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[kiunchbb]

here's the tldr:

how to account for proper response to your strat/can your strat hold up? how to not base success on confusing the enemy? it is possible to have a comp that fits multiple strats (blaze, push, teamfight, early jungle presence). how to make rex not only play ad? how to make ufo feel wanted?

how to make people go outside their comfort zones/have a bigger champ/role pool? outside the narrative of look at the powah of my "insert champ" vs. look at the powah of our team?

Waifu comp is our only answer.

A more serious answer, I prefer more fexibility on comp, just imagine if they had anivia mid, or had good early champion like pantheon. One unlucky bot gang is all they need to shut down the an early tower push.

I much prefer the hyper carry comp. The comp usually have good cc/utility, great early champ with bad scaling, and hyper carry as a fail-safe in case the team had to defend till late game. May be an assassin if other team also have a hyper carry.

I guess that is because I haven't had a game lately that I am happy with my cs.

 

[EXGN]

Haha, true about Shen. I forgot he's banned a lot, I haven't played a ranked game in a bit.

I think for the fast-push strat, Nunu may be an even better option than Zyra or Taric. Better buff control and AA buff for faster pushing. His Blood Boil gives his team like... 3,000 gold worth of stats, which is even better in a forced low-economy strategy.

 

[scy]

I think the ability to be loose is a great characteristic for most of the top teams. like you can talk about how certain people only play certain champs, but it's always team orientated, and being flexible is always desirable.

I'd rather we play to win in Ranked. The goal, yes, is to be a lot looser even there, sure, but we don't have that kind of practice or general mechanics for every role to do that in a "serious" game. If other people disagree and don't mind playing a ranked game with everyone in off-roles and lose elo for it, I suppose that's their call. I personally don't want that.

If you mean to just be looser in the picks we make for roles, sure. That's good. I don't think anyone said anything about forcing champion picks, though.

I think if we approach ranked 5s not with the intent of cheesing wins but understanding the game better, it'd be prtty sweet

Well, yeah but ... I'm not sure what makes you think playing the Korean-style (or CLG.NA style, since they do more of the lane rotations) of early aggression makes it a cheese win. We do need a team comp that can push AND do something else, but that's why the mid in the comp has to be a good mid-to-late game pick. That is, we don't push comp with an Anivia, for instance, and we need to know at champ select when the team comp we're going to push heavily against doesn't favor us and plan accordingly. We can't pick someone that ONLY functions in a hyper aggressive pushing strat.

Also, not really advocating always playing this strat.

I think for the fast-push strat, Nunu may be an even better option than Zyra or Taric. Better buff control and AA buff for faster pushing. His Blood Boil gives his team like... 3,000 gold worth of stats, which is even better in a forced low-economy strategy.

Personally, I think he'd be a terrible pick for it. What he gives to team fights is pretty small in the grand scheme of things. I'd rather have the Zyra ult for team fights and her early game zoning is amazing. Maybe that's just me, though.

Edit: Also, I like playing Zyra and don't like playing Nunu :x Demolitionist + Blood Boil + built-in ASPD Steroid would be ridiculous for towers though.

 

[Kenai]

But it got me thinking about the LoL elo system and just how fundamentally broken it is for teams. In that Fiora game, even though it was a normal, I would have lost whatever amount of invisible back-end elo in that game, even though I personally played really well. In the Jax game, I gave our team elo they didn't deserve because I won the game for them. That means those bad players are going to be in other peoples' games, completely out of their depth. The elo system simply doesn't take performance into account at all. It's such a weird system for a game like LoL. One bad lane can completely ruin a game of LoL for your team, even if other people are playing well. I'm at least silver in terms of ability, potentially gold, but I keep getting stuck in bronze elo because of terrible teams.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

What you said kinda makes sense to me, but you run into two issues:

1) There's almost no way I can think of to reliably judge performance in the way you are describing.

2) The law of averages states that most people will be going through the exact same crap as you and me and rise above it (or sink even lower I guess).

That's why people recommend teams/queues with other people you know instead of pugging. That's why pugs get the reputation they do, and across multiple games no clear cut solution has been found outside of teaming up with folks you know don't suck, from WoW to LoL to GW2, you name it.

