i'd worry if jungle zilean showed up at lvl 1.
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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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Pointless. Early ganks are largely non-threatening. Just time your flash right in the worst case scenario.
'early ganks are not a threat, just trade flash for 60 mana'
yeah, how about my jungler shows up and the other guy burns his flash first.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Losing Flash early on can be a big loss man.
Wolf Akela
Member
Uh yeah. Burn your Flash. Jungler leaves then takes a quick U Turn back.
Shh dude that's like the jungler secret. Jesus.
Well despite the nerfs, Diana is still a strong S3 jungler. With an AP attackspeed runepage, my clear is just as good (if not a little better) than Lee Sin and she finishes with 2+ health pots left like Lee. Once she hits 6 her ganks are really good.
The ult and moonfall nerf are shit though. So many times I was JUST out of range of the ult for something as simple as dashing over a wall and the moonfall grab is pretty ugly now. You have to be RIGHT on top of them.
Still makes a good jungler though. I think she's my goto jungler now that Rengar has taken a stiff nerf bat.
I know they're both going to get a tweak upward again though so that makes me happy (and will make me ban Diana again if I'm not picking her).
The ult and moonfall nerf are shit though. So many times I was JUST out of range of the ult for something as simple as dashing over a wall and the moonfall grab is pretty ugly now. You have to be RIGHT on top of them.
Still makes a good jungler though. I think she's my goto jungler now that Rengar has taken a stiff nerf bat.
I know they're both going to get a tweak upward again though so that makes me happy (and will make me ban Diana again if I'm not picking her).
Losing Flash on the low level gank is the second worst possible outcome. Taking any damage at all is still a bad thing unless you have a lot of sustain (and being behind on pots vs your opponent kind of sucks). Considering how volatile many of the match ups are, getting behind a level here is pretty disastrous and changes the entire way you need to play the lane.
That said, I don't fear an Amumu Level 2 gank because he shouldn't be doing a Level 2 gank. This is one of the reasons I've started to like a Flask/5 Pot/Ward start, though. Gives me stupid amounts of sustain options and I can keep myself safe from a ~2:30 gank or a ~4:00 gank.
Her nerfs were more to weaken her in lane; her Jungle is almost unchanged. I guess that's one way to try to get her back to the Jungler they wanted.
As far as I can tell, the range wasn't changed (it's still 250). What was changed is the amount of vertical distance the champ is pulled (and/or the speed of the pull animation itself). It's lost about half of it's "stun" time.
Hmm. It sure seems smaller. The "pull" didn't seem changed much but perhaps I didn't notice. It was the first time playing her since the nerfs. The ult range nerf is really noticible though
edit: Re-read the patch notes. It's pretty ambiguous. Could be either. I suspect you're right though. If they nerfed the "range" of the spell it would say so