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[Leezard]

I'm thrilled that a non-jungler accepts that the the viable pool of junglers is shrinking. I'm not trying to sound combative, but I think that if Riot chose going forward that tank supports were the only thing they wanted in the support slot from here on out and ranged supports like Nami were left to rot you wouldn't say "well, that's just support as a role".

(Riot could do tons to improve clear speed of lots of junglers. They have chosen not to. Riot has a handful of approved junglers and anything else can fuck off. It's not hard, there's simply no will, which is a real shame because Riot in the very least tried to broaden the jungle in seasons 2-5.)

I mean, I think that has been the case with junglers since a long time. There has always been a couple of 3-4 picks that overshadow everything else. It might be true that the tier 2 junglers are a bit worse relative to the tier 1 junglers right now than before, but it's hard to claim that without using proper stats.

Jungling as a role really needs a lot of work.

 

[Sr Kitsune]

At any rate, I'd be an awful waste for my RP to just sit in my account doing nothing, so I'll be having a little contest. I randomly picked a champion using a number generator. I have enough RP for three mystery champion/skin gifts. So, for anyone who wants a shot at a champ/skin gift, you just have to guess that champion's name. The three guesses closest alphabetically to my random champion get the gifts. I'll give anyone interested until Thursday to guess. Also, please have at least this bolded text quoted in your posts to save me some trouble finding the guesses.

Ahri

 

[Calvero]

Man I love qtpie's stream and how every title always just cuts o

 

[drawkcaB]

I mean, I think that has been the case with junglers since a long time. There has always been a couple of 3-4 picks that overshadow everything else. It might be true that the tier 2 junglers are a bit worse relative to the tier 1 junglers right now than before, but it's hard to claim that without using proper stats.

Jungling as a role really needs a lot of work.

In competitive and high elo, absolutely the case. In lower elo solo queue? Nah, the breadth of champions that could competently jungle was much wider. You can actually see that in win rates right now.

 

[Envelope]

i may be 1-2 in my series for silver, but at least i finally got my 3rd mastery 7 token for lee
woooooo

 

[Fallen_Hero]

i may be 1-2 in my series for silver, but at least i finally got my 3rd mastery 7 token for lee
woooooo

I like to keep my Champion Masteries at 5. Makes the BM more BM, imo.

 

[jerd]

In competitive and high elo, absolutely the case. In lower elo solo queue? Nah, the breadth of champions that could competently jungle was much wider. You can actually see that in win rates right now.

It's just so insanely easy to punish the opposing jungler right now you can't afford to put yourself at a disadvantage. I don't really think it's that bad though. It definitely made it hard to play fun stuff like galio or Yorick jungle but that's kinda like playing teemo adc anyway. Unless you're very high elo if your champ has a decent jungle kit you should be fine. Even champs like wukong are fine in the new jungle and he definitely has a weak jungle kit

I like to keep my Champion Masteries at 5. Makes the BM more BM, imo.

Yeah Level 4 is my favorite if I could hold level 4 on every champ I would

 

[Ghost is Bad]

 

[Newt]

I never use mastery emote. /all ? is the way to go

 

[jerd]

Yeah i just don't like to use any bm that can be used against me later in the game when I inevitably fuck up

 

[matt05891]

I never use mastery emote. /all ? is the way to go

Best way to BM both friend and foe.

 

[Quonny]

I prefer pinging back repeatedly on someone as they're dying.

 

[zkylon]

why is ghost posting that picture again

TL;DR

Communication needs to be better, failed with plants which made people worry, maybe more info upfront or getting things on the PBE closer to when they announce it.
Class updates taught them about keeping stuff that made champions cool more often as opposed to giving them random-ass stuff just for the sake of being unique - Skarner spires being an example. Also that they need to do skillfloors and skillcaps better, Kat rework is good Vlad rework is bad, more visible power stuff.
They like support items with more visible power instead of raw stats and items that are tailored torwards some champions
Trying to change items and masteries before touching champions as far as balance is concerned.
Playtesting with people outside of Riot like Scarra is important, doing that more often.

Nothing about junglers being stupid which makes me sad.

finally watched it, i really like that they followed that candid style from overwatch, i enjoy that style a lot (also meddler is a pretty handsome man lol)

i think they're on point with most of what they're saying, i've read rioters say that junglers are too strong atm already so it's probably a matter of not having enough time to address everything

i specially like the part about looking at systems before looking at champions, i think that's really healthy and is something that riot's messed up a lot in the past, so good that they're taking steps to correct that in the future

this is cool, i liked it

I never use mastery emote. /all ? is the way to go

haha i should use ? more often

i do a lot of mastery emote and laugh spam but that's mostly cos i play a lot of lux and lulu (rip)

In competitive and high elo, absolutely the case. In lower elo solo queue? Nah, the breadth of champions that could competently jungle was much wider. You can actually see that in win rates right now.

give it a bit more time

remember it's still early in s7, the year is winding down and rioters are people too

have some (more) patience!