 

[EXGN]

Haha wow, just saw this on Reddit. Relevant to what we are talking about: http://esfiworld.com/feature/team-composition-analysis-azubu-blazes-fast-push

 

[brian!]

oh I was just making a difference between something meant to overwhelm, vs. something more analytical. like cheesing, if im understanding it right, is basically about surprising the other team and giving them something they aren't used to, and basing your strat on that feeling

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't play to win, I just mean that being adaptive is a better quality towards winning rather than participating in something that potentially hinders your play. I'm not saying that anyone is saying that, just talking to the air or talking about some invisible hypothetical

like when I type stuff I don't mean to put things in people's mouths, I'm really just addressing ranked 5s as a more fruitful environment, trying to win until the end is part of that, but getting better at the game and having more fun is also part of that

this whole concept of off-roles is toxic I think

 

[Ferrio]

Haha wow, just saw this on Reddit. Relevant to what we are talking about: http://esfiworld.com/feature/team-composition-analysis-azubu-blazes-fast-push

Yay diana.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

What you said kinda makes sense to me, but you run into two issues:

1) There's almost no way I can think of to reliably judge performance in the way you are describing.

2) The law of averages states that most people will be going through the exact same crap as you and me and rise above it (or sink even lower I guess).

That's why people recommend teams/queues with other people you know instead of pugging. That's why pugs get the reputation they do, and across multiple games no clear cut solution has been found outside of teaming up with folks you know don't suck, from WoW to LoL to GW2, you name it.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

In terms of player performance, surely there should be a way of judging by score, i.e. if your team is bad but you're involved in literally every kill your team gets or you have a tonne of kills or assists and you take down turrets, it should be able to tell that you've had a good game personally and you should't be dropped even lower down the scale.

I dunno, I'm not a systems designer or anything like that, but it seems like such an imperfect system. Meh.

 

[garath]

Carried my team as jungle Jax in that last game I played. Honestly, the team was just terrible. We had an insta-lock Zed bot with an Olaf and a Yorick top who just got absolutely battered by a Kong. I finished 15/8/9, took down all the inhib turrets as well as getting the first turret of the match after a successful gank bot. Got an inhib too, as well soloing Baron. I won the game for my team.

Previous to that I played a game as jungle Fiora. Went 8/6/8, was involved in all of my team's 16 kills. Again I had a terrible team, even worse than before, and I just couldn't carry them enough in that game.

But it got me thinking about the LoL elo system and just how fundamentally broken it is for teams. In that Fiora game, even though it was a normal, I would have lost whatever amount of invisible back-end elo in that game, even though I personally played really well. In the Jax game, I gave our team elo they didn't deserve because I won the game for them. That means those bad players are going to be in other peoples' games, completely out of their depth. The elo system simply doesn't take performance into account at all. It's such a weird system for a game like LoL. One bad lane can completely ruin a game of LoL for your team, even if other people are playing well. I'm at least silver in terms of ability, potentially gold, but I keep getting stuck in bronze elo because of terrible teams.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I've said this before but ELO is like poker. It's a game of skill with a random element. In poker that random element is the draw. You may push your chips in with a 90% chance to win but that's still 10% chance to lose. In LoL, that random element is your team. You can play very well individually and still lose the team game.

However, the ELO system works because the better players will win games more than they lose. If you are consistently performing well, and understand the game, you'll be influencing your team enough to win games and gain ELO. Sure some people will get carried and some good players will lose games but over time the good rise to the top and the bad fall to the bottom.

It's the reason you see the same people rise to diamond in LoL along with all their smurfs and the pros in poker making a living off the game.

edit: the most important thing to remember is ELO isn't made in 1-2 games. It's a confidence system that is built over many games. The more games you play, the more accurate your ELO is. Those handful of bad games will lose you ELO but if you are truly better than your elo, you will win more than you lose and work your way back up.

 

[Ferrio]

I've said this before but ELO is like poker. It's a game of skill with a random element. In poker that random element is the draw. You may push your chips in with a 90% chance to win but that's still 10% chance to lose. In LoL, that random element is your team. You can play very well individually and still lose the team game.

However, the ELO system works because the better players will win games more than they lose. If you are consistently performing well, and understand the game, you'll be influencing your team enough to win games and gain ELO. Sure some people will get carried and some good players will lose games but over time the good rise to the top and the bad fall to the bottom.

