Barack Lesnar
Banned
Oh no I think this is great. It really gives the game new life. I love these changes and I haven't even tried em yet. I was just saying they've added several Dota things.
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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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Oh no I think this is great. It really gives the game new life. I love these changes and I haven't even tried em yet. I was just saying they've added several Dota things.
Why is that? Takes too long to get Murasama?
By all accounts, player count/play time is increasing. It's more that A) More gold needed to exist in the game for junglers, B) Supports need more gold and more things to do, and C) More item diversity.
Boots3 and two pots on the first back means you spent 210 Gold on Potions. If you bought Flask, that's 225 Gold upfront for 6 charges (216 Gold) and then you can sell the Flask for 90. You effectively got 216 Gold worth of Potions for 135 Gold (roughly 4 potions worth). Granted, it's Health (~23 Gold per use) and Mana (~13 Gold per use) so it's not as cut-and-dry as comparing it to Health pots.
Basically, if you buy more than 4 potions normally, Flask is more cost efficient at a minimum of four charges for the same net gold spent and gains in value as more charges get used. I buy a decent amount of pots (typically like having 1-2 on me along with 1-3 wards) so Flask is looking at being around a 400g return for 135 total gold spent for me on average.
Also worth noting, Utility builds can start Cloth (Machete for Junglers) + Flask. Though this is possibly more for top laners or junglers that can get by with a 9/7/14 build (or some variation). Support has it a pretty viable option, though.
It'll largely depend on the champs in question. I think the biggest change we'll see may just be some lane diversity stuff. Changes in Armor costs and ways to deal with stacked Armor may make more Assassins viable. Their best role may be mid where they just flat out counter a lot of APs eventually (since murdering squishies is their role).
Rune changes here may just be more Penetration runes run.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
same
Then good on Riot for doing this. I agree supports were dreadfully boring save for a few (Lulu, Ali, Blitz). You rarely ever see someone wanting to be support. And we needed more items. Great job
IsayFever
Member
Don't think Lulu is the best way to gauge that
Just feels really unhelpful. I had full stacks by like 24 minutes, but the investment into it is just too high in terms of the attention that it needs, and it really sets you back on more useful items. The toggle on it is really awful. Almost unnoticeable beyond the fact that it eats mana.
Who else is it really going to be useful on?
Wait, this was added to Summoner's Rift?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Just started a ranked game with Jax (thanks for a gaffer for giving me Pax Jax skin like a year ago btw!). I got a point in the Bisquit mastery, not sure what it will do lawl.
Link115 breaks down the new items. Pretty much along the lines of what I thought (esp regarding Flask+Sightstone), although he still seems skeptical of Runaan's which I think seems pretty OP.
http://pastebin.com/hK9SL6L8
http://pastebin.com/hK9SL6L8
IsayFever
Member
Probably champs that are designed around using skills with ad scaling, like Ezreal and Corki and not ap scaling champions on which you auto attack as your primary source of damage
You changed your pic?
IsayFever
Member
Changed it back. Hate looking like Pancakes
Thanks!
They can get Phage and Sheen for about the same amount of gold. Not exactly a hard choice. It's not like the item scales with AD. It rewards a high attack speed and a high mana pool. Nobody is going to buy this thing except maybe still Yorick. Not even as good as the old Manamune for him.
Ignoring base Mana, it grants 40 AD (20 base, 20 from Awe) and drains 40 Mana per swing for 80 Damage. It's designed for auto-attacking champs with Mana pools that normally don't see much use. If anything, it's kind of a ridiculous item for certain champs. I'm curious if we'll see some Muramana + Iceborn Gauntlet sort of builds. Or maybe the return of ADCs with Manamune, though I'm not sure of it's total worth vs rushed TF for them. Urgot is probably pretty happy, though. For the one person who still plays him.
Curious on how Kha'zix enjoys getting an extra ~100 damage swings off on his engage and more W harass in lane.
Not sure I agree with him on Hydra or Mercurial. Hydra gives a 1.0 AD (down to 0.6 if far away) scaling ability on a 10s CD. For a lot of bruisers/assassins, that's giving their burst combo a ~33% damage boost (~3.0 AD burst to ~4.0). And that's 0.6 - 1.0 total AD, not bonus. IE is less damage than it for the people who would build Hydra; it's for pure AD builds, not ones that want AD/ASPD/Crit.
Mercurial is just good.
forgeforsaken
Member
I think they are looking at things from the old meta and lane perspective right now too. Things like Shard or True Ice combined with Crucible make me think you could make a really strong bruiser/support lane.
