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- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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XeroSauce
Member
Exactly, right?
I know this was a page ago and old news but yeah. Diana mid is strong. She abuses the right matchups hard. Just have to be careful about ganks.
I've found that movespeed quints with movespeed masteries is the best course of action with her. The 15 extra AP just doesn't compare with the increased escape and close potential of the high movespeed.
edit: My issue so far is just transitioning into the lategame. It's soooo tempting to ult right into a group of enemies and really she needs to be played like any other assassin. Sit back and wait for the opportunity. Her poke with her Q is incredibly strong though. Need to capitalize on that. I also get focused like crazy. Zhyona's is being built earlier and earlier for me. Nothing like starting with 5+ kills to get the enemies to want to burn you down.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Ahri's taunt on Aram is one of the most unfair things ever.... I love it.
I see a pretty common start of Kage's and stuff like Zhonya's/Abyssal early. Makes the most amount of sense due to how all-in she is for kills. Zhonya's/DFG for her early core items to let her assassin to her best and then the rest is filled in as needed.
SouthernDragon
Member
Diana's Q seems so strong, too...
Wolf Akela
Member
Could use dropping the Q ratio to 0.7 and a bit lower base damage. :/
I still think her passive is too strong for a passive.
I still think her passive is too strong for a passive.
To be honest I rarely use it in teamfights. Meaning, either the fight breaks off... or I die before it procs.... what.. 2 times if I'm lucky? It keeps her viable as a jungler, even lategame. Think that was it's main purpose.
Her Q is strong, but no stronger than say Ahri's.
She's really strong. But she's an assassin without a proper escape and run into the same problem you do with AD melees if you nerf her too much.
I tried to run the numbers on that a few pages back, and it's not QUITE as huge of a buff as it appears if I'm understanding correctly: 165 + 0.66 AP, now doing 170 + 0.8 AP, but I guess the front-loading of the damage slightly reduces the downsides of increasing your attack speed too high, since as far as I know poison doesn't stack? What's the optimal attack speed on Teemo? I might also have the numbers wrong from PBE.
I really don't know what to think about Katarina. I feel like the nerf to bouncing blades is so huge. The max number of bounces is lower if I understand correctly, there's no chance of it focusing champions if they are smart enough to stand slightly away from minions, and there's no chance of safely harassing with full damage (previously W + Q let you do this). Instead, if you bounce off a minion and DO happen to hit a champion, they will ALWAYS take reduced damage. :/
That combined with the nerf to R and the nerf to the passive just sounds like a triple nerf to me, and I really don't know how the movespeed boost will work out. All that said, I guess I will have to wait and see if I play again some time, and try it in practice. Supposedly the damage is good for some people.
@Katarina - I'm curious to see what scarra and a few of the other APs think of her. Especially with the more AD-centric rune/mastery setups that some of them promoted before her revamp since that gave her a better early game harass ... and fits her new playstyle a lot.
Her passive is nice but, yeah, you either get one off in team fights or you build tanky Attack Speed and aim for multiples (with lower AP) ... and then get hard countered by someone seeing you first build Nashor's/Malady and getting a Frozen Heart and/or Randuin's. Her passive is fairly easy to shut down.
Her W deals some damage but not a lot and her E is no damage either. She's basically Q->R->R->Passive proc for burst. Which isn't bad at all but it's relatively balanced as far as a total kit is concerned. I think I agree with a lot of the pro sentiments that she's good, just not competitively good.
Her Q is pretty much as expected for a skillshot nuke.
Her passive is nice but, yeah, you either get one off in team fights or you build tanky Attack Speed and aim for multiples (with lower AP) ... and then get hard countered by someone seeing you first build Nashor's/Malady and getting a Frozen Heart and/or Randuin's. Her passive is fairly easy to shut down.
Her W deals some damage but not a lot and her E is no damage either. She's basically Q->R->R->Passive proc for burst. Which isn't bad at all but it's relatively balanced as far as a total kit is concerned. I think I agree with a lot of the pro sentiments that she's good, just not competitively good.