 

[BreezyLimbo]

finally watched it, i really like that they followed that candid style from overwatch, i enjoy that style a lot (also meddler is a pretty handsome man lol)

thats my favorite part

Like, it's fine for riot to take cues from other games whether it's in how they do communication or how they do balance. They shouldn't be afraid of 'cribbing' the style(even tho league was basically....taking from dota.)

 

[zkylon]

this is cool

thats my favorite part

Like, it's fine for riot to take cues from other games whether it's in how they do communication or how they do balance. They shouldn't be afraid of 'cribbing' the style(even tho league was basically....taking from dota.)

i mean, overwatch most definitely didn't invent "man talking to audience" style of communicating but it's nice to see the people making the games, it creates a link to someone that's not called ghostcrawler or scarizard

it shouldn't be the only method of communication but i like it

 

[Sr Kitsune]

I dig what they did with her tails.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

i mean, overwatch most definitely didn't invent "man talking to audience" style of communicating but it's nice to see the people making the games, it creates a link to someone that's not called ghostcrawler or scarizard

it shouldn't be the only method of communication but i like it

Right. It's been done in other forms of media, companies have done that style to talk to employees previously, but it's really effective to the main public to hear it like that. It's not patronizing, it's not a 'we know best' speech, it's really...thoughtful? It doesn't sound rehearsed and it doesn't sound like he's reading it off a cue card.

It's really nice. I look forward to seeing more videos from rito like this in the future.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

no for that i want higher resolution 3d models so they can do all that fancy overwatch stuff

but riot never thinks ahead

they don't think of the art that could be done

anywho this is cool

I support a Food Service Worker line of skins.

 

[Sr Kitsune]

Also, I haven't forgotten about the Piltover event (It's not done yet, going by the locked tiers)

Soon®, January I guess.

 

[zkylon]

I dig what they did with her tails.

yea

Right. It's been done in other forms of media, companies have done that style to talk to employees previously, but it's really effective to the main public to hear it like that. It's not patronizing, it's not a 'we know best' speech, it's really...thoughtful? It doesn't sound rehearsed and it doesn't sound like he's reading it off a cue card.

It's really nice. I look forward to seeing more videos from rito like this in the future.

i think they had done one with ghostcrawler before, can't remember

i mostly appreciate that they seem to have gotten all the right feedback from preseason. a lot of issues like redemption being busted is mostly balance so it doesn't really need screen time acknowledging, but things like how poorly they did the plants reveal is good

Also, I haven't forgotten about the Piltover event (It's not done yet, going by the locked tiers)

Soon®, January I guess.

it's mostly been a lore dump so i'm not a big fan of it so far, but there's so many locked tiers to go that they might turn it around

the ori story was really good, some of the camille stories not so much, haven't had the time to read the rest

 

[SenorArdilla]

Is it Camille -> New champ -> Warwick Rework?

 

[JulianImp]

Playing some more, it's kind of weird that I'm finally doing somewhat okay-ish (read: not feeding like mad) when playing jungle and sometimes mid. Playing blind pick with the beta client often gives me a couple seconds of lag after joining a game, so I sometimes get support taken away from me and have to pick top/mid/jg.

I can see how my execution and spacing has improved, but I still lack lots of champion knowledge that is required to make correct calls on when to engage, poke, kite, go all-in, etcetera. Bot is often my safest bet since I play there often, so I know how most common botlane champions play, but on the other hand, I realize that weird comps such as Vel support often gets me because I rarely play against Vel at all, and that leads to misjudging its range and burst potential (ie: I might go in without realizing that his damage plus the ADC's is more dangerous than, say, Janna's).

It all goes back to the pretty heavy burden of knowledge that is having at least some experience playing against all champions and roles, but I think I'm finally stabilizing my win-lose ratio and getting rewarded with a less sucky MMR, which in turn also means that my teammates are decent players way more often than before, leading to better and more fun games as well.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

why is ghost posting that picture again

 

[Orochinagis]

I dig what they did with her tails.

Like a ballon pulling her up

 

[zkylon]

i still don't get ghost's thing

 

[Sr Kitsune]

Those eyes

10/10

 

[Orochinagis]

Got paired with support morgana, didnt said anything , just build his/her full ap, everytime I got near to her , morgana just simply followed me along if I died she just stayed there hitting minion, if I recall she did the same. Never do her R or any active item or place a ward or something, we lose anyway.