I also think he will end up wrong about Hydra and it will be really strong on some champs.
Manamune has ten base AD. You realize you could get a Last Whisper for the same price right? Or you could buy Brutalizer on top of another smaller item. You also need to redo your math, because you are not going to be doing 80 every hit, and even if you do it won't be until you hit full stacks, and it comes with a heavy cost.
Who is it ridiculous on? Lane/jungle Blitzcrank who wouldn't even survive in lane with a Tear? Your description fits nobody. It is too easy to punish people who go Tear in lane.
Come on. Kha'Zix? Seriously? Manamune offers really poor mana regen. It's not even good at enabling harass.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Crappy base item, you spent so much money for mana+mp5 being useless in early game while you opponent is stacking dorans. Even when you finish manamune, you still need a lot of spamming to reach it's potential. The only one that can justify it are the early game bully like yorick.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
There can only be one.
5*35 = 175?
Thing is, people don't buy 6 pots (charges) upfront because it sets back their early game items or whatever for the first b. Flask doesn't provide an ROI until your second b, which doesn't change. If you continue to buy pots on your second b onwards, then yes flask is a good start for you. I do this consistently when I am top lane so flask is a good buy there. Mid lane however, I buy 1-2 pots on the first b, and if laning goes well I have enough saved for damage and usually the burst in mid is enough that a pot won't save you unless they aren't aggressive enough. This isn't even considering the mana potion part of the flask, which is negated as mid if you are fed blue. For support more of my money is spent on wards than potions (I buy a max of 3 pots currently as support. If I need more we're losing lane heavily), and you stay in lane based on how conservative you are with your wards.
Even jungle I don't think it'll be a good start item. With the weaker S2 jungle most junglers use 3 pots and with the S3 jungle list you can see that 5 pots + machete is still very rough on them. Buying a flask to start then limits you to 2 health pots worth and will likely get you killed in the jungle or going back to the fountain mid-clear.
Edit: Thinking on it more, for mid/top it's definitely a lot more viable than what I thought originally, especially with fairy charm and rejuv bead being cheap desirable options that will build into later game items, but even though it's really cost efficient, I don't think it's worth the cost to buy for jungle/ad/support given other choices.
This is my trophy from IPL5. Long weekend but I had a lot of fun. I talked to most everyone that signed this, and I have to say the nicest player I met was surprisingly SaintVicious.
List of people who signed that I remember.
rekkles
theoddone
voyboy
dyrus
saintvicious
krepo
doublelift
soaz
phreak
snoopeh
ambition
wickd
misaya
dan dinh
hatperson
xpecial
reginald
chaox
xspecial
helios
nyjacky
genja
gosupepper
alexich
Erik Braa (jax/draven)
Adam harrington (shaco/ryze)
xpeke
cyanide
nrated
yellowpete
froggen
deman
jatt
joe miller
scarra
aphromoo
List of people who signed that I remember.
rekkles
theoddone
voyboy
dyrus
saintvicious
krepo
doublelift
soaz
phreak
snoopeh
ambition
wickd
misaya
dan dinh
hatperson
xpecial
reginald
chaox
xspecial
helios
nyjacky
genja
gosupepper
alexich
Erik Braa (jax/draven)
Adam harrington (shaco/ryze)
xpeke
cyanide
nrated
yellowpete
froggen
deman
jatt
joe miller
scarra
aphromoo
I don't have the game in front of me. Last I checked, Muramana was 20 AD so if it has been changed, that's my bad. Also, Muramana deals Magic damage, which we can count as either a positive or negative (chances are the latter as spell pen on an AD issues will come up).
I'm well aware of what it costs.
I need to redo my math in the sense that when I went and rewrote that segment, I went back to the 4%/8% values and not the 3%/6% ones (unless it's back up to 4%/8%, anyway). It would be -30 Mana per swing for +60 Magic damage per hit, -3% for each subsequent attack (60, 58.2, 56.4, etc.). It takes a long amount of swings before that damage becomes an irrelevant amount. This is also ignoring base mana pools, though it also ignores mana spent using abilities in the first place. That said, -300 Mana from the start steals means you're dealing ~40 extra damage per hit.
Also worth note is that Manamune applies damage to single-target spells as well. Though that kind of theorycrafting for, say, Ryze, feels fairly weird.
It effectively doubles his base regen. Then again, that's more a testament of how poor his base regen is.
I'm not saying it's amazing for Kha'zix (at least not without playtesting). He's just the AD Caster that came to mind for someone who'd benefit from more regen in lane with his W.
