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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
Lol, Ghostcrawler comes off as really clueless right here. He thinks ADC mains are complaining about assassins lol.
Welcome back Dre!When vayne is considered a top priority pick, you know the role is trash lmao.
After they nerfed bloodthirster in season 4 things have gotten worse ever since.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
there's a reason why everyone blamed him when he worked on wow lol
I think the bigger point of that clip is to highlight the amount of time/energy it takes to deal with a Poppy who isn't even at full build. It took a minute for multiple people to take her down, and she still took people down with her.
It's a 2 item Draven vs. a 2.5 item Poppy. Poppy has the item and more importantly the level advantage. I don't see the relevance of Poppy not having a full build.
Draven auto attacked Poppy, 40 times, I counted. I don't think it should take nearly that many. Even from behind.
Is there a way to slow down the clip? I'd like to count this for myself, but it's difficult with all the effects going off. I counted roughly 40 AAs in total with a slim majority targetted at Poppy.
Stone Ocean
Member
Everything in this game is an assassin to ADCs right now, it checks out
Bot is a monkey fiesta in silver right now. If you're half decent you can just eat people alive.One of the benefits of playing in low elo is that the current meta barely matters
I could prob even get away with playing Lucian right now
Everything in this game is an assassin to ADCs right now, it checks out
I'm not really sure what people want done about this. More defensive stats on adcs? Less damage from every other role?
I personally think they should buff adc late game to make it feel worth getting shit on for 30+ minutes and justify the target that will always be on the adcs back but I think the competitive implications of that are not great
Well, not having Yasuo in your promos does wonders I guess. Gonna take a break from solo q on my main until they fix ADC next patch.
Grind with me on your smurf, I'll be around tonight at 8pst
Stone Ocean
Member
What I want is a build path that makes sure a Poppy with half finished tank items and a Sheen is gonna get blown to smithereens if she tries to 1v1 me.
Late game isn't a problem, no one is complaining about that. It's early/mid that's completely fucked, by the time ADCs are relevant the game's almost over and likely other lanes already decided it. If you get a lead bot it doesn't mean jack shit unless it's a stupid "open mid" lead.
Late game isn't a problem, no one is complaining about that. It's early/mid that's completely fucked, by the time ADCs are relevant the game's almost over and likely other lanes already decided it. If you get a lead bot it doesn't mean jack shit unless it's a stupid "open mid" lead.
What I want is a build path that makes sure a Poppy with half finished tank items and a Sheen is gonna get blown to smithereens if she tries to 1v1 me.
Late game isn't a problem, no one is complaining about that. It's early/mid that's completely fucked, by the time ADCs are relevant the game's almost over and likely other lanes already decided it. If you get a lead bot it doesn't mean jack shit unless it's a stupid "open mid" lead.
Poppy is a tank that's just not gonna happen. If adcs have good early and mid game we end up with 8 of them on the map
As soon as vayne is carrying games too early they nerf that shit quick, but colossus continues running wild.
It's not that the tanks are too tanky, they just too too much damage. They removed strength of the ages from the game and replaced it with the even more broken colussus. Seriously if you can't balance these trees just remove masteries from the game and let the champions do their job.
Also jungle camp repawn timers are too long with the exception of red and blue. It gives too much time to gank and no tough choice between ganking and farming. Instead now you get the best of both worlds. Why do you get so much carry potential from there with mostly uncontested farm? What a joke. Tune in this November for the yearly jungle rework. Maybe they should go back to season 4 jungle timers.
It's not that the tanks are too tanky, they just too too much damage. They removed strength of the ages from the game and replaced it with the even more broken colussus. Seriously if you can't balance these trees just remove masteries from the game and let the champions do their job.
Also jungle camp repawn timers are too long with the exception of red and blue. It gives too much time to gank and no tough choice between ganking and farming. Instead now you get the best of both worlds. Why do you get so much carry potential from there with mostly uncontested farm? What a joke. Tune in this November for the yearly jungle rework. Maybe they should go back to season 4 jungle timers.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
the reason tanks do damage is cause otherwise they'd just be ignored in teamfights
the other option is giving all tanks huge amounts of CC so they can be useful
the other option is giving all tanks huge amounts of CC so they can be useful
All I keep wondering about that Poppy clip is how red team got that big to begin with based off their boneheaded plays.
