-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
Stone Ocean
Member
The only thing I dislike about new WW is how his right hand claw isn't more... clawy.
It looked much cooler in the teaser with it being much longer.
It looked much cooler in the teaser with it being much longer.
I see your hiatus hasn't changed your shit opinionsWhy get that Ahri chroma when you can just use Foxfire aka the best one?
It normalizes damage against tanks and squishy targets. If only flat values were used in champ design base damage values would have to be significant to let champions with few scaling options deal damage to other tanks, but that has a knock on effect of smashing squishy targets.
%damage isn't really about letting damage be relevant late. It also ensures late game damage isn't overbearing to soft targets.
ok im home, off to read patch notes and watch werewoolf videos
idk what hentai has to do with anything lol
is what i'm thinking?
we've all done it sometime but i'm confused cos here it took like one post before they went "let's just drop it"
the best
if you make a post and refuse to elaborate or discuss about it then you're shitposting, easy as that
idk what hentai has to do with anything lol
probably bjork into tank?
is what i'm thinking?
Stone Ocean
Member
Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone
Yoooo
Sr Kitsune
Member
Why get that Ahri chroma when you can just use Foxfire aka the best one?
You should checkout Arcade Ahri, that is a cool skin too.
Speaking of Ahri:
chromas for dynasty Ahri? thx.
was gonna post that one the other day but figured these losers wouldn't be able to appreciate it
well if you already have all ahris you need something new here and then
i'm gonna have to save a lot of ip for 6 months to be able to buy all the chromas with ip lol
Why get that Ahri chroma when you can just use Foxfire aka the best one?
well if you already have all ahris you need something new here and then
i'm gonna have to save a lot of ip for 6 months to be able to buy all the chromas with ip lol
?
Stone Ocean
Member
He basically has a global version of Nidalee's passive, which sounds awesome.
but we already knew that
imo the e is the strongest part of his kit
2.5s 35% dmg reduction+aoe hard cc is an amazing one point wonder
i bet new warwick will be like always invading and murdering enemy jungler and shit now lol
this is awesome btw
i'm gonna just go and say costy wrote this
Stone Ocean
Member
I know, I hadn't read it thoroughly and didn't knew it was global.
Stonewall works fast holy shit. His first clear is super healthy and easy, sounds like WW all right.
My problem isn't with %hp damage. My problem is with %max hp TRUE damage. It prevents tanks from actually being tanky and makes it harder to balance certain champs.
In order to get rid of this mechanic and have it make sense, you'd need to adjust the health values of tanks across the board so they're at the right number when at full build. This is no easy task. You'd probably have to nerf infinite health scaling things like sion's W passive and change abilities like darius ult to a physical damage execute or something. Veigar and Nasus would probably have to be looked at. Tank damage would have to be nerfed across the board to make sure they aren't 1 shotting people while being unkillable.
Items like BOTRK, last whisper, void staff, and liandry's would still be in the game to deal with health/resistance stackers and prevent them from dominating the game by default. The overall idea is to make tanks actually feel tanky though, without resorting to %max hp true damage to deal with them. You could actually have a proper rock/paper/scissors class balance in place without defaulting to vayne who just right clicks you for manaless, uncounterable damage. You could finally balance that champion! In my opinion, manaless, %max hp, uncounterable true damage is not healthy for the game! Flat true damage is ok, but there should always be a way to mitigate damage using items.
We need a proper Tank>Burst>DPS>Tank dynamic in the game. My idea for the game requires the numbers to be in just the right place for it to be successful, but I think it would be a more balanced game. It's difficult to achieve that, because the game is hard enough to balance as it is with all the masteries/runes (which I would delete btw), and my changes are a bit dramatic for the game. There are so many variables to consider.
The game has also existed in it's current form for a very long time, and my changes are more of a "League of Legends 2" sort of thing with a new engine and map.
PhillipCostigan
Member
my initial assumption was spot on then. he has no idea why % max health true damage exists and why it's GOOD game design when used appropriately.
Think about the characters that actually have the mechanic and then try to think why they have it and why others don't.
Think about the characters that actually have the mechanic and then try to think why they have it and why others don't.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
warwick for example
he's a character meant to hunt down other characters. It makes sense that he has max HP % damage because it wouldn't be a fantasy if he would be stopped dead in his tracks by enough armor/health, and it would allow him to do his job. So someone like Warwick can have the same kill potential against a tank as he does against a squishy.