I did the initial post with 6 potions; changed it to 5 since that was more reasonable but didn't adjust the gold value.
It's more for a lane that consistently trades, yeah. Mid is where the value isn't that great (under current meta) since it's less of a dueling lane. That said, you can just sell it after your second back. That's when you get your first "big ticket" item anyway. Unless you're me and sit in lane until 4k gold.
Basically: Is it worth getting Flask at the start for your first two backs vs starting with a small item + one or two pots? That's the cost-benefit analysis to focus on in my mind.
We'll see. I'm inclined to agree that it may not be enough health sustain for the early clear and questionable use for the long term sustain.
Murmana is 20 AD. Manamune was dropped to 10 AD from 20.
The values you have are off. Murmana's toggle consumes 3% of current mana to deal twice as much as magic damage. It gives itself 30 damage on hit and drops lower and lower. A fantastic reward after 20+ minutes of building up the stacks on it. Which is really the crux of it. You are paying a lot for an item that isn't very good in lane that sets you behind, and it never becomes anything worthwhile.
Having more mana on Kha'Zix would be great. But Manamune isn't really going to help him win his lane in a big way, especially when he get the components for the new Black Cleaver for the same price that also actually help you in lane.
Well, most my mid experience is Katarina (lolflask), Diana, and Orianna. I play pretty aggressive in mid, though, so I tend to buy 1-2 pots until like ... the 20m mark. 1-2 pots, 2 wards. Almost always.
I do disagree with you on support, though. Flask is just something that'll be there for that occasional use for awhile. You'll have the room for it for three, four, maybe five backs (though, the time between them is dictated by ward duration generally, not necessarily your health). It does allow for more aggressive play due to having more sustain, though. Time will tell if that'll actually be possible. I'll definitely try it with Nami at some point, though it feels like it might be just enough of a cost to delay an earlier Sightstone off a Charm + Flask start.
For it to give 30 damage on hit, that means you're sitting at 500 Mana.
I disagree with the latter part (never being worthwhile). The issue of it in lane is completely and totally valid and will most likely be the crux of the issue with the item. It basically seeks to be used on someone who autos a lot with skill use that doesn't drain a lot of mana and has a strong enough early game to rely on using more skills (due to the extra mana, regen) to keep their lane.
Honestly, if it (and other choices) allows for Kha'zix to play safer in lane with more W harass, I'd take that over a Brutalizer and having to fight a hard bruiser top in melee range. Right now, I'd agree and say it doesn't really allow for that.
It should be noted that the primary reason to buy Bottle in DOTA2 is the ability to store runes (equivalent of ancient buffs) in it, so that when the rune is consumed, the Bottle is refilled to max charges. There's also the bottle-courier technique, in which you place the Bottle on the courier, send it back to fountain to refill and then have it deliver it to you again. While intensive, this is also a good way of getting the most out of the Bottle. Since neither of these alternate usages exist in League, it really just feels like glorified pots, although I wouldn't say it's pointless outright, since it's much cheaper in comparison (Bottle costs 600 gold and heroes start with 603 gold).
So patch is out? I'm scared to try to QW wraiths...
I'm sad to see it go but it was a good call.
It was ridiculously OP. Very good benefits for nearly all non-carry players, to the point that sometimes everyone would buy one. As a support, the 200 gold made a world of difference early on.
I'm sad to see it go but it was a good call.
Very nice, dude.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
I must be out of practice with Leona. Did terrible last night.
Support Shen is so annoying.
Support Shen is so annoying.
Yeah, the problem with it as support is that you're restricted to backing based on ward duration and additionally when your adc decides to buy. You also buy a lot of regen compared to other lanes so I find those two together reduce the need for pots in the first place. Might still try it as support anyway just to see how much more aggression it allows me with the extra mana. Then again, I don't have mana problems unless I'm taric and his harass is more bursty/all in and you don't stay long after it.
Picked him up when he was on sale a while back but haven't done much with him. What's your new build?
Yeah super HP Rengar rocks. It sucks Heart of Gold was removed as I've been using it to just gain a huge advantage over top lane but good things can't always last.
As you mention, it really depends on the support. Plus you have to think that supports will be more aggressive with the pickpocket perk and look to trade more often. As it is, I could easily see myself using Flask on champs like Leona (for regen after all-ins that don't get a kill), Lulu (more ability spam/harass), Sona (more ability harass/sustain for ally).
Additionally, supports don't get any natural sustain unless they have heals, so it could pay off even through the late game for prolonged objective dances. I think I'll end up starting Flask+Charm+Wards for most supports.