It's the reason you see the same people rise to diamond in LoL along with all their smurfs and the pros in poker making a living off the game.

edit: the most important thing to remember is ELO isn't made in 1-2 games. It's a confidence system that is built over many games. The more games you play, the more accurate your ELO is. Those handful of bad games will lose you ELO but if you are truly better than your elo, you will win more than you lose and work your way back up.

To me, the trouble is the time it takes to get your true elo. You can get lucky and shoot far beyond it, or below it. And can take many games to stabalize. Can be demoralizing to people who've got that initial bad draw.

 

[scy]

oh I was just making a difference between something meant to overwhelm, vs. something more analytical. like cheesing, if im understanding it right, is basically about surprising the other team and giving them something they aren't used to, and basing your strat on that feeling

Cheese, to me, is a strat that wins not because it's a valid strat but by doing something so outlandish that it wins by virtue of surprise only. From an RTS background, this is stuff like fast proxy rushes or saccing your economy to win by the single minute mark. It almost removes the skill element at all and comes down to the "Do they know it's coming? If so, I lose."

Edit: Typing that out, I suppose we could say early pushing is a cheese strat due to the lack of a late game focus and so-on but "cheese" sort of implies "not actually valid."

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't play to win, I just mean that being adaptive is a better quality towards winning rather than participating in something that potentially hinders your play.

Well, I speak more of "When we do this comp right now, we should do it rather strictly" because ... well, we've done it all of five times or so. And with different people every time. Until we have the mechanics and ins-and-outs down, I'd rather not try things out with it. Learn it first, then experiment with it.

this whole concept of off-roles is toxic I think

I dunno. It depends on how it gets taken, I guess. I consider jungle to be my off-role. The role I'm fairly bad at compared to what my elo/hidden elo/whatever is. It doesn't mean anything besides acknowledging that I won't be playing at my best at it. I don't mean for it as a derogatory thing, though, or a rationale for enforcing certain people to play only certain roles.

However, the ELO system works because the better players will win games more than they lose. If you are consistently performing well, and understand the game, you'll be influencing your team enough to win games and gain ELO. Sure some people will get carried and some good players will lose games but over time the good rise to the top and the bad fall to the bottom.

edit: the most important thing to remember is ELO isn't made in 1-2 games. It's a confidence system that is built over many games. The more games you play, the more accurate your ELO is. Those handful of bad games will lose you ELO but if you are truly better than your elo, you will win more than you lose and work your way back up.

Basically, this. Don't look at elo in the short term but rather the long term. Elo is more representative of your average level of play.

Also, almost every game will have someone getting carried and someone losing despite doing well. There's a lot you can do to help out people losing, however. Roam and gank. Win lane harder to force jungle pressure to you instead of elsewhere (or to allow your jungler to only worry about two lanes not three). Or, if you're the jungler, do everything.

If you win your lane and do nothing with it, you forgot that it's a team game. Don't expect the other lanes to win themselves. Win your lane so you can help the other lanes win.

 

[brian!]

yeah I don't think I disagree with any of that, I'm just talking more abstractly and probably using shitty language to do it

 

[Ferrio]

People really need to break out of their roles, they don't have to abandon their "official" role.. but know how to handle every role gives you a way better understanding of the game.

Knowing what your jungler expects from you and visa versa because you've been in their shoes is very helpful.

 

[EXGN]

People really need to break out of their roles, they don't have to abandon their "official" role.. but know how to handle every role gives you a way better understanding of the game.

Knowing what your jungler expects from you and visa versa because you've been in their shoes is very helpful.

Yeah, it really does. I jungle mained in S1 and for the first half of S2 before I switched to a mix of mid (when solo) and support (when duo). As a midlaner, I knew roughly when junglers would be at red and could try to kill them while they were low on life. As a support, my jungling helped me to understand where the jungler likely was and which paths to ward.

 

[scy]

Hey guys. If you haven’t already, check out my initial post about the itemization changes you’ll be seeing during the preseason. Today I thought I’d reveal a new item we can’t wait for you to get your hands on.

Ranged Carries traditionally have had the role of completely and utterly dominating a single target through high-capacity damage. However, many of our AD carries also have a substantial amount of Area of Effect damage that they currently are unable to specialize into. This leads them to an interesting paradox – I am a carry with strong Area of Effect damage, but I must itemize single target damage to stay relevant.

What if we could give you an alternative?