Bronze is really weird sometimes

 

[Newt]

Got paired with support morgana, didnt said anything , just build his/her full ap, everytime I got near to her , morgana just simply followed me along if I died she just stayed there hitting minion, if I recall she did the same. Never do her R or any active item or place a ward or something, we lose anyway.

Bronze is really weird sometimes

You played with a bot.

 

[Black-Wind]

Played Camille for the 2nd time just now. Sure, i was up against a Sion with Grasp which made things much easier (as someone who played a ton of Sion he doesn't like fighting mobile AA based champs ..) but yeah ... she's pretty damn fun!

 

[Leezard]

In competitive and high elo, absolutely the case. In lower elo solo queue? Nah, the breadth of champions that could competently jungle was much wider. You can actually see that in win rates right now.

What data are you using to compare the winrates now and before?

I mean, I haven't played low elo stuff in years, but I think it would be a bit strange if you could not just play whatever and win by outskilling your opponents like usual. Like AP Lucian mid.

 

[Tizoc]

this is cool



i mean, overwatch most definitely didn't invent "man talking to audience" style of communicating but it's nice to see the people making the games, it creates a link to someone that's not called ghostcrawler or scarizard

it shouldn't be the only method of communication but i like it

Butnahri's entire set involves getting close to the opponent

 

[drawkcaB]

What data are you using to compare the winrates now and before?

I probably spend the same amount of time going through analytic websites than I do playing the actual game, it's out of memory and looking at trends, etc.

But, just as an example, take a look at the jungle win rates on champion.gg and lolalytics.com and sort by jungler. You'll notice that roughly a third of junglers are above 50% win rate.

Instinctively, you'd think that half of junglers should be above and half below, right? Each match has two junglers, one will win, the other will lose, and these websites try to capture ~95% of jungle picks, so the 5% of picks that aren't being shown won't change the balance. When looking at other roles, you'll notice that the split between champions above 50% and below 50% win rates is about half**, as expected. But that's not the case in the jungle. Going back 4 years, I've never seen this happen before for any role. Even when there's some significant meta disturbances (pre-season patches, class updates, etc.) the ~50/50 trend for champions in any role has always held. This anomaly actually started at the tail end of season 6, but I didn't think much of it until the first pre-season patch hit and the imbalance became much stronger.

There's something weird going on. Like any sort of information from these sites, it's open to interpretation. These are just numbers. Making heads or tails of them is the hard part. For me, I focus on how win rates for in-meta junglers didn't change very much (save Ivern) but win rates for non-meta junglers fell by 2-3%, for the most part. The quirk here is that if you have all these champions that have lost 2-3%, where has that gone? I think it has to do with a general flight away from non-meta picks to in-meta picks (as evidenced by the disappearance of at least 4 junglers from tracking), and that has tempered the win rate gains in-meta picks.

**Actually, a bit over half for the other roles, but this is normal. I assume it's because there's some really awful picks players are making that aren't being captured because they're too rare and those are all losses.

I mean, I haven't played low elo stuff in years, but I think it would be a bit strange if you could not just play whatever and win by outskilling your opponents like usual. Like AP Lucian mid.

What you're forgetting is that there's a reason I'm being put up against low skill players: I am one. If I had the skill necessary to overcome the deficiencies of my off-meta picks I wouldn't be playing with and against these shit heels in the first place.

 

[Leezard]

I probably spend the same amount of time going through analytic websites than I do playing the actual game, it's out of memory and looking at trends, etc.

But, just as an example, take a look at the jungle win rates on champion.gg and lolalytics.com and sort by jungler. You'll notice that roughly a third of junglers are above 50% win rate.

Instinctively, you'd think that half of junglers should be above and half below, right? Each match has two junglers, one will win, the other will lose, and these websites try to capture ~95% of jungle picks, so the 5% of picks that aren't being shown won't change the balance. When looking at other roles, you'll notice that the split between champions above 50% and below 50% win rates is about half**, as expected. But that's not the case in the jungle. Going back 4 years, I've never seen this happen before for any role. Even when there's some significant meta disturbances (pre-season patches, class updates, etc.) the ~50/50 trend for champions in any role has always held. This anomaly actually started at the tail end of season 6, but I didn't think much of it until the first pre-season patch hit and the imbalance became much stronger.

There's something weird going on. Like any sort of information from these sites, it's open to interpretation. These are just numbers. Making heads or tails of them is the hard part. For me, I focus on how win rates for in-meta junglers didn't change very much (save Ivern) but win rates for non-meta junglers fell by 2-3%, for the most part. The quirk here is that if you have all these champions that have lost 2-3%, where has that gone? I think it has to do with a general flight away from non-meta picks to in-meta picks (as evidenced by the disappearance of at least 4 junglers from tracking), and that has tempered the win rate gains in-meta picks.