Really? I hated it in PBE, everything is so small and the buy button is so far away...
crackbabyjr
Member
Can you not double click to buy anymore?
The old store was a trainwreck trying to find anything. Now everything is categorized properly, there are meaningful categories and navigation is so much easier. Not to mention the search when all else fails. The item builds are also easier to read and follow.
There's champs on which you still want the mana or the ms, like Malphite or Naut.
Leona is one I would consider for sure. Although I would grab bead over charm for that setup.
Sona, I don't think I would need unless we were losing lane, which means I could play better instead of buying flask.
Don't play Lulu so no comment there
I'm pretty sure you can, but I like clicking the big BUY button better.
I'm not saying the older one was better, but this one's cramped and requires A LOT of scrolling.
I also really liked having the recommended items available all the time, because I just added my core builds there with the Enigma Item Changer thing, and now it's in a different tab.
The store needed an overhaul, but I god hate scrolling...
my build is irrelevant because i play in EUNE and we are still playing on the old patch.
but my core is warmog, spirit visage and bruta.
3% of 1000 mana, what the item gives, is .03x1000=30.
Cooldown on W is too long to sit back and effectively farm on someone like Kha'Zix. To farm you need to be aggressive and push them away from the front line. Manamune doesn't really let you do this because people can 1v1 you and push you out no problem. Most hard bruisers like Olaf or Irelia also have sustain, and won't be harassed down.
If we want to talk about giving him more mana for late/mid game I built Iceborn Gauntlet on him and it seems cool. The AP is a complete waste though. Unless you count the heal on his W I guess.
I think these champions will find it more valuable or fall behind champions who can heavily invest in the defensive tree. It is very rewarding to dump lots of points in Defense and grab the CDR and AS at the top of the Offense tree.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
It drain 30 mana, but does 60 damage, that doesn't include the champion's built in mana. Then again, you're post reminded me that it count your "current mana", so the damage will scale down as you cast spell/auto attack. 60 damage is still pretty good, if you compare it with wit's end, plus the bonus attack damage.
And it deals double that in damage or 60: .06 * 1000 = 60. It drains 3% of your Current Mana to deal 6% of your Current Mana (or double the mana drained) in Magic damage. This means you deal 6% of your CurrentMana and -3% Damage per hit. Hence my original numbers of 1000 Mana being 60 Damage on hit.
And, again, that ignores base Mana. Realistically speaking, this means you have closer to 2000 Mana to work with or 120 Damage on hit at a 3% loss per attack. If we want to look at it from a cost analysis, you need to get 100 total damage from this to compare it favorably to, say, BT. At 2000 total Mana, this means you have 20 AD (base) + 40 AD (Awe) so you only need Muramana's toggle to add 40 Damage ... which occurs at ~667 Mana. At any point above that, Muramana's total added damage is better than a BT.
Of course, we have some situations where it's not quite as cut and dry as that: Armor Penetration doesn't benefit Muramana. For non single-target skills, Muramana doesn't benefit them. Muramana has no synergy with Crit Chance.
What Muramana does do is it scales well with champs with single-target skills or low AD scaling on their skills. In those situations, it generally adds more damage per hit than most other options (e.g., BT) would assuming you can stay above 33% of your Mana pool. Which you probably will. It lacks the multiplicative scaling with Crit but it does scale with Attack Speed. If there is some build that perfectly synergizes with Muramana, it'll end up being some Muramana+ASPD build or a Muramana+Tank build.
I never said anything about farming with just W. More of being able to always use his W when it is up. That means every 8s to be able to spend 60/70/80/90/100 Mana. Kha'zix in lane can already do a decent enough damage fast enough with an Auto+Passive+Isolated Q that he can actually keep someone at bay with constant Ws once they're harassed down to 50-60%.
Like I said, though, Manamune isn't enough for that. And, even if it was, you'd still have to do enough damage to get into position to bully a lane with W and relying on W like that isn't his strong point anyway.
It used to be higher (4%/8%) but Ryze's burst combo got something like 500 bonus damage out of it. Now it's "only" around 350 for him.
If you average it out from full to zero, it still comes down to adding about 60 Damage on average (you tend to have 1000 Mana, or close enough, by level 18) per hit. That still makes it a better auto-attack damage value than, say Bloodthirster. Of course, it's at the cost of the sustain but that still leaves the option for, say, BotRK as your second damage item in a Muramana build.
If not for the absurd expense it would be to get it all, I'd love an ASPD Irelia build with Muramana + BotRK just to be hilarious with. Nidalee too, potentially.
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