Her Q is pretty much as expected for a skillshot nuke.
That was incredible... thanks
Its pretty ridiculous how much MORE skill these guys have than i do. Some of the plays i had to watch like 3-4 times to understand what was even happening... sheesh
Lone_Prodigy
Member
For Kat, at least you can consume a mark with a spell.
Really dislike the Shunpo nerf. Going to miss having her jump everywhere.
We had this one ARAM game with Kat, Janna (me), Orianna, Naut, and Kayle. Orianna ball, Janna shield, and Kayle ult on Kat just wrecked. It was funny because the other team had tons of CC and Blitz, yet they still lost.
Really dislike the Shunpo nerf. Going to miss having her jump everywhere.
We had this one ARAM game with Kat, Janna (me), Orianna, Naut, and Kayle. Orianna ball, Janna shield, and Kayle ult on Kat just wrecked. It was funny because the other team had tons of CC and Blitz, yet they still lost.
I lost a game once where the other team first-picked Kat, we picked like 4-5 CC champions to counter, and still got wrecked. They might have a good combo with her but I'm not even sure, we might have just been bad.
And ouch, I guess I didn't even realize shunpo was nerfed too...that's a quad nerf? Was Kat really so powerful that they had to make so many details worse? :/ They added the damage reduction which is nice instead of requiring W, but if they reduced the damage or increased the cooldown that sucks.
I think the problem with consuming a mark is the following:
1. It does what, 70 damage max, with a super tiny 0.2 AP ratio?
2. What are you going to consume it with, an autoattack? Bam, you're in melee range of a mid-lane nuking champion.
3. What are you going to consume it with, shunpo? Bam, you're in melee range of a mid-lane nuking champion, now you have no escape unless they die!
4. What are you going to consume it with, the ult? Bam, you might just done an extra 150-200 damage. I guess that's nice, but they could have just made the ult scaling more instead of requiring you to hit the mark first. Saving Q is nice so you can use Q to kill as they are just barely escaping the ult range. Depending on how long the mark lasts I guess you could try to Q really early, then ult combo when Q comes back up.
Overall it sounds like they are making farming better, but making it both more difficult to harass champions AND less rewarding if you do manage to kill them (worse cooldown benefit on the ult if I recall correctly, plus no more gold bonus for kills/assists).
And if you want a good farming champion, I wouldn't imagine you would be picking Kat. :/
Again, maybe in practice all this works and Riot are geniuses, but I'm really not liking the numbers.
This was kind of how a lot of high level Kat play worked anyway. At least now you can Q -> E -> W -> disengage as opposed to W -> Q -> E -> disengage. It wasn't just throwing Qs to harass, it was poking with Q and whittling them down with engage/disengages to set up the eventual all-in.
Edit: They did manage to find a way to make her Level 1 even worse. Somehow.
Wolf Akela
Member
They already fixed the glitch where >1.0AS prevented the DoT from ticking. If anything, the increase on the on-hit damage actually makes AS more powerful.
I've probably done my fair share of early level WQE or QWE -> run away, and probably sometimes got instakilled for it due to stuns or ganking junglers. I'd just like not to use E unless I have a good sense for being able to walk away afterwards...and sure, W might help with that now.
And ha at level 1...wasn't the stated reason for this whole remake about how bad Kat's early levels/farm are?
Whoa, nice. I didn't realize that had been changed.
Ya they fixed that and CDR not working currently on shrooms.
Man I love AP teemo in aram so much, this'll be even more fun.
It's usually when they go up to cs so that if they DO try to trade with you, they contend with minion aggro if they pursue. A sort of free hit as they can't actually trade back due to the damage they'd take. Diana plays similarly with her Q->R harass, though she can always try to R away in a trade gone awry.
AP Teemo in Dom is a nightmare. dem shroom dots oh god
Katarina (relaunch) spotlight: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/...ina?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Diprosalic
Banned
lol diana is so broken, i have so much fun with her.