Granted it's only on his ultimate so...eh.
he's a character meant to hunt down other characters. It makes sense that he has max HP % damage because it wouldn't be a fantasy if he would be stopped dead in his tracks by enough armor/health, and it would allow him to do his job. So someone like Warwick can have the same kill potential against a tank as he does against a squishy.
Granted it's only on his ultimate so...eh.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
tbf
it would help costy if you clarified to counter fei, and not just be vague and ambiguous.
it would help costy if you clarified to counter fei, and not just be vague and ambiguous.
The issue is you're incorrect in this assumption about the game and how things work at a fairly fundamental level. So it's mostly just seeing a low level (unrelated to elo, before it gets taken that way) understanding of systems and someone leaving an echo chamber rather than someone's great ideas being lost in a sea of ignorance and status quo. Convincing yourself it's a great idea isn't the same thing as it actually being a great idea, especially when a lot of the nuance in there is left to "once the numbers are all right!"
There's a potentially interesting discussion to be had of the relative value of eHP / ttk / etc. components and all that, especially in light of suddenly everyone having shields available to them suddenly warping the field a bit and causing this last batch of recent tank controversy, but that still means the base assumption is just off.
PhillipCostigan
Member
huh? we're talking about % max health true damage, not just % max health damage. And it's on his Q, not his ult...
There are two (count them) champions in the game that have % max health true damage as a mechanic - Vayne and Fiora. The first is the tank killing marksman. She's low range, all auto-attack based and her primary strength is that she's incredibly good at shredding through tanks. That's a cool strategic niche.
The other is the grand duelist in the top lane. She's meant to crush everything 1 v 1, and % max health true damage allows her to beat tanks as well. You shouldn't be fighting Fiora 1 v 1 because that's where she excels. Again though, she makes tradeoffs. She's less impactful in a teamfight than a tank. She has only reactive, defensive CC. The % max health true damage allows her to fill her role as a split-pushing, target-agnostic duelist that crushes everything 1 v 1.
Both are good design decisions. The issue is you take the mechanic in a vacuum, vastly overestimate its prevalence and then don't consider why it exists, why it's appropriate for those characters etc.
Just think about this stuff a little more dude.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
oh sorry for getting my terminology incorrect on a new champion
but yeah, that's what I meant. And on his Q? Even better
Dreams-Visions
Member
so aggressive, sensei
Vincent Alexander
Member
We got patch notes?! Time to make some supper and read some patch notes.
I don't think fiora and vayne are damage niches that need to exist under my system. You really think they cannot exist in the game without %max hp true damage? I think it's unhealthy for the game because it invalidates resistances.
There is a happy medium that can be reached with champs like this. You can still have tank shredding champs without going overboard.
You see, my changes require items in the game to allow people to counter-build against anything. Items should dictate the game more and not just as stat sticks. Many champ's kits would have to be adjusted, which is why I said it is crazy. I hesitated from elaborating before because it goes off into a wild tangent which requires a brand new game to be made, but I'm glad I elaborated. I guess your design philosophy and mine is different.
PhillipCostigan
Member
I didn't even mention how execution-dependent Fiora's damage is. I dunno, this argument just frustrates me a lot because I feel like "fucking % max health true damage riot pls" has turned into this shitty meme and is perpetuated by people who take it at face value and try to craft huge solutions to a problem that literally doesn't exist and don't bother to take the time to really think about why it exists, where it's implemented, on whom it's implemented, how it's implemented and why it's implemented.
Why is it overboard? There's room in a game for champions with strategic niches that allow them to differentiate themselves from other champions. Dedicated tank killers with meaningful tradeoffs is a very useful and cool strategic niche. Otherwise the game is dominated by tanks who have no counters. It also doesn't completely invalidate resistances (one mechanic a kit does not make) and again you're looking at the mechanic in a vacuum without looking at the champions it's implemented on and how it's implemented. Like... I dunno what else to say to you. Maybe it's a bad mechanic in whatever game you have designed in your head but in League of Legends it's the opposite. It's good design.