Granted, the wording is a little stuffy, but it's not entirely saying ADCs feel bad because assassins get to murder them. More the gamestate adjustment that comes with higher value in assassin picks crowds out the thing they do well coupled with losing the ability to even do the thing they do well in the first place (both in terms of itemization and literally being unable to do it).
Granted, the wording is a little stuffy, but it's not entirely saying ADCs feel bad because assassins get to murder them. More the gamestate adjustment that comes with higher value in assassin picks crowds out the thing they do well coupled with losing the ability to even do the thing they do well in the first place (both in terms of itemization and literally being unable to do it).
Grats on Diamond Newt. Anyone try the Trinity Force -> Blade build on Lucian yet? Certainly not an answer to the state ADC's are on but saw a video on it and now i'm interested. Will be interesting to see what Riot does the new few weeks and what LCS teams do at the start of the season.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Greg clarifying what he meant
So, a few things.
My initial post was too broad. I was trying to say that we messed with a bunch of stuff in preseason that can affect ADC balance, including Assassins, Jungle, masteries and items. This caused some confusion, and that's my bad.
Second, I still feel like a lot of this discussion is about Poppy (and to a lesser extent, Ziggs). If those two champions are the only problem, that's a much different scale than fundamental changes to all tank itemization or buffing all ADCs. I say this partially because we're hearing a lot about Poppy in North America and Europe, probably based on the video, but less in say Korea and China. So far.
Third, assassins may not have ended up as much of a problem for ADCs after preseason, but I still think ganking did. Maybe it's tanky or generalist junglers that are doing the ganking, but I think that's a jungle problem, not a tank class problem. While we made this change a lot earlier, the first tower bonus probably makes bot lane a more juicy target for ganking junglers and teleporting top laners. The preseason changes could have just exacerbated a trend that was already happening.
Fourth, the Marsksman power curve changed to an even later game focus. Fervor + flat pen gave way to Warlords + crit. ADCs probably don't feel like they have a build that gets them a power spike in early game. This is something we need to look into more.
We're going to try to prepare some messaging that goes into all of this in a bit more detail, hopefully with some future plans to help address things. Patch 7.1 has some Poppy nerfs, but 7.1 is pretty light overall. We'll talk more about 7.2 changes soon.
Long term, I still think the game would benefit from more flexibility in what champs are played in what lanes. That's a 2-3 year problem, not a patch 7.2 problem.
Best point is everyone is complaining about tanks but I don't think it's a coincidence that poppy is the only one that is ever getting mentioned
I'm not really sure what people want done about this. More defensive stats on adcs? Less damage from every other role?
In fairness to Riot, they've identified this problem a long time ago and tried to address it by giving ADCs utility, particularly in the early game so they can be useful before their multi-item spikes, and that's certainly a good way to go about it.
But that's also only true for new ADCs (Kalista, Jhin) which means that to bring all the older, pure damage ADCs up to snuff would require many total reworks at this point. I'm not even sure players want that to begin with anyways. Vayne and Lucian provide fuck all for utility and regardless of how weak or strong they are they always have high play rates. Some players really want that pure power fantasy out of their ADC champs.
I personally think they should buff adc late game to make it feel worth getting shit on for 30+ minutes and justify the target that will always be on the adcs back but I think the competitive implications of that are not great
You'll just get players complaining that because their team is shit they can't even get to late game to carry. All you'd get is every ADC player acting like a Vayne main. Is that what you want, for Newt to crank shit up to 11?
Maybe this would be a good time to replace crit xd
Hallelujah.
It's not that the tanks are too tanky, they just too too much damage. They removed strength of the ages from the game and replaced it with the even more broken colussus. Seriously if you can't balance these trees just remove masteries from the game and let the champions do their job.
Praise be, praise be.
If we're down this path already, let's get rid of runes too.