Runaan’s Hurricane

(Ranged Only)
+60% Attack Speed
UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks fire minor bolts at 2 nearby targets, each dealing (50% of Total Attack Damage) physical damage. These apply on-hit effects.

First of all, let’s examine what this item actually does:

Hurricane allows your ranged basic attacks to fire secondary bolts at nearby targets. These bolts cannot critically strike but can trigger your other on-hit effects, such as Varus’ Blighted Quiver in the above example. This allows characters like Varus or Miss Fortune, already strong Area of Effect damage dealers, to specialize into Area of Effect damage if they’d like to do so.

Let’s delve further into specifics:

1. Hurricane triggers each time you attack.
2. Hurricane is not an on-hit proc, nor does it trigger off of spells or abilities like Mystic Shot or Double Up that apply on-hit effects.
3. Hurricane deals 50% of your total attack damage.
4. Hurricane applies the full effect of on-hit effects with each bolt.

Taking this further, let’s explore how Hurricane interacts with various champion abilities:

Varus – Applies Blighted Quiver on everyone hit, which can then get triggered by his other spells.
Caitlyn – Gains one stack of Headshot for each target hit. Fires Headshot only at the primary target.
Graves – Reduces the cooldown of Quickdraw for 2 seconds for each target hit.
Miss Fortune – Applies and stacks Impure Shots on every target hit. Activating Impure Shots will apply Grievous wounds to every target hit.

Champions that synergize poorly with Hurricane would be:

Ezreal – Doesn’t really have any effects that synergize with Hurricane.
Vayne – Silver bolts only applies on the primary target and requires consecutive hits to proc, thus Hurricane is mostly wasted.

We hope that Hurricane opens up some interesting build paths for AD carries looking to specialize in area of effect damage. While Hurricane certainly isn’t for every ranged character, we do hope that Hurricane allows carries to diverge from the standard path of single target damage in favor of a more AoE centric build they can use to gun down multiple opponents at the same time.

-Xypherous

oboy?

Edit:

People really need to break out of their roles, they don't have to abandon their "official" role.. but know how to handle every role gives you a way better understanding of the game.

For me, I mostly don't want to jungle because I don't think I do enough to impact the game when I do try it and that it ultimately hurts our chances of winning. I guess if people are fine with it, I'd like to practice jungling more (when I don't want to practice the champs I want to learn in other roles) but it's hard to say "Let me practice jungling this game" in a pre-made knowing that it might be why we lose.

 

[garath]

To me, the trouble is the time it takes to get your true elo. You can get lucky and shoot far beyond it, or below it. And can take many games to stabalize. Can be demoralizing to people who've got that initial bad draw.

Can't argue with that. I certainly don't have the time to put in to get my true elo.

 

[davidpdong]

So what happens when the jungler pressures your 1v2 lane and then they lane switch?

Also alot of champs mentioned like Ori are popular picks and bans, what champs to play in lieu of them?

I think maximizing your bot lane synergy is worth the tradeoff in the case of Taric/Graves bot. As in, I think picking Taric Graves is smarter than Graves Sona. Esp in a push strat.

I play mid competently enough also, but mid and top are such hard to get roles in games because EVERYONE wants mid and top. I jungle poorly, I understand it the playstyle I just don't enjoy it. With the incoming S3 changes I also don't want to burn all that time practicing something about to drastically change.

ASL plz.

 

[Ferrio]

Good item for a teemo. Onhit teemo spreading love everywhere.

Not to mention that'll synergize with life steal so well.

 

[lazorexplosion]

oboy?

oboy.

I don't even know what that's gonna do.

So does that mean a lichbane TF could do 3 gold card procs at once? That could be fun.

Edit: I guess it depends on the cost, but at least my initial impression is I'll go bloodthirster/hurricane 100% of the time on ad carries. Or even black cleaver/hurricane.

Edit2: Oh god hurricane kog maw. GG. Hurricane Ashe, going somewhere? Or twitch. I think twitch just became a hypercarry.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I've said this before but ELO is like poker. It's a game of skill with a random element. In poker that random element is the draw. You may push your chips in with a 90% chance to win but that's still 10% chance to lose. In LoL, that random element is your team. You can play very well individually and still lose the team game.

However, the ELO system works because the better players will win games more than they lose. If you are consistently performing well, and understand the game, you'll be influencing your team enough to win games and gain ELO. Sure some people will get carried and some good players will lose games but over time the good rise to the top and the bad fall to the bottom.

