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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.

Z

zkylon

zkylewd
For pro, the primary reason is to increase champion diversity, largely for the sake of the viewer experience. We think the game is more exciting when diversity is higher, assuming it is possible to achieve higher diversity without sacrificing overall game health. A secondary benefit is to hopefully create a more strategic and interesting champ select. Teams can try and build particular comps, while trying to shut down particular comps for the other side, which we think will be fun to watch (more on this in just a second).
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i'm still unsure why everyone is so confident that more bans will create more diversity and strategy

i understand the idea, i'm just not super certain we'll get higher diversity out of it

Black-Wind said:
Ok, I have 6360 IP now. Looking for a new champ to play.

For top I'm thinking of either ... Zac, Rek or Kled.

That or I might buy Ori to have something that's mid and kinda supporty?
Click to expand...
ori is awesome but very particular and skill reliant so maybe not the exact mid you want if you're not gonna main that role

idk

---

edit: also this refunds thing feels super dumb

League of Legends content is intended to be permanent. However we want players to feel good about the content they purchase, so we developed the refund feature to give every player a solution for those rare situations where they purchase content and quickly regret it, and are sure that they will never want to use that content in the future. Many players have never used their refunds, while others have used one, two, or three of them over time.

We established a limit of three refunds and still believe that is the right number (this gives players leeway to refund purchases but also protects the overall system from abuse). We've explored granting more refunds at times, but discovered that the majority of players would prefer free content instead, so each year we have steadily increased the amount of content players receive just for playing the game. Refunds and free content both come at considerable cost to Riot, so we have to carefully focus on which to prioritize to deliver value to players and protect our ability to operate as a business.

That said, while we have no current plans to issue more refund tokens in 2017, it is something we will continue to explore in the future as more players hit the three refund cap.
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"the majority of players would prefer free content instead" feels like such a weird argument to make about this

ofc you'd prefer free shit over refund tokens, but being able refund stuff you bought and dislike is like a basic store functionality that every game should have

like, i bought captain mf because the splash was great but then i played her and saw the skin in-game looks super goofy thanks to her terrible animations and should be able to refund it

riot is more than capable of finding a solution that prevents abuse. just copy the steam thing, if you use the skin for more than two hours or two weeks pass, then you can't refund it anymore, and if you refund too many things then you're shit out of luck. they can tune it for league and make it two games or something, idk

just feels like a really shitty patronizing excuse

refunds don't cost riot anything, they don't give you your money back
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
zkylon said:
i'm still unsure why everyone is so confident that more bans will create more diversity and strategy

i understand the idea, i'm just not super certain we'll get higher diversity out of it
Click to expand...

Let's say theoretically, all the 'meta' picks were banned. (And for this example, let's say this is all the meta picks, not just 10)

What happens? People have to find new ways to play. They have to learn other characters and expand their own knowledge of the game. Suddenly Teemo becomes a serious pro pick(Again, theoretically.) And then people have to find out what counters teemo that isn't one of the 'strong meta, popular picks.'

It'll increase diversity, whether you believe it or not. That's just a fact. Suddenly people can't depend on what's in meta. Suddenly pros can't depend on the characters they personally are best at and have to expand their portfolio of champions that they play.

zkylon said:
"the majority of players would prefer free content instead" feels like such a weird argument to make about this

ofc you'd prefer free shit over refund tokens, but being able refund stuff you bought and dislike is like a basic store functionality that every game should have

like, i bought captain mf because the splash was great but then i played her and saw the skin in-game looks super goofy thanks to her terrible animations and should be able to refund it

riot is more than capable of finding a solution that prevents abuse. just copy the steam thing, if you use the skin for more than two hours or two weeks pass, then you can't refund it anymore, and if you refund too many things then you're shit out of luck. they can tune it for league and make it two games or something, idk

just feels like a really shitty patronizing excuse

refunds don't cost riot anything, they don't give you your money back
Click to expand...

And yeah, that is a patronizing excuse. "We lose so much on free content each year so no refunds for you" is such a stupid excuse. Like fuck off with that. Some crappy icons each year are nothing.
 
S

Sr Kitsune

Member
zkylon said:
refunds don't cost riot anything, they don't give you your money back
Click to expand...

I do agree they should do something like Steam and allow you to refund something between a time-window or playtime.

But refunds do cost money even if there is no way to get your cash back. Opportunity cost and shit.

Then again if you knew that you could implement a refund system that can't be abused then you could say that they're making money out of compulsive buyers. Or something.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Sr Kitsune said:
I do agree they should do something like Steam and allow you to refund something between a time-window or playtime.

But refunds do cost money even if there is no way to get your cash back. Opportunity cost and shit.

Then again if you knew that you could implement a refund system that can't be abused then you could say that they're making money out of compulsive buyers. Or something.
Click to expand...

What opportunity cost

If you refund something on League(Atleast how it was), they just gave you RP back. The money you put in isn't leaving their ecosystem. They keep your money through and through.

Like Zky said, put a limit on when you can refund-IE 3 games played with skin -or- 2 weeks or whatever.
 
2

23qwerty

Member
Of course it costs them money? That RP refunded can be used to buy something instead of having to buy more RP. Not that that's a bad thing, mind.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
23qwerty said:
Of course it costs them money? That RP refunded can be used to buy something instead of having to buy more RP. Not that that's a bad thing, mind.
Click to expand...

Thats why you put the limits on it.

If someone buys a skin, plays one game, doesn't like it, they should atleast be able to refund it. If you put a time limit on when they can do it, they can't wait till a new skin is released and then refund it.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
BreezyLimbo said:
Let's say theoretically, all the 'meta' picks were banned. (And for this example, let's say this is all the meta picks, not just 10)

What happens? People have to find new ways to play. They have to learn other characters and expand their own knowledge of the game. Suddenly Teemo becomes a serious pro pick(Again, theoretically.) And then people have to find out what counters teemo that isn't one of the 'strong meta, popular picks.'

It'll increase diversity, whether you believe it or not. That's just a fact. Suddenly people can't depend on what's in meta. Suddenly pros can't depend on the characters they personally are best at and have to expand their portfolio of champions that they play.
Click to expand...
yeah i'm saying it won't happen, just that i'm not sure if it'll usher a new era of unprescedented strategy and diversity

i'd say "i'd love to be wrong" but i don't even think it won't be a positive change. i think it most definitely will be good, i'm just not super confident of HOW good it'll be

BreezyLimbo said:
And yeah, that is a patronizing excuse. "We lose so much on free content each year so no refunds for you" is such a stupid excuse. Like fuck off with that. Some crappy icons each year are nothing.
Click to expand...
well, like, league as a game is free and that's a hell of a game to give out for free, specially with how much love rito constantly gives to it with patches and upgrades and reworks and shit

there's no doubt that as a value proposition league is pretty much without flaw. something like overwatch costs $40 and still asks money for cosmetics, so thinking of league as a free game with all the quality content that's in it is pretty amazing

the thing is, nothing of this has anything to do with refunds

it's like asking a player "what do you prefer, a new champion or refunds?"

both things are great, let's have both ok?

Sr Kitsune said:
I do agree they should do something like Steam and allow you to refund something between a time-window or playtime.

But refunds do cost money even if there is no way to get your cash back. Opportunity cost and shit.

Then again if you knew that you could implement a refund system that can't be abused then you could say that they're making money out of compulsive buyers. Or something.
Click to expand...
the way i see it is:
- they already have your money, so they're most definitely not losing anything
- there's no model viewer or in-game videos of how a skin looks so you can get screwed by a skin being different/not as cool as the splash
- steam has a pretty good solution that works pretty great for everyone, and in league's case it'd be much better since there's no third party involved
- free things have nothing to do with refunds and honestly it just made wizardcrab or whoever wrote that article look very foolish
- it's basic consumer rights

"opportunity costs" or whatever is not a strong argument for them, riot does a lot of great forward thinking stuff with like regards to like privacy and shit (well, except 2fA but that's coming someday), it's very unlike them to do something so anti-player like not having refunds

23qwerty said:
Of course it costs them money? That RP refunded can be used to buy something instead of having to buy more RP. Not that that's a bad thing, mind.
Click to expand...
but you lose the skin you refunded so it's the same for riot? and you already gave them money so what changed?

i don't get your point

besides, there are restrictions so i can't refund that morgana skin i bought 2 years ago to buy elementalist lux
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
zkylon said:
but you lose the skin you refunded so it's the same for riot? and you already gave them money so what changed?

i don't get your point

besides, there are restrictions so i can't refund that morgana skin i bought 2 years ago to buy elementalist lux
Click to expand...

Right. Like, the point of buying a skin, is to use that skin. Refunding it means you can't use it.

I'm sure you'll have edge cases where a person puts 20 bucks in the game, and just refunds skins after each game, buys a new one, repeats. But that's easy to track to see who's abusing that kind of system.

You could probably even put a hard lock of how many refunds you can do this way, IE 5 a month. That way it can't be exploited, and it gives people leeway on skins they might not like in game.
 
2

23qwerty

Member
Someone buys a skin and refunds it because they don't like it: they have that RP back and can spend it on a new skin.

Someone buys a skin and doesn't like it but can't refund it but also want another skin: they buy more RP.

Not saying there shouldn't be refunds, just saying refunds do objectively lose Riot money.
Of course there's an argument to be made that having refunds available might make people more likely to buy a skin/champ.


I do find it hard to believe there would be enough money transferred because of refunds being available or not to outdo any goodwill generated by having refunds available though.
 
B

Black-Wind

Member
killatopak said:
brand or zyra
Click to expand...

Got both. Zyra mid I have never been able to make work. IDK, I just don't know how to get her DMG out to hit the champs.

Brand is like Vel imo and I'm kinda tried of him.

Might try the earth bender again, rarely see her.

zkylon said:
ori is awesome but very particular and skill reliant so maybe not the exact mid you want if you're not gonna main that role

idk
Click to expand...

I'm looking for a champ who can give the team CC and help in unique ways for mid play. I use to main mid (RIP Diana and Sion Mid Days. Well, Diana ... just played a mid game as Sion purely cause he's my Annie counter pick) and I find her interesting in that I NEVER know how she does so much dmg but the rare times I see one she's putting in work.

As some one who basically became an Illaoi OTP for some time I'm interested in finding other champs that work in unique ways. Not gonna know how I like a champ til I put in a few games. Illaoi takes some unique skills to understand and work so I was thinking maybe Ori could be something to try to as she seems so different to other champs.

Right now it's between her, Lulu and Karma as solo lane mages.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
23qwerty said:
Someone buys a skin and refunds it because they don't like it: they have that RP back and can spend it on a new skin.

Someone buys a skin and doesn't like it but can't refund it but also want another skin: they buy more RP.

Not saying there shouldn't be refunds, just saying refunds do objectively lose Riot money.
Of course there's an argument to be made that having refunds available might make people more likely to buy a skin/champ.

I do find it hard to believe there would be enough money transferred because of refunds being available or not to outdo any goodwill generated by having refunds available though.
Click to expand...
oh yeah, i guess, but that's a really ugly way of seeing your business, basically profiting at the expense of taking away basic rights from your players

and again, i very much doubt the money they would lose would be meaningful if the proper restrictions were in place

i mean, i don't think valve lost significant money when they implemented refunds, and steam is full of shit games that you would actually want to refund, while league skins are amazingly good and for most people it'd be like a one time a year thing

i mostly hate the argument that since they added loot we can't have refunds since i also think loot is probably really low cost for riot since you have like a 1/600 chance of getting something you actually want, considering how many skins and ward skins and icon and champions are in those chests

like when riot gives me my fourth "free fiddlesticks skin", they're not losing the actual $10 that skin is worth, they're not losing anything cos i would never buy this anyways

so yeah, i just really disliked that whole answer, felt like bullshit excuses to not fully support a system that's actually already implemented and would make their game more fair and honest and all that nice things

seriously those skins are so fucking good, most people aren't gonna refund shit

Black-Wind said:
I'm looking for a champ who can give the team CC and help in unique ways for mid play. I use to main mid (RIP Diana and Sion Mid Days. Well, Diana ... just played a mid game as Sion purely cause he's my Annie counter pick) and I find her interesting in that I NEVER know how she does so much dmg but the rare times I see one she's putting in work.

As some one who basically became an Illaoi OTP for some time I'm interested in finding other champs that work in unique ways. Not gonna know how I like a champ til I put in a few games. Illaoi takes some unique skills to understand and work so I was thinking maybe Ori could be something to try to as she seems so different to other champs.

Right now it's between her, Lulu and Karma as solo lane mages.
Click to expand...
just play leblanc, she's broken lol
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
23qwerty said:
Someone buys a skin and refunds it because they don't like it: they have that RP back and can spend it on a new skin.

Someone buys a skin and doesn't like it but can't refund it but also want another skin: they buy more RP.

Not saying there shouldn't be refunds, just saying refunds do objectively lose Riot money.
Of course there's an argument to be made that having refunds available might make people more likely to buy a skin/champ.


I do find it hard to believe there would be enough money transferred because of refunds being available or not to outdo any goodwill generated by having refunds available though.
Click to expand...

Refunds are a standard though. Like...Steam does it, and that affects developers because it refunds money all the way to your bank account. And I haven't heard any developers, indie or otherwise, kick a fuss because of refunds.(Yes in the beginning you had some snowflakes going 'but muh art project got refunded', but the point is that there isn't this mass refund scheme that affects devs) And Riot can definitely make it more restrictive than Steam, but the point is that refunds should be something that is standard.
 
K

Kenai

Member
Black-Wind said:
As some one who basically became an Illaoi OTP for some time I'm interested in finding other champs that work in unique ways. Not gonna know how I like a champ til I put in a few games. Illaoi takes some unique skills to understand and work so I was thinking maybe Ori could be something to try to as she seems so different to other champs.

Right now it's between her, Lulu and Karma as solo lane mages.
Click to expand...

I like Zyra and Karma both quite a bit, were two of my main helps getting into Gold last season.

Zyra does so much damage because of her plants giving tons of extra hits and often providing on hit effects from things like FQC and Liandy's relatively risk free. Even when the enemy is actively killing your passive seeds it is often putting them into an unfavorable position for follow up. She can easily 1 v 2 if people try to dive her and she has seeds out, and her seeds privide limited vision as additional gank insurance.

Her main problem lis like most mages she's likely to die if someone actually gets to her (assasins) and she can often push a lane while trying to harrass which can sabotage farm.

Karma is just awesome. She's a solid 1 v 1 champ and provides a lot of poke early game and a lot of utility late game. Few champs in the game can handle her constant Q poke + dueling potential in the laning phase and if they aren't careful she can either kill them outright or roam. Later on in the game she will be providing a substantial amount of shielding to choice targets initiating or rooting threats that don't back off.

Her main issue is her damage falls off a cliff when the enemy team's frontline has their MR items. You don't really pick her for her dmg though.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
matilda-vin-kindered.jpg


good stuff

art teams at riot are so good
 
killatopak

killatopak

Gold Member
I'm just gonna sit back and play some league.

I want to unwind after that horrible switch presentation.

I got hyped the fuck out for nothing.
 
L

Leezard

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Refunds are a standard though. Like...Steam does it, and that affects developers because it refunds money all the way to your bank account. And I haven't heard any developers, indie or otherwise, kick a fuss because of refunds.(Yes in the beginning you had some snowflakes going 'but muh art project got refunded', but the point is that there isn't this mass refund scheme that affects devs) And Riot can definitely make it more restrictive than Steam, but the point is that refunds should be something that is standard.
Click to expand...

Can you really make your refunded Steam money leave the Steam wallet and into your bank account? In an official way of course. The few Steam refunds I've made have simply put the money in my Steam wallet so I have to buy something from Steam in the future with those dollars.

This is offtopic of course, I don't intend to partake in the league refund discussion.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Leezard said:
Can you really make your refunded Steam money leave the Steam wallet and into your bank account? In an official way of course. The few Steam refunds I've made have simply put the money in my Steam wallet so I have to buy something from Steam in the future with those dollars.

This is offtopic of course, I don't intend to partake in the league refund discussion.
Click to expand...

Both times Ive refunded something on steam they credited it back to my account instead of the steam wallet. When refunding something I think you have to check a box?
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
killatopak said:
I'm just gonna sit back and play some league.

I want to unwind after that horrible switch presentation.

I got hyped the fuck out for nothing.
Click to expand...
i thought it looked ok, mario being like a weirdo mario is missing sequel is kind of hilarious but you could jump on your hat so that's cool

i really liked the look of that squenix rpg, i hope that makes it out to pc at least

also pricing is whatever to me cos consoles in my country cost a fortune anyways

BreezyLimbo said:
Both times Ive refunded something on steam they credited it back to my account instead of the steam wallet. When refunding something I think you have to check a box?
Click to expand...
oh yeah, i forgot about that

that's kind of awesome, really
 
J

jerd

Member
killatopak said:
I'm just gonna sit back and play some league.

I want to unwind after that horrible switch presentation.

I got hyped the fuck out for nothing.
Click to expand...

Funny thing is I feel like people would be hyped af if it were being pitched as a handheld that could be played on your TV. Instead we have people comparing it to other consoles that it was never gonna compete against. Idk Mario and Zelda looked great. I might wait to see if we get Metroid at E3. Definitely no reason to get it at launch for me but I like new shiny things and Zelda will probably run better on it so who knows
 
killatopak

killatopak

Gold Member
The most I'm willing to wait before plunging in is E3.

If they still can't get me interested then I'll just wait for a price drop or until Xenoblade 2 gets released.

Until then, I'm not buying as just the accessories and the SD card needed is piling up the costs.
 
E

Edwardo

Member
Zelda looks nice. Other than that I didn't rly care for any of it.

I played two games last night. Forgot to do my masteries both times..
 
V

Vincent Alexander

Member
I've been practicing more and more with Illaoi, and damn is she fun. I absolutely demolished a Darius last night in Normals. My fear though is that higher-level players are going to be smart enough to never rumble with me once I ult. I got a pretty easy quad kill last night because Eve, Jinx, Bard, and Darius refused to leave my tentacle party.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
btw does anyone remember the site that shows the updated stats quicker than champion.gg?

i want to see how much syndra's and ryze's winrate tanked, if anything

Twookie said:
yeah you get an option box to either get the money on steam or directly to your card

pretty neat-o
Click to expand...
it's how it should be, but even just the rp option riot gives you would be a great improvement

heck even if they did one refund a year or whatever it'd be a great improvement
 
L

Leezard

Member
zkylon said:
btw does anyone remember the site that shows the updated stats quicker than champion.gg?

i want to see how much syndra's and ryze's winrate tanked, if anything


it's how it should be, but even just the rp option riot gives you would be a great improvement

heck even if they did one refund a year or whatever it'd be a great improvement
Click to expand...

lolalytics.com
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
no 7.1 data on syndra yet it seems

i played with one the other day and she was pretty good but seemed to be having trouble at killing people

honestly i think she got a pretty fair deal for what she lost, both nerfs are good

thinking about it some more, my disliking of the w changes is less about these changes and more about the rework being plain bad
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
Leezard said:
lolalytics.com
Click to expand...

Yep, but you have to be careful with this one too. Lolalytics using a rolling average of the past few weeks but does show daily win rates in the graphs. You can see how this can affects their win precentages by using Kennen as an example. Kennen's stated top win rate is 48.93%, but it's clear that his nerfs have had a significant impact on his top lane win rates going by the downward trend starting on 11-Jan. Provided you use the graphs lolalytics.com will give you day-1 information on patch changes.

champion.gg and op.gg reset after every patch, but even they have different methods of presenting the data. Champion.gg will update after 5-6 days and will heavily suppress data after that period. If, for instance, a champion suddenly gets into permaban territory a week after the patch, champion.gg won't reflect that because it's largely ignoring that newer data. op.gg updates faster, 2-3 days after a patch, but it'll change its numbers as the patch goes along. Because of this you frequenly have outliers in their number (e.g. Kindred jungle may have the 3rd highest win rate on the day op.gg updates, then completely disappear two days later from the top 5).
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
here1%2B%25282%2529.jpg


sewn chaos skin is really good, i like the annie in the background a lot. wish they had like added ori to it so her skin gets a decent splash

also apparently there was a lulu q ap ratio increase and now they've reverted it

i just want to lane with lulu, she needs to have some sort of waveclear...
 
E

Edwardo

Member
zkylon said:
here1%2B%25282%2529.jpg


sewn chaos skin is really good, i like the annie in the background a lot. wish they had like added ori to it so her skin gets a decent splash

also apparently there was a lulu q ap ratio increase and now they've reverted it

i just want to lane with lulu, she needs to have some sort of waveclear...
Click to expand...

Does her Q suck now?
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
Edwardo said:
Does her Q suck now?
Click to expand...
yup, it deals less dmg to targets past the first one (think ori ball, but MUCH worse), so she basically has like zero waveclear and zero poke

i was kind of into the idea of OK BUT SHE GETS A TOOON OF UTILITY TO COMPENSATE but that never actually happened and whelp, here we are

it's weird cos she got nerfed at a time where she wasn't even played

PhillipCostigan said:
Practice Tool is live on PBE!
Click to expand...
cool

i hope it'll just be one cycle before live

right in time for azir buffs that make me practice shurima shuffling some more
 
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