Unless you are a jungler you're not going to experience 9 bans for your role.
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League of Legends |OT12| No more Lyte, just darkness.
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
Unless you are a jungler you're not going to experience 9 bans for your role.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah, and if they're staggered bans, that means not everything can be banned at once. Removing trading means that in teamplay, you have to think about your picks and whether or not you'll get an opportunity to pick that OP champion before it gets banned. Draft style of banning means that a teams composition can be adjusted throughout the picks, as in you see what is banned and what isn't, you see what the teams are picking, and then you can ban to hurt the opposing teams wanted comp or vice versa. IE if you see an enemy pick Twisted Fate and Nocturne for example(FOR EXAMPLE), they want to do long range engage, and might pick Shen to buffer that, so you ban out Shen.
It'd help the game more than it'd hurt. Trading, if anything, hurts the game.
Stone Ocean
Member
ADC or support could be easily shut down as well. 10 bans will only work if we get staggered draft alongside it.
Oh how you forget the few months during random patches when you literally expend all bans on one lane
And yes I've mostly shifted to the jungle role lately so there is that
Stone Ocean
Member
That's not even considering what kind of impact this could have in competitive. Expecting every player to have the champ pool of Bjergsen at any given patch is bananas, with the current draft the enemy team could just go "you know what, X isn't gonna play League of Legends today"
It's just not gonna happen in solo queue. People don't ban Janna even when she's statistically the best ban. People hate banning supports. People love banning junglers though. Junglers, zed and lb.
It happens rarely, but in the long run in solo/dynamic you're going to see bans like they happen now; junglers and a few scattered bans. Unless something drastical happens.
Competitive is another beast for sure, it could happen. There would hopefully be some sort of snake draft. I'm expecting teams to be able to work around it.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah, it would be a huge mistake to increase the number of bans without staggering it. Then shit like "Ban the 5 most popular ADCs because our ADC can urgot really good" will happen.
There's just no strategy in putting all the bans upfront. It's stupid. Right now, the pick phase of the game is braindead.
As for worrying about player pools and what they know how to play, staggering bans helps with that too. If your first pick is Ashe for example, you're not going to continue banning ADCs unless you fear that Quinn top or Lucian mid.
Dreams-Visions
Member
you're right. I forgot you have to buy champs in this game and as such, pool width may become a big problem for newer players.
that said, 10 bans has been the standard in Dota 2 since its inception. It's part of the reason we got to see 105 of 109 champs picked during The International. If people can't handle being proficient in 3 or 4 champs at the positions the queue up for, then need to get good. Enough with this "I can only play 2 champs" bullshit.
3 cheers for champion diversity.
For sure. Dota style snake draft would be a great addition.
Stone Ocean
Member
Simply adding another game's features in League won't magically fix diversity. It's not really that simple.
There are indeed more stuff behind the lack of diversity. The draft system could help, though.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Stone Ocean
Member
Maybe, but League has had a lot of variety even without it. Last Worlds we had 74 champions picked, most that weren't picked were in bad need of reworks or just shite.
Stone Ocean
Member
Ekko and Lucian are pretty braindead. The others will just make you look like a clown.
Dreams-Visions
Member
all 3 of them do, but I'd say Ekko offers the largest margin for error.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That sure is diverse when DotA averages over 100 picked champions for their final championships >_>; Last worlds it would've been what, 126 champions out for League? And only 74 picked, which is about 60% diversity?
Drafting doesn't just help variety, but it's huge for building up a team comp/countering the opponents during a pick phase. Right now the pickphase is braindead. You ban out the strongest players picks, then just build around a certain comp without really worrying what the enemy team is picking. In this case, you usually want to stack your side with champions that have heavy CC. It's why it irritated me that TL picked the same damn team last weekend because there's no originality in it and showed how countering a teamcomp was beneficial for CLG, whilst TL had this mentality of 'We're just going to pick the same team without thinking about team compositions'. That's just the state of the game right now.
And if anything, the fact that so many champions do need a 'rework' speaks to Riots evolving philosophy, which is both good and bad. Good because it keeps the game and new character designs fresh, bad because it's those designs that invalidate older champions that were created with a certain mindset that was probably counter to the current philosophy.
Stone Ocean
Member
I'm 100% down with staggered draft, with or without more bans, that shit is hype.