I made the mistake of thinking I had won my lane against a LB yesterday (was ahead on CS and level, same on kills, and she's a natural counter to pretty much every mid champ I play, so I thought I was doing ok) and she bursted me down in one combo lol.
So fucking bursty...
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Lebl is pretty scary if she come with a premade team. After a fail jungle gang in bot, LB can blow all her cd on mid, forcing them to return, and it is a free dragon.
Ya if you play a leblanc you go abyssal asap.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
You can consume a Kat mark with W.
I think Q+W would be okay for farming. She's manaless, so spamming W every 4 seconds should add up, and the small movement speed bonus should help her chase instead of always relying on Shunpo to gap-close.
I think Q+W would be okay for farming. She's manaless, so spamming W every 4 seconds should add up, and the small movement speed bonus should help her chase instead of always relying on Shunpo to gap-close.
Is the W range long enough to last-hit minions without getting nailed by the mid-lane person opposite you? I really need to learn to get my minions to attack other champions, since most of the time I feel like they kinda ignore them (or the other champion clears an entire wave in 1-2 abilities).
They'll generally get ignored unless they're close enough for proximity aggro with no other minions present. Or close enough for proximity aggro and they attack a champion. Top lane teaches you a lot of that just because many low level trades are decided by who takes more minion aggro in trades :x
only when u hit lvl 30 since 99% of the champions cant jungle without runes or masteries.
As of this time yes. It can shift in a game if someone tries to pull something funny, but usually breaks down to that.
Barrel Cannon
Member
....or if your whole pre made tries something funny
. We have done double smite before and it worked wonders for random jungle stealing and invasions. Denying the enemy a leveled jungler is a very satisfying thing .....or if your whole pre made tries something funny
I still want to try all AD range mid with surge tactic again.
I think triple AD mid worked once for me, but it breaks down if your AD ranged stop coordinating and split lanes. You've gotta form Voltron for maximum damage.
XeroSauce
Member
No, play Darius instead and do everything better.
Yeah, I actually survived barely her burst and went back and bought myself a pretty Negatron Cloak. We still lost because our ADC went disconnect.
I think the best thing I can do against my counters on mid (LeBlanc, Fizz) is to just don't bother. Play safe, farm, not waste the jungler's time asking for ganks since those guys just have fantastic escapes, and to make sure not to give them any kills. With some luck, we end up even and if the other lanes do alright I can compensate if I'm behind in CS (got zoned or whatever, LBs love to do that).
Gonna have to agree on that first patch game get him and cait bottom who got way too cocky at the beginning.
A couple of us were posting earlier in the thread about how it seems 3-4 aspects to her are worse now. I've played a LOT of Katarina and the numbers don't sound better to me, but I guess I would be happy if she really is better. Do you mind elaborating on what aspects work better now? Does the W speedboost and damage make a big difference, compensating for the super high shunpo cooldown, for instance?
Basically what I've found:
- Bouncing blades not needing to level up to bounce helps a shitload with early game. Easy Lv1 harass when you would've just been able to use it for last hitting before. Still great for farming late game combined with W.
- The speedboost is amazing for mobility, especially late game. W also provides consistent damage with it's super short CD (even with no cd reduction) so you don't just feel like you're doing nothing while shunpo and ult are down.
- Shunpo does far less damage, but the cd feels fine to me. The damage doesn't matter anymore because your shunpo -> W combo does the same damage as it was before, roughly.
- Ult feels a weaker but the overall kit feels stronger so it doesn't matter. This is better anyways as Kat is no longer a one-trick pony that gets shut down no matter what by CC.
I'm going to keep playing her, and maybe I'll feel different after more matches but so far she feels really great. Although individual moves have nerfed numbers, W really makes up for it.
XeroSauce
Member
TF2 tonight babe. -wink wink-
EDIT: Actually by the looks of it I don't know if I'll be able to patch in time to play anyways.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
I'll be too busy fighting off the mechanized apocalypse while wearing silly hats.
SouthernDragon
Member
Always was a boss.
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