**Actually, a bit over half for the other roles, but this is normal. I assume it's because there's some really awful picks players are making that aren't being captured because they're too rare and those are all losses.



What you're forgetting is that there's a reason I'm being put up against low skill players: I am one. If I had the skill necessary to overcome the deficiencies of my off-meta picks I wouldn't be playing with and against these shit heels in the first place.

I get what you are saying and the conclusion might be sound for the plat+ data you get from the analytics websites if your memory of the past is correct, but I think it is flawed to use plat+ data from sites like champion.gg and still argue that low elo is different from plat+. Plat+ data won't reflect how it actually works in low elo, after all.


Premise 1:
We could earlier agree that it works approximately the same this season and previous seasons for plat+, i.e. there are 3-4 top picks, rest of the junglers are kinda bad compared to them.

Premise 2:
You're saying that low elo has historically been different than plat+ in that there have been significantly more viable junglers than the few top picks.

However, if both of the above premises are true then you can't use plat+ data to prove that something has changed in low elo; either the picks and win rates are different (i.e. not really correlated) or they are somewhat correlated.

Like, are you sure what's happening is not just that higher elo tactics have trickled down? Usually low elo is a couple of weeks behind the current meta, from what I have understood.

Actually, thinking about it some more, during the last few patches of season 6 we did have kind of many junglers be viable actually, jungle was in kind of an all right spot. Preseason did skew this and it hasn't recovered yet. Early season 6 was the same in that there was only a few viable picks though, and if I remember correctly you enjoy jungle Ekko, who was ridiculously strong for a while in season 6.

I'm not saying that there aren't issues with the jungle, just that I think the issues have been the same for a long time.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Is it Camille -> New champ -> Warwick Rework?

No WW is next

 

[PhillipCostigan]

No WW is next

ARH-WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Envelope]

give us a hint about the ww rework costi

 

[PhillipCostigan]

ok

I'm writing the reveal

and the champion spotlight script

I know absolutely everything about the rework

 

[Envelope]

ok

I'm writing the reveal

and the champion spotlight script

I know absolutely everything about the rework

does he keep his dance

 

[Leezard]

You're moving up in the world, Costy.

From new player stuff to esports stuff to champ reveals. Nice!

 

[PhillipCostigan]

does he keep his dance

hrm...

You're moving up in the world, Costy.

From new player stuff to esports stuff to champ reveals. Nice!

Yeah this probably won't be a regular thing since I don't work in LA but it was a cool opportunity. Hopefully I can find a way to do more (I was able to do this cos I was in LA for a couple of weeks after Worlds)

 

[Stone Ocean]

ok

I'm writing the reveal

and the champion spotlight script

I know absolutely everything about the rework

Let's see how good your pun game is, Costy

Also remember, if you ever get to design a champion = scythe grill

You owe me this damn it

 

[Terbinator]

Having just fell victim to it, Rengar rework when?

Probably the most toxic kit in the game by a country mile.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Having just fell victim to it, Rengar rework when?

Probably the most toxic kit in the game by a country mile.

With 10 bans coming who caressss

I'm wasting my ban on Rengar every single time until Riot Aatroxfies him.

 

[Leezard]

Yeah this probably won't be a regular thing since I don't work in LA but it was a cool opportunity. Hopefully I can find a way to do more (I was able to do this cos I was in LA for a couple of weeks after Worlds)

I see, still cool though.

 

[Terbinator]

With 10 bans coming who caressss

I'm wasting my ban on Rengar every single time until Riot Aatroxfies him.

10 bans confirmed?

 

[Leezard]

10 bans confirmed?

It's all but confirmed.

 

[kayos90]

ok

I'm writing the reveal

and the champion spotlight script

I know absolutely everything about the rework

Costy. Get out. You don't belong here. This is only for plebs.

We will all judge you heavily if we find Phreak saying a pun during the spotlight.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

It wouldn't be a spotlight if there weren't some awful puns

 

[Wolf Akela]

costy ww rework will have n-hit passive and % health true damage ryt

But for real, I really think his E is now his passive, and he'll have increased healing instead of stacking flat passive heal. P, Q and W will be 100% gone/reworked because they're the least interesting/unique parts of his kit. I'm guessing Magewick is no more.

So stoked for the WW rework. I had a lot of ideas for his abilities. He was the reason I started playing League. First champ I bought and he was 6300IP on Garena.

 

[dimb]

I still really like playing Warwick a lot. Chasing people down and getting the ult just always feels good to me. Would be nice if his early gank potential was just a little bit better, but I'm pretty excited for his rework.