on her skils(IE remove the damage on her slow, not needed)
She is a bit ridiculous. "But she can jump 1v5, but what about the enemy team, etc." were silly defenses because let's pretend nobody ever gets caught out ever.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
She'll be balanced out as they keep 'reworking' older characters to more modern standards. Like, she's a fine character. Not egregious in a vacuum. But in the context of League and all the characters still 'left in the dust', she's disgusting. There are some things of her that are completely unfun(Her ult for example) in the context of League again, but...eh. It really is a wait and see for how they work on older things, bring them up to code.
Peanut Butter
Member
I'm still waiting for an Annie visual update where she ages 6 or 7 years with the help of Zilean.
No, I don't have an Annie fantasy.
No, I don't have an Annie fantasy.
In what way? Her skills all have their fairly large telegraphs associated with them. On the playing as side, her W feels like it doesn't have enough impact when it hits but I haven't noticed anything glaringly masked but maybe I'm overlooking something.
Hydrophobic
Member
Riot is not the only company to release OP characters on launch. I've been having a lot of fun playing against Monkey King in dota and I'm sick and tired of seeing Varian in every fucking game in HotS. I think it's hard to release a truly balanced champ on release because the group of play testers is usually so small. Nothing can match the data and feedback of the entire playerbase.
Hm. Her legs glow (+ audio!) during the Q2 charging time, with a really major glow on the center of her model when the empowered one is ready. I was thinking her Q2 had probably the most tells associated to it lol.
Over / undertune on release is basically par for the course honestly. A lot of tuning passes go through while knowing about the counter play options available so you kind of get left with being balanced around some level of outplay potential.
i feel like the best thing about chroma lux is how much fanart it's created
also i think her ult is the only fun part of her kit (i mean, for the opposing player). that's understandable cos nothing is ever fun to play against (although skillshots > not skillshots), but yeah the ult is the thing you can like dodge around and outplay her at
the rest of her kit i feel it's kind of impossible to outplay? if she catches you on your own she just does her thing and you either outstat her or are pretty much dead
i'm probably exaggerating since she's been out for a week but that's my first impressions at least
reminds me of the project skins
i mean, designing new champions around old ones like warwick or something would be foolish. i get that you compare her to something like tryndamere and she's "disgusting" as u put it but tryndamere is also disgusting in his own right haha
also i think her ult is the only fun part of her kit (i mean, for the opposing player). that's understandable cos nothing is ever fun to play against (although skillshots > not skillshots), but yeah the ult is the thing you can like dodge around and outplay her at
the rest of her kit i feel it's kind of impossible to outplay? if she catches you on your own she just does her thing and you either outstat her or are pretty much dead
i'm probably exaggerating since she's been out for a week but that's my first impressions at least
she has so many vfx that it's really hard to tell what's going on
reminds me of the project skins
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I mean in the sense of how overloaded her kit is.
Like...compared to Tryndamere, he has a simple kit that can be countered in various ways. None of his skills are overloaded.
Yeah, creating champions whilst basing their kit around existing kits is bad and it's not what I'm talking about, it's the fact that someone like Camille has a kit that is egregiously overloade compared to say someone like WW or Tryndamere, and that her kit has a bunch of utility as well as damage/CC/movement. Older kits like Tryndamere/WW/Amumu/Blitzcrank can't compare nor realistically compete to kits with alot of utility/aspects like Camille/Rek'sai/Ivern/Thresh.
LIke I mentioned, I like Camilles kit. I just don't think it's a healthy one considering the majority of the roster was created with a different philosophy in mind.
(I underestimated Ivern, I thought he would become a niche pick like Aurelion Sol, but due to the simplicity and effectiveness of his kit, he's actually one of the best junglers atm)
From a laning perspective, I'd have to disagree? She has huge windows in her gameplay for when you know what she's about to do. The bulk of her Q damage is on the empowered Q2 so you know there's a 2s period to work around; her W's entire hitbox is on display during the cast; her E2 projectile speed isn't that fast and her steroid is gated by landing it. I'd imagine some trimming of values, and increasing her ult recast early on, will be the first ways to cut at her holding leads in lane.