Why is it overboard? There's room in a game for champions with strategic niches that allow them to differentiate themselves from other champions. Dedicated tank killers with meaningful tradeoffs is a very useful and cool strategic niche. Otherwise the game is dominated by tanks who have no counters. It also doesn't completely invalidate resistances (one mechanic a kit does not make) and again you're looking at the mechanic in a vacuum without looking at the champions it's implemented on and how it's implemented. Like... I dunno what else to say to you. Maybe it's a bad mechanic in whatever game you have designed in your head but in League of Legends it's the opposite. It's good design.
the idea of % max hp true dmg is that those champions are impossible to outstat
in a condition of equal strength you just have to outplay them cos if not their numbers will always trump yours as a tank
so basically what it's saying is you need to work as a team to defeat them, you lay on the cc and someone blows em up, you're not supposed to just run them down like you would kill jhin or something
crucially these champions also have a ton of mobility and are extremely good in 1v1s, further cmeenting the fact that you're not gonna be able to beat em on your own
i wouldn't exactly declare this is like "good design", but it's intentional and it serves a purpose
if you feel helpless against vayne or fiora the least likely culprit is the % max hp true dmg
feels like you make way too big of a deal for a very specific mechanic that is not really problematic
lmao i love you breezy
in a condition of equal strength you just have to outplay them cos if not their numbers will always trump yours as a tank
so basically what it's saying is you need to work as a team to defeat them, you lay on the cc and someone blows em up, you're not supposed to just run them down like you would kill jhin or something
crucially these champions also have a ton of mobility and are extremely good in 1v1s, further cmeenting the fact that you're not gonna be able to beat em on your own
i wouldn't exactly declare this is like "good design", but it's intentional and it serves a purpose
if you feel helpless against vayne or fiora the least likely culprit is the % max hp true dmg
feels like you make way too big of a deal for a very specific mechanic that is not really problematic
lmao i love you breezy
don't call me sensei -__-
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I'm a big supporter of things that 'break' the game.
Vayne and Fiora being the only ones who do it are fine, because they're not insta pick/bans. At all. They do serve niche focuses*.
If ADCs ever get 'fixed', then Vayne will go back to being mid tier, because other adcs perform better. Fiora on the other hand seems really middle of the road right now.
*Not up to the pick/ban meta.
Vayne and Fiora being the only ones who do it are fine, because they're not insta pick/bans. At all. They do serve niche focuses*.
If ADCs ever get 'fixed', then Vayne will go back to being mid tier, because other adcs perform better. Fiora on the other hand seems really middle of the road right now.
*Not up to the pick/ban meta.
Where you and I fundamentally disagree is that I don't believe the game should have a character that you cannot outstat or counter with resistances in any way.
sadly vayne and nu fiora have never been niche and had never been picked for their tank busting abilities, just for being the lee sins of their respective roles
(being niche because they're trash at the time doesn't count)
(being niche because they're trash at the time doesn't count
)i don't necessarily disagree with you in that % max hp true dmg is at the very least questionable, i just find it to be mostly a non-issue
BreezyLimbo
Banned
sadly vayne and nu fiora have never been niche and had never been picked for their tank busting abilities, just for being the lee sins of their respective roles
(being niche because they're trash at the time doesn't count
Right because right now the meta heavily favors tanks compared to last season, so it makes sense that Fiora and Vayne are hot picks right now.
Hrmmm.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
why even play mobas then lol.
Also, there can still be a hierarchy in the game in terms of damage. You can still have hypercarries and regular carries, but it doesn't have to be this uncounterable damage bs.
You can tweak the numbers to have it make sense. I'm not saying it's super easy, but it's possible.
You can tweak the numbers to have it make sense. I'm not saying it's super easy, but it's possible.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
boy if he played HotS he would be frustrated
cause that game has aloooooot of bullshit(But in a good way that doesn't make it feel broken >_>)
also what's wrong with hentai
idk where fiora went but i'm guessing she got nerfed to oblivion or something?
vayne is always one of the most picked champions. adcs just like to pretend they're doublelift and don't realize that's not a compliment
idk where fiora went but i'm guessing she got nerfed to oblivion or something?
I feel like this is ignoring that there are means of dealing with %Max HP as True. Or, rather, that there are more components to those champion's actual kill pattern than simply smashing %True at your face and eHP / TTK is more than just raw resistance components v damage.