One thing I'd like to throw out there, that I haven't really seen people mention much, is that support players have migrated in droves to ranged supports, and outside of Janna, none of those champions can peel the way an Alistar, or Braum, or Taric, or Tahm, etc. can. It's not shocking that a ranged support that fulfills one the most important roles of tank supports has been at, or near the top, of support win rates for years.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
adcs should stay as a late game carry
that's the downside to playing adc tbh
if you give them too good an early game, then they'll have too good a mid game, and an even better late game
that's the downside to playing adc tbh
if you give them too good an early game, then they'll have too good a mid game, and an even better late game
For all the Colossus is OP going on, it's at least something you can play with where SotA was more just an "eventually they have free HP which is cool." It's still out of line but it's at least windowed when it's used.
In all honesty, considering how much of a miss Poacher's Dirk seems to be (I say with minimal stats on it in front of me, rip), I'm actually a little surprised ADCs didn't get some love this way. Though I say that mostly without knowing too exacts the ADC powerspike woe since optoplanehype.
All signs point to I should poke around Reddit some more while tweaking my post.
Just give ADCs an okayish earlygame. The ghost blade meta was fine, there was a lot of varying champions, varying builds.
In all honesty, considering how much of a miss Poacher's Dirk seems to be (I say with minimal stats on it in front of me, rip), I'm actually a little surprised ADCs didn't get some love this way. Though I say that mostly without knowing too exacts the ADC powerspike woe since optoplanehype.
All signs point to I should poke around Reddit some more while tweaking my post.
Stone Ocean
Member
Greg's clarification eases my worries. Now to survive another month of this shit while Riot fixes it.
We lost a lot of late game power in S6 to get better early/mid options, then those options were nerfed to hell. I'm not asking to one shot tanks, what I want is that if I get items you better have some teammates with you if you're not building damage.
You mean like in S4 where it was still only 2 ADCs per game?Poppy is a tank that's just not gonna happen. If adcs have good early and mid game we end up with 8 of them on the map
We lost a lot of late game power in S6 to get better early/mid options, then those options were nerfed to hell. I'm not asking to one shot tanks, what I want is that if I get items you better have some teammates with you if you're not building damage.
The problem is, not every ADC is good lategame. There's early game ADCs like Draven, Kalista and Lucian that are just garbage right now.adcs should stay as a late game carry
that's the downside to playing adc tbh
if you give them too good an early game, then they'll have too good a mid game, and an even better late game
To a lesser extent, Sivir and Ezreal too.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
The problem is, not every ADC is good lategame. There's early game ADCs like Draven, Kalista and Lucian that are just garbage right now.
To a lesser extent, Sivir and Ezreal too.
hmmmm
the easiest solution would be to delete adcs
Greg's clarification eases my worries. Now to survive another month of this shit while Riot fixes it.
You mean like in S4 where it was still only 2 ADCs per game?
We lost a lot of late game power in S6 to get better early/mid options, then those options were nerfed to hell. I'm not asking to one shot tanks, what I want is that if I get items you better have some teammates with you if you're not building damage.
Poppy was ahead in every metric in that clip though. She did too much damage probably but after ulting Soraka away I have no idea why people think she shouldn't have shit on that draven
Stone Ocean
Member
Yeah, ADCs have varying power curves and strengths. Some sacrifice damage for utility, some range for damage, mobility for range, mobility for damage, and so on. Some spike early, others late, all in different ways.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Nerfs to Jungle XP, Poppy, Camille
.
ADC is such an outdated idea.
They need to have 'jobs', not just 'well this champion auto attacks'.
Siegers, pushers, defenders, initiators, peelers, etc. Not 'mage', 'auto attacker', 'tank'.
I think they tried something like this at the end of season 4 with juggernauts (woof) but they need to take it a step further, for all champions. I'm not saying it's easy, but champions need to be specialized based on what they do and not on what kind of damage they deal or what their auto attack range is.
They need to have 'jobs', not just 'well this champion auto attacks'.
Siegers, pushers, defenders, initiators, peelers, etc. Not 'mage', 'auto attacker', 'tank'.
I think they tried something like this at the end of season 4 with juggernauts (woof) but they need to take it a step further, for all champions. I'm not saying it's easy, but champions need to be specialized based on what they do and not on what kind of damage they deal or what their auto attack range is.