It's the reason you see the same people rise to diamond in LoL along with all their smurfs and the pros in poker making a living off the game.

edit: the most important thing to remember is ELO isn't made in 1-2 games. It's a confidence system that is built over many games. The more games you play, the more accurate your ELO is. Those handful of bad games will lose you ELO but if you are truly better than your elo, you will win more than you lose and work your way back up.

I suppose you're right, it just feels absolutely shit when you are in that rut of elo hell. I generally don;t get to play with friends until late evenings, and they're all good so we generally do well, its just if I'm off college like I am this week and I want to play during the week I gotta solo, and I generally just always get shit teams. It just infuriates me when I'm playing well but I'm being dragged down by others so hard.

If one person's just having a bad game, that's fine and I can't do anything about that and I won;t have a go at them either, it's just when I get put into a team full of people who are clearly out of their depth it's especially annoying.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Good item for a teemo. Onhit teemo spreading love everywhere.

Not to mention that'll synergize with life steal so well.

Wow, get ready for Teemo to become incredibly OP. AP/AS Teemo with that? *shudders*

 

[EXGN]

oboy?

Twitch, Teemo and Varus OP now.

 

[Ferrio]

This is a way way way bigger shakeup than S1->S2 was. Game is going to be dramatically different I think.

 

[dimb]

How does the Hurricane item differentiate itself from Tiamat? I still haven't seen what I consider to be an adequate replacement for Ionic Spark.

 

[kayos90]

oboy?

Edit:



For me, I mostly don't want to jungle because I don't think I do enough to impact the game when I do try it and that it ultimately hurts our chances of winning. I guess if people are fine with it, I'd like to practice jungling more (when I don't want to practice the champs I want to learn in other roles) but it's hard to say "Let me practice jungling this game" in a pre-made knowing that it might be why we lose.

Awww.... that means this won't work with kogmaw then. Wait.... The range still makes him OP. LOL.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes it takes forever. I've wasted like years of my life playing 500 ranked games. Why? Who knows, I'm pretty dumb.

Also, does anyone know the schedule for the updates? Like, they just updated some items, but if I understand correctly:

* Jungle changes,
* More item changes,
* Surge deletion and summoner spell adjustment,
* Mastery changes

All of the above are still for a future patch or patches?

 

[brian!]

So what happens when the jungler pressures your 1v2 lane and then they lane switch?

Also alot of champs mentioned like Ori are popular picks and bans, what champs to play in lieu of them?

I think maximizing your bot lane synergy is worth the tradeoff in the case of Taric/Graves bot. As in, I think picking Taric Graves is smarter than Graves Sona. Esp in a push strat.

I play mid competently enough also, but mid and top are such hard to get roles in games because EVERYONE wants mid and top. I jungle poorly, I understand it the playstyle I just don't enjoy it. With the incoming S3 changes I also don't want to burn all that time practicing something about to drastically change.

ASL plz.

pls...
but yeah this is completely the thought I want to engage in
some roles are easier to play than others, but understanding the playstyle is soooo important, and putting the muscle memory of the playstyle into the context of the game is soooo important

if in the game we were playing there was more jungle pressure at bot it would have been better for them. rex likes to play aggressive and it's pretty easy to gank him, so the support needs to be chosen in tandem if he is playing ad. like that was the right thing for the other team to do, but 3 man diving top is part of whatever meta they were trying so they did that. being able to discern weakness on the fly is something I want to practice, stuff like that

and what I think is that while practicing certain styles is pretty important, shouldnt try new styles in ranked, etc. etc., what needs to be consistently practiced is the approach to practicing, like being fruitful and productive and stuff.

edit:blah blah blah, I'm not saying it's one way atm, just pointing out ways I like

 

[Blizzard]

How does the Hurricane item differentiate itself from Tiamat? I still haven't seen what I consider to be an adequate replacement for Ionic Spark.

Ionic spark hits enemies near your target every few attacks on say, Teemo, right?

The hurricane item would mean you got a spread effect, like Ionic spark, every single attack, potentially applying wits end + malady shred + frozen mallet slow + Teemo poison every single attack to a group of enemies. And I guess lifesteal from each one if you had a lifesteal item as well.

 

[kayos90]

I just realized Varus can now destroy 9 stacks of blight at once. LOL.