As for the rework part, it's not really a matter of Riot changing philosophies as much as it is coming up with one. Champs that need reworks are so because Riot didn't really know what the fuck they were doing, like Quinn being an ADC without any tool to support that playstyle or whatever the fuck old Sion was meant to be.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah, I can agree with that. They should also make Flash just a standard spell since...everyone takes it >_>; But that's an argument for another day
Orochinagis
Member
Rip Top and Supports (and zed)
i'm worried 10 bans will make it really difficult to pick certain champions
i get the impression i'll never be able to play leblanc if this goes through
knock em dead
can't believe it's almost time for preseason again lol
this year went by so damn quick it's silly
i loved watching ti6, doto is fun and everything, but that pick and ban phase takes fucking forever, omfg that shit was the worst
i get the impression i'll never be able to play leblanc if this goes through
good luck
knock em dead
interesting stuff
can't believe it's almost time for preseason again lol
this year went by so damn quick it's silly
just make it not take like 7 zillion years
i loved watching ti6, doto is fun and everything, but that pick and ban phase takes fucking forever, omfg that shit was the worst
leblanc is my favorite, she's hard to play but she's awesome at making ppl look like a full chasing her
doesn't need to be 9 bans for ur role, but 5 is gonna hurtful and that's gonna happen a lot
i'm kind of lucky mid is like impossible to ban out but still
lotion speaking truths
also it's kind of interesting that one of the reasons people talk about higher champ diversity at worlds is because morde and gp were banned like every game, so essentially there were even less bans
it's a different game, pick diversity is a fun stat to see big numbers of but 74 champions in the last worlds felt like A LOT and there were surprise picks and there were secret counterpicks and shit, it was cool
that's not to say champ diversity isn't an issue in league, cos it is, and i personally think it's because of deeper issues than just bans (mostly that league, complex and wonderful as at is, still doesn't have enough moving parts to prevent it from being "figured out"), but i don't think like some random liquid fucking up drafts again means much lol
you're being a bit silly here
new champions invalidate old champions because old champions are shit, not (always) because new champions are too good. yeah azir was dumb, but generally new champions have a lot of moving parts and are you know interesting cos interesting is better than not interesting. not cos old champions adhered to a different philosophy or whatever, old champions were just bad.
new fiora was a headache, but old fiora was worse
and riot has a really hands-on approach to balance that makes it so that if an old champion is doing kind of bad but it's still kind of ok they'll give em a hand if they need it
SenorArdilla
Member
Leblanc should get a global laugh if you kill her clone instead of her.
killatopak
Gold Member
10 bans
I'm actually liking the sound of next season if they don't fuck it up somehow.
Now give me my lightning mid lane champ.
pls
Kennen?
Literally one of the most boring kits in the game imo, and even though I hate him, I'd hate him even more if he didn't use lightning.
finally made it back to platinum. played mostly support because waiting in queue sucks. started in silver 3 this season and played adc/ jungle until i hit gold. waiting in q is the worst, so i said fuck it ill just play support and see if i can win games. a lot easier to climb this season imo, free win if you failed your promo helps a lot and lots of boosted players with dynamic queue this season.
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[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/80COYyI.pngimgur.com/a/SMc2b[/IMG]BreezyLimbo
Banned
It's still an issue though. 74 champions picked across what was it...70ish games? isn't alot. At all. That speaks to the staleness of the meta more than anything. TL picking the same team again just because it worked spoke of a few things, mainly that they felt they needed to draft the same team without considering the opposing teams picks(Again, could be rectified with the pick/bans being mixed together), and that there weren't enough options for them to consider something else.
Annie, more or less, is the same as she was back during the first season. Differences being she needs 1 less spellcast for a stun, and Tibbers has gotten buffed over time. But she's still a potent pick in the right hands. If we're going by stats, last year Lulu was picked/banned 94% of all the games, and she's still relatively the same as she was 4 years ago(But they nerfed her hard this year, no?). Even Morgana is the same that she was on release, and she's still a high pick.
It's not that the old champions were shit, no. It's that newer champions tend to have overloaded kits compared to before.
Old champions were translated from DotA. IE Annie inherited Warlocks Ult, Ashe was supposed to be the Drow replacement(Right down to toggable slow arrows), but they were simple in contrast.
League was originally a simpler version of DotA. Simple doesn't necessarily mean 'shit'. The philosophy skewed towards that, simple champions, simple gameplay. But over time, the games grown up, and it's gotten more and more complex compared to the original iteration. Not a bad thing, mind you, but what this means, and what it's meant, is that Riot has had to go back and done passes on older champions. It's why picks in competitive tend to skew towards newer champions, IE Morderkaiser and Gangplank dominated the Pick/Ban rate last year at worlds.
Sometimes reworks help out a champion, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they'll nail a kit that it'll last throughout the years of balance(Elise) or sometimes they won't(Heimerdinger).
Either way, getting an equilibrium for the variety should be a goal.
Focus fire. If that rule wasn't there then minions would generally pick targets by proximity. End result is that it would take longer for minion waves to wipe each other, which in turn makes it take longer for towers to go down. In addition, last hitting would be harder because situations when there are 2+ low health minions would be more frequent.