Stone Ocean
Member
She had one armor item and as much gold worth of items as the Draven. Draven had almost 10cs a minute, two kills worth of his passive and a PD which reduces her damage by 12% and kited her flawlessly, how the hell is she easily killing him if Soraka wasn't there okay?Poppy was ahead in every metric in that clip though. She did too much damage probably but after ulting Soraka away I have no idea why people think she shouldn't have shit on that draven
Jungle spawn changes need to be reverted I think there are just a lot of times where ganking offers no risk. You're not losing out on exp or farm which is amplifying jungle pressure and contributing to a lot of problems bot laners are having I think
She also had another finished health item and was up two levels. Tanks shouldn't have to run from damage that's insane
She had one armor item and as much gold worth of items as the Draven. Draven had almost 10cs a minute, two kills worth of his passive and a PD which reduces her damage by 12% and kited her flawlessly, how the hell is she easily killing him if Soraka wasn't there okay?
She also had another finished health item and was up two levels. Tanks shouldn't have to run from damage that's insane
Honestly, a bigger problem than Poppy is Hecarim and Vi. To a lesser extent Lee Sin too.
They have really low risk dives that they can pull on a botlane.
To be honest, this isn't just an ADC issue, it's kind of a jungle issue too.
Definitely. Jungle XP and the type of junglers that the camps favor is a major problem right now.
I feel like the marksman update did an incredible job of differentiating between most of the ADCs.ADC is such an outdated idea.
They need to have 'jobs', not just 'well this champion auto attacks'.
Siegers, pushers, defenders, initiators, peelers, etc. Not 'mage', 'auto attacker', 'tank'.
I think they tried something like this at the end of season 4 with juggernauts (woof) but they need to take it a step further, for all champions. I'm not saying it's easy, but champions need to be specialized based on what they do and not on what kind of damage they deal or what their auto attack range is.
Guys... Draven auto attacked the Poppy 40 TIMES. Think about that.
maybe he should position better and crit more often
Guys... Draven auto attacked the Poppy 40 TIMES. Think about that.
I'm not sure it's exactly 40 but it's close enough to be splitting hairs. Either way, he also auto'd into two CotC procs, five passive shields, a Windspeaker'd Redemption, and Nami heals throughout the course of the clip. So I mean, it's also worth taking into account how many AAs weren't actually doing much of anything and, up to the Redemption, he was actually in position to win the fight outright if not for the pathing to the wall.
Edit: Not that I think this devalues the base point or anything, just there's more to it than 2 item vs 2.5 item PERFECT KITING etc. etc.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
draven should've built last whisper
Stone Ocean
Member
His empowered AAs were critting for 150. Even without the shields he'd still need like 20 autos. Other ADCs would do even less damage unless it was a Vayne.I'm not sure it's exactly 40 but it's close enough to be splitting hairs. Either way, he also auto'd into two CotC procs, five passive shields, a Windspeaker'd Redemption, and Nami heals throughout the course of the clip. So I mean, it's also worth taking into account how many AAs weren't actually doing much of anything and, up to the Redemption, he was actually in position to win the fight outright if not for the pathing to the wall.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Poppy is fine. Remove colossus and eventually all masteries. They don't know what to do with them.
and runes while you're at it
Stone Ocean
Member
wtf 2 breezies
His empowered AAs were critting for 150. Even without the shields he'd still need like 20 autos. Other ADCs would do even lesz damage.
Depends on the when she's taking them? Like, there's a reason I'm trying to point out there's more to it than just raw AAs over 60s. Most the crits hit for ~258 when no Windspeaker, doubled Steadfast Presence, etc. So on average they were erring closer to the 200 mark, slightly over that. To compare, Lucian took 334 damage from the crits.
Like my late edit says, I don't disagree with the base premise, just that a lot of the presentation of the facts is disingenuous.
Edit: Put another way, I'm more curious in the raw actual amount of damage she took over the course of the whole thing and gauge how appropriate that HP pool is for the engagement and when and how the damage happened.
wtf two shenswtf 2 breezies
Stone Ocean
Member
Hopefully by the time people remember Naut exists ADCs will have been buffed.Nautilus is actually better than Poppy rn but people are too busy complaining about her to notice. After poppy nerfs go through he's gonna be waiting in the wings to kill adcs in one rotation while taking no return damage
SenorArdilla
Member
There's no way that a melee champ is ever going bot as an ADC unless they're horrendously broken.
There's no way that a melee champ is ever going bot as an ADC unless they're horrendously broken.
never 4get morde bot