 

[scy]

So what happens when the jungler pressures your 1v2 lane and then they lane switch?

What if's are hard to deal with! That's why you need a safe top laner. The right answer to the pushing strat is to outpush them, basically. That or to just force the game to stagnate and draw it out.

Also alot of champs mentioned like Ori are popular picks and bans, what champs to play in lieu of them?

There's a lot of picks for it, honestly. Orianna, Diana, Katarina come to mind for solid mids and then Kiunch is just comfortable with Ahri so that works well too. It'd be pretty hard to completely shut out mid lane. Just need someone with a good mid-to-late game that can roam or at least do something map wise. Even an Evelynn works here. Karthus is a possibility if they're really good at just farming under turret all game :x

I think maximizing your bot lane synergy is worth the tradeoff in the case of Taric/Graves bot. As in, I think picking Taric Graves is smarter than Graves Sona. Esp in a push strat.

It depends on the pairing. I'd still rather Zyra over Taric here I think but I do agree with Taric over Sona most likely. You do still need an ADC/Support that work well together, not just any two and you push. They still go do a 2v2 lane after all.

So does that mean a lichbane TF could do 3 gold card procs at once? That could be fun.

I imagine Gold Card will function like Silver Bolts and just on the one target. Lichbane/Sheen/TF won't proc off of it, though. It deals damage based on your Total AD, not your auto attack damage. That is, something that modifies the damage of your next attack but does not modify your actual AD won't work with it. That's based off the logic behind Tiamat, anyway.

and what I think is that while practicing certain styles is pretty important, shouldnt try new styles in ranked, etc. etc., what needs to be consistently practiced is the approach to practicing, like being fruitful and productive and stuff.

Completely agree with this.

 

[Ferrio]

I wanna try a push game with you guys

 

[kayos90]

You would need good wave clearing and antipoke comp to counter a push build. Anivia is a good pick for that.

 

[davidpdong]

Right, I'm not poking holes or trying to be a contrarian, I think we just want to identify the scenarios now instead of at champ select and then just assuming everyone is on the same page.

Lane switching back is a common counter tactic and if they picked for a stronger mid-late game team. You'd be on your backfoot. We'd have to address it in game but it's strong to identify all the usual counters and be ready for them.

I agree Zyra is a bit crazy right now. I also think Jayce fits into almost any comp.

Kiunch is sad at his CS, thats why he plays 2hr nasus games.

 

[scy]

How does the Hurricane item differentiate itself from Tiamat? I still haven't seen what I consider to be an adequate replacement for Ionic Spark.

Well, for one, Tiamat is melee only, Hurricane is ranged only. Hurricane and Tiamat both seem to serve as ways to give ADCs/bruisers better wave clear options and to help the ones with good on-hits in a team fight setting. We'll see if they actually get used, though.

Ionic Spark's replacement is Statikk Shiv most likely. Whenever that gets revealed.

Right, I'm not poking holes or trying to be a contrarian, I think we just want to identify the scenarios now instead of at champ select and then just assuming everyone is on the same page.

It's good, though. We need to be able to identify it so we know when to change strats in champ select. And, like closer was saying, to not put ourselves all-in on only one viable route for the game. If all our picks fall off late game then we gave ourselves a time limit in the game. Always have some other option.

Lane switching back is a common counter tactic and if they picked for a stronger mid-late game team. You'd be on your backfoot. We'd have to address it in game but it's strong to identify all the usual counters and be ready for them.

Realistically speaking, if they switch back on you after your lane swap, you at least caused them to lose some time with the after-the-game-started-swap. Then it's just back to your top lane beating theirs, your bot lane beating theirs really.

 

[kayos90]

Hurricane will be a very niche item. Just saying.

 

[scy]

Hurricane will be a very niche item. Just saying.

I'm curious as to how it interacts with Manamune. Lets say that Manamune takes 5% of your Mana per hit for the active. Does Hurricane take 5%? 15%? Does it apply at all? Sheen/TF/etc. don't work with Tiamat so I imagine the same for Hurricane but does that same logic hold true to Manamune?

This could potentially make Varus the best team-wide damage dealer with some non-crit based build, for instance. Hurricane could also potentially just be a good MF or Graves option late game over a BT depending on how BT gets changed (it's been mentioned that Life Steal will be harder to get a lot of so I imagine Tiamat's 10% will be a rather big deal for a comparison as to how BT gets reworked). Manamune/IE/Hurricane?

Black Cleaver feels awfully supporty at this point but that's worth mention too, I suppose. Probably more for a ranged top pick to look into Hurricane+Cleaver.

 

[Boken]

Ionic Spark didnt proc on hit effects.

Hurricane on hit lulu.

Also, I never get to play my role with GAF anyway.

But christ, I feel like s3 is going to have a lot of damage flying around...

 

[Haly]

People will still build IE/BT, totally gimmick item for gimmick builds. It's not like Tiamat which actually looks like a viable alternative to IE or BT because of the life steal and Active.

 

[Boken]

It doesn't even have attack damage, of course they're gonna buy an AD item

Anyway, BotRK and Hurricane anyone? Dat AOE lifesteal

 

[scy]

It doesn't even have attack damage, of course they're gonna buy an AD item

Anyway, BotRK and Hurricane anyone? Dat AOE lifesteal

BotRK + Black Cleaver + Hurricane. dat AoE Life Steal Armor Shred. Give some other on-hit to apply and we've got something strange going on.

Also, Caitlyn getting Headshot activated faster with Hurricane is worth at least some consideration. Maybe.

 

[Haly]

On-hit teemo with Rylai's and Malady ~~~

 

[Boken]

Support Urgot with hurricane: aoe damage reduction and slow. Gasp.

Then he suicide swaps to get his carry a kill. sniff, urgot support so manly

 

[scy]

Support Urgot with hurricane: aoe damage reduction and slow. Gasp.

Then he suicide swaps to get his carry a kill. sniff, urgot support so manly

There's your new support for 2013

 

[Haly]

Still ugly, no one will play him.

Would this work with Kennan's Kunais? AS stunlock Ken?

 

[Boken]

But seriously, that shit sounds kinda strong on kogmaw

I feel like this item has too much AS%

 

[kayos90]

I'm curious as to how it interacts with Manamune. Lets say that Manamune takes 5% of your Mana per hit for the active. Does Hurricane take 5%? 15%? Does it apply at all? Sheen/TF/etc. don't work with TF so I imagine the same for Hurricane but does that same logic hold true to Manamune?

This could potentially make Varus the best team-wide damage dealer with some non-crit based build, for instance. Hurricane could also potentially just be a good MF or Graves option late game over a BT depending on how BT gets changed (it's been mentioned that Life Steal will be harder to get a lot of so I imagine Tiamat's 10% will be a rather big deal). Manamune/IE/Hurricane?

Black Cleaver feels awfully supporty at this point but that's worth mention too, I suppose. Probably more for a ranged top pick to look into Hurricane+Cleaver.

Well I think steroids and range are going to be the two BIG factors that make or break this item. Characters like Tristana and Kog are going to benefit from this item hugely in the late game especially if you're not thinking about that sustain from a BT. The thing that I'm worried about is when this item will come into play. You definitely won't build this as an early game item and even mid game I feel a bit wary. Part of it has to do with this affecting farming minions since it's aoe. This item will shine more late game because it's not that much of a focus on cs.

 

[Ashhong]

Man, this game is completely different when I solo normal vs with my team of friends. Goes from the most frustrating game ever to extremely fun and borderline easy.

 

[Haly]

But seriously, that shit sounds kinda strong on kogmaw

I feel like this item has too much AS%

I think that was the only way they could make it feel worthwhile over the typical BFS-based item progression.

It'll be interesting to see if this works with Kayle, if you attack 3 nearby targets, would each one trigger the AoE burn? That would mean the middle target is getting burned thrice.

 

[Kenai]

You would need good wave clearing and antipoke comp to counter a push build. Anivia is a good pick for that.

Would Ziggs be ok? I seem to clear lanes with him pretty quickly. I mean, I know Anivia would prolly be better, but...

 

[kayos90]

I think that was the only way they could make it feel worthwhile over the typical BFS-based item progression.

It'll be interesting to see if this works with Kayle, if you attack 3 nearby targets, would each one trigger the AoE burn? That would mean the middle target is getting burned thrice.

No. It wouldn't work like that on Kayle.

Would Ziggs be ok? I seem to clear lanes with him pretty quickly. I mean, I know Anivia would prolly be better, but...

Most likely not. Too long of a CD and Anivia has better utility.