It's less strict inability to outstat and more giving means to normalize how long it takes to kill targets. It's also not like either of these champions are really stuffing %Max HP as True as their primary source of killing anything.
In general I feel like the claims of uncounterable are missing the mark by a lot.
It's less strict inability to outstat and more giving means to normalize how long it takes to kill targets. It's also not like either of these champions are really stuffing %Max HP as True as their primary source of killing anything.
In general I feel like the claims of uncounterable are missing the mark by a lot.
PhillipCostigan
Member
strategic niche =/= niche champion
Fiora is picked because she can beat stuff 1 v 1 and split push well. The meta hasn't been about that for a while, top lane's had more of a reliance on playmaking champions that can make a big impact when they TP in (which Fiora can't). If we go back to that meta, she'll be good again. Strategic niche.
Vayne in a way is similar. Vayne became popular recently because she was OP. She got nerfed, she's still popular and good because she can deal with the current tank heavy meta. That Poppy video everyone shows with the Draven struggling to dent her? Vayne doesn't have that issue. She'd still get dicked by a Draven in lane and sucks in fighter top lane metas because she gets deleted. She's good now because the game state is good for her.
i think considering %max hp true dmg a problem in general is missing the mark by a lot
i mostly dislike the concept of strategic niches in league because champions are rarely picked for what they uniquely bring to the table. it's usually just a food chain of opness that cycles about and today it's leblanc, syndra and ryze and next month it'll be cassiopeia, ziggs and viktor, or whatever.
and sure the reason they're picked is often because the op champions are the ones that align with the meta but i have never seen a situation in which someone was like "oh they have too many tanks, i'll pick vayne to counter that"
that's a thing about league in general that i really wish was better but has been historically difficult to improve
but you're right, there's definitely a strategic niche for both champions and it's not suprising that it overlaps since both have this same mechanic, which is important for the 1v1 me bro niche but it's also not the one deciding factor (say, riven doesn't have it)
maybe it's an interesting question to wonder why it's ok for fiora to have it and not riven?
Peanut Butter
Member
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Thats why Vayne and Fiora are strategic niches and not the rule
Theyre allowed to have mechanic on being able to kill a tank as fast as a squishy
And there still is a clear difference. Squishies will die significantly faster by virtue of all the non-Max HP% as True components. That kind of HP shredding serves to trim from the top end of the ttk without becoming the baseline of it. If Vayne or Fiora was dealing with it per hit then it'd be a different argument but that's not how their kill pattern works at all; Vayne is still facing the bulk of her time spent killing someone locked in non-Max HP% shred. Fiora's is windowed via a mechanic.
Personally, it's that Fiora's kit is better served with this open window design. Riven is a lot more all-in or brute force trading. The former is more gated than the latter as well which is a pretty big deal; Riven getting to decide, say, 5 hits of HP% shred is a lot different than ult dependent or an entire time-based mechanic.
PhillipCostigan
Member
because they're two different champions? and to be honest two different classes.
Fiora is closer to Yasuo and Yi. They're slayers - damage agnostic champions that excel in extended fights with situational defensive abilities (Riposte vs Windwall vs Meditate).
They serve different functions - Fiora is the 1 v 1 me I don't care who you are champion. Yasuo is the dream scenario outplaying you 1 v 9 champion. Yi is the reset cleanup champion that takes over fights. Same class, similar attributes, different niches and executions.
Riven is more of a diver. She's not damage-agnostic. Like other divers, she has a less situational defensive tool (low cooldown shield dash) and she wants to dive on your backline and kill them. She's more mobile and bursty than some other divers, but her cc isn't as strong as Vi's, she can't sustain forever like Aatrox etc.
Riven and Fiora are very different champions with different roles in the game. It's appropriate for Fiora to have the mechanic, but not Riven. It's not Riven's job to do what Fiora does.
Stone Ocean
Member
Why is it ok to not be able to be outstated defensively but you can be outstated offensively?
Must be a tank player.
Must be a tank player.
there is a clear difference
silver bolts 1, 2 and even 3 deal more dmg to squishies because they're normal autos that are reduced by resistances. it's only the bonus % max hp true dmg on the third bolt that is target agnostic
Stone Ocean
Member
Same for Fiora, she needs several vital procs to kill a tank while vs a squishy she might not even need her passive.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
nah tonight im clive owen rowin through a future frozen on overwatch.