Assuming she catches you out though, I'll have to agree with that. Once on you it's basically a done deal barring an actual escape outplay. And even then she's great at pursuing. The saving grace for outplaying her is that she's pretty squishy and all-in. She can do some degenerate things but I think she's better than a bundle of stats when it comes to what she's trying to accomplish compared to, say, Tryndamere's case. So I think she has more room for things to adjust than Tryndamere's case who literally cannot be allowed to accomplish what he tries for.
Coming back at the end of s6 meant catching up on so many extra glowing procs and stacks to keep up with that, to me, it's refreshing that Camille basically tells me everything lol. Getting used to Grasp took so long since suddenly champs glow now that didn't glow before, factoring TLD added burst / availability, etc.
Orochinagis
Member
Bought Camille finally, she is a instant ban on ranked =(.
Welp, Nigri is all about boobs which is boring cuz thats the only thing her cosplays have to offer
Welp, Nigri is all about boobs which is boring cuz thats the only thing her cosplays have to offer
i thought this was so damn cool
this is not really true tho
few champions are as bad as warwick or tryndamere anymore
and it makes no sense to say camille is bad because tryndamere exists. tryndamere is bad, you shouldn't drag camille down to his level
that being said i do think she's overloaded up the wazoo but unsure if that's too bad atm
i was lux v camille and experience was, you can't dodge or outrun her e, and then she has stun+massive slow+speed burst+shield and that's just super oppressive, even if it happens like every 20s or something. my q is on a 15s cd anyway, so it's not like i have a MASSIVE window of weakness i can abuse
most of all i felt like i wish her second dash could be interrupted by snares and up. it just felt super bullshitty that i predicted her dash and she still got the stun off
i just find those vfx are hard to read, they're very flashy and her animations are really, like, wide or whatever, it just makes difficult to tell
i disagree, boobs is definitely like half her thing but she has a great and fun personality and her costumes and pictures are pretty good
i don't think "slutty teemo" is good, but she has done good cosplay before
i just like her, she's fun
BreezyLimbo
Banned
wat
I didn't say camille is bad
nor am I dragging camille down to tryns level
I'm not saying any of that at all. Like I've said, Camilles design is fine in a vacuum. Outside of it though you have to contend with the fact that much of leagues roster doesn't have the same level of minutia that her kit has.
It's the same issue ekko and Azir had at their release, they just did so much and at such an effective way that they pushed themselves to be top picks just because of that fact.
i think there's problems with her being overloaded because they basically made another irelia but i'd say 2/3rds of the roster are fairly ok
tryndamere is by far the exception
BreezyLimbo
Banned
tryndamere is just an example of comparing the old philosophy of a champion versus the new philosophy
that is, overloading champions' kits. Camille will push out other melee assassins if only because her kit has alot of utility, mobility, and function.
Black-Wind
Member
looking at op.gg and ... have I been outta this game too long?
Cause apparently Kat top is a thing?
Cause apparently Kat top is a thing?
only if you rush triforce on her
Orochinagis
Member
Kog is so slow now, had to build 4 items to ever see him kill something
You've probably read it already but just in case, some evolution of top lane design. Ultimately, the tl;dr is more moving parts in the kit in order to compete but less binary singular-focused design (e.g., the Tryndamere case that keeps cropping up).
To be fair, I'm biased with normally doing it from a Riven or Renekton perspective who also can do some degenerate things. So my perspective of Camille is she's more frail and telegraphed than, say, the one who randomly shows up in your lane and feasts on you.
Huh, go figure then. I really like the audio part of the Q2 charge since it's rather distinct and jarring to listen to.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Come on man. You know by now that you aren't getting an S with CS that low unless you have like 18 kills.
You needed like +60cs.
QuantumSquid
Member
Haaaaaaave you met Karthus?