Stone Ocean
Member
Morgana had her kit retooled twice and Annie changed a lot with the new Tibbers. The reason they are still relevant is because they keep getting updated, there's not a single champion from the early days that has the same kit as they had back then besides maybe WW but he's on the chopping block.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Doesn't that already happen though because the ranged minions always target a melee minion? It seems like it's usually only the Cannon minion that switches targets most of the time.
Other than removing her HP regen from her passive and changing numbers, her kit more or less has been the same. Just has had alot of number changes~
Wolf Akela
Member
The last major Morgana change I remember was removing E's ability to dispel debuffs. That was probably in S1 or even before that.
Old kits that stayed largely the same? Fiddlesticks, Nunu, Lee Sin, Teemo, Ashe, MF. Nunu will most likely get a rework though.
Old kits that stayed largely the same? Fiddlesticks, Nunu, Lee Sin, Teemo, Ashe, MF. Nunu will most likely get a rework though.
idk, liquid is a team generally known for bad drafts, and kind of being a bad team overall. it's just one series, teams generally adapt over games and aren't stupid, that's not a symptom of the whole game
and 74 out of 120 is not ideal but also like those remaining 45 or so aren't in the greatest of states
like jerd says champions like warwick are in no state of being picked
eh, i'd say old champions were/are pretty shitty. that's what you get for releasing like 3 champions every month, sometimes you get ori, sometimes you get aatrox (yea i know aatrox was way past the multiple champions every month age but that's the shittiest champion i could think of atm lol)
like i get what you mean and for sure riot has been making newer champions a lot more complicated but honestly i think old champions just kind of sucked
like i'm just gonna list u a couple champions and honestly you tell me if they belong in competitive:
i might be mistaken about some of these, but give or take a few, these champions are generally really bad or have pretty big issues about them that make it that if they're ever strong they're really stupid strong and will get nerfed. imo here it's not as much of a problem of "champion diversity" as of like, hey, these champions are kind of garbage lol
so having said that, if like 30 champions out of 125 are bad, you have like 74/100, that's not so bad
problem is that out of those 74, a lot of those are 1 game or 2 at most, some of them are like pocket picks or troll picks or whatever, etc.
and the real culprit of this is the top tier rotation of like 15~ champions that is present in like every game
if you raised the number of bans you'd see more rotation from those 74, but you'll never reach the 30 crappy ones
but also you'd see less champions since like the top 10 out of the top 15 will be generally permabanned, so what did we really gain
so yeah i think the rito idea of like keep reworking old champions to be competitive will pay off in the end way more than anything else, as well as some deeper system changes that imo are pretty necessary
SenorArdilla
Member
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episode 2 of live / play isn't as good of a story as episode 1 (tho chinese photographer story was pretty cool), but really good photography as always
lately i've been kind of thinking about saving money for a trip to korea next time worlds is played there
korea just looks amazing
(also the ad for the skt skins with that rocking nikki taylor song just worked so hard on me... pity i play faker's b side champions ;_
lately i've been kind of thinking about saving money for a trip to korea next time worlds is played there
korea just looks amazing
(also the ad for the skt skins with that rocking nikki taylor song just worked so hard on me... pity i play faker's b side champions ;_
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Some of those are situational picks, some of them are lacking in things other champions don't have. But they don't fit in the meta because this meta is so strangling in what goes or doesn't go right now.
It's funny you list Morde, because Morde had a 100% ban/pick rate last championship. And I think that they should go the way of Morde-That is, they should go 'out there' when it comes to champions. Morde as he was, before they nerfed him(Post rework), was a niche pick with a lot of power.
(I'm pretty sure Olaf/Noc/Panth still see regular play in competitive too)
And as for your concerns about increasing bans, that's why Riot would HAVE to do a staggered ban phase. As in, you don't ban all at once. This is twofold-It lets teams see what the first bans are, and then think about what type of comp they'll work on depending on the first picks/bans.
Like...a Draft pick/ban style is good. Yeah, it takes a bit longer, but it's really no different from how long a lobby takes now(Except with 2 additional bans).
Basically-It'd be impossible to ban all 10 'op' picks at once, it lets a team see what kind of comp the enemy team is trying to do and lets them react in the pick phase to that by directly banning something that might aid them,
Basically, it's not only about increasing the variety in picks because it's easier to counter certain comps by banning out characters that might be beneficial to them during the pick phase, but if trading is removed, then it isn't a rush for '1ST PICK ME YASUO PLZ'.
I dunno. tl:dr-If they add 2 more bans to each side, then I disagree with that decision IF they don't stagger picks/bans. If they add 2 more bans to each side AND stagger picks/bans, then I'm all for it because it's more positive than not.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Should of just used google translate.Communication successful.
a lot of champions get played in competitive that shouldn't. remember when warwick was a top laner?
i probably didn't explain that right but that's the point of that list, those those are bad champions that, in fact, when they're played in competitive, they're usually nerfed right away cos how bad they are (happened with jax, olaf, morde, yi, aatrox, etc.)
might've missed a couple of em but that's kind of it, reason why it's 74 out of 120 is that the remaining champions are just bad and need big changes
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now back at the 20/74, two things
removing trading is def not gonna happen, it'd be a super sucky thing for regular play, as well as a nonfactor for competitive. you'd have a bunch of top reginald situations at best, people just taking other people's roles in ranked because they're first pick and they get to pick irelia or the fotm op so now they're going top. i also just have no idea why you think that'll lead to higher champ diversity, that sounds really strange to me
for staggered bans, maybe, but i don't think league's pick and ban phase works exactly like doto's, tho honestly i don't know much about doto's either. like i always felt like doto's p&b is sort of like a pretty big strategy layer of trying to figure out what the other team's gonna do, see how you can sabotage it, not give away your strategy, etc. i feel that comes from doto having like looser lane assignments and just being a generally more strategic, less formulaic game
league is kind of pretty samey, both teams are gonna fight for ops and it's gonna be sort of a poker game of calling each other's bluffs but in the end both teams are gonna end up with something pretty similar. most of the times at least. i feel like league isn't so much decided on champ select in terms of strategy as much as you can just "lose" champ select by being dumb and picking random shit like lissandra pantheon on that envy-c9 game.
would staggered bans add that strategy layer to league? personally i don't think so, it might help a bit, but i don't think it'll make that much of a difference, not on its own
if anything i've generally felt pick and bans to be a part of league that is rarely worth the time investment. there's been some cool stuff but it's grown to be something i never watch in vods and it just feels it's there to mostly get rid of the ops while rito works on balance
i don't necessarily think that's too bad, not every aspect of the game has to have a huge strategy layer and i don't think there are 10 broken champions needed to be permabanned at any given time, so i'm not really sure about making these changes, specially if it's gonna be just pick and ban that gets changed
if you tell me there's half a dozen big game system changes that will make more strategies viable then i'm all for it, but only this, i'm not super into it
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btw can't wait
they keep adding stuff to this skin too, she now plays a little chiptune theme on her /dance and she has like pixely particles flying out of her tails and they gave her her whiskers back
the back is still stupid as evidenced by this comic
but can't say no to that skin
i probably didn't explain that right but that's the point of that list, those those are bad champions that, in fact, when they're played in competitive, they're usually nerfed right away cos how bad they are (happened with jax, olaf, morde, yi, aatrox, etc.)
might've missed a couple of em but that's kind of it, reason why it's 74 out of 120 is that the remaining champions are just bad and need big changes
---
now back at the 20/74, two things
removing trading is def not gonna happen, it'd be a super sucky thing for regular play, as well as a nonfactor for competitive. you'd have a bunch of top reginald situations at best, people just taking other people's roles in ranked because they're first pick and they get to pick irelia or the fotm op so now they're going top. i also just have no idea why you think that'll lead to higher champ diversity, that sounds really strange to me
for staggered bans, maybe, but i don't think league's pick and ban phase works exactly like doto's, tho honestly i don't know much about doto's either. like i always felt like doto's p&b is sort of like a pretty big strategy layer of trying to figure out what the other team's gonna do, see how you can sabotage it, not give away your strategy, etc. i feel that comes from doto having like looser lane assignments and just being a generally more strategic, less formulaic game
league is kind of pretty samey, both teams are gonna fight for ops and it's gonna be sort of a poker game of calling each other's bluffs but in the end both teams are gonna end up with something pretty similar. most of the times at least. i feel like league isn't so much decided on champ select in terms of strategy as much as you can just "lose" champ select by being dumb and picking random shit like lissandra pantheon on that envy-c9 game.
would staggered bans add that strategy layer to league? personally i don't think so, it might help a bit, but i don't think it'll make that much of a difference, not on its own
if anything i've generally felt pick and bans to be a part of league that is rarely worth the time investment. there's been some cool stuff but it's grown to be something i never watch in vods and it just feels it's there to mostly get rid of the ops while rito works on balance
i don't necessarily think that's too bad, not every aspect of the game has to have a huge strategy layer and i don't think there are 10 broken champions needed to be permabanned at any given time, so i'm not really sure about making these changes, specially if it's gonna be just pick and ban that gets changed
if you tell me there's half a dozen big game system changes that will make more strategies viable then i'm all for it, but only this, i'm not super into it
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btw can't wait
they keep adding stuff to this skin too, she now plays a little chiptune theme on her /dance and she has like pixely particles flying out of her tails and they gave her her whiskers back
the back is still stupid as evidenced by this comic
but can't say no to that skin
SenorArdilla
Member
Reddit has Ezrael x Shyvana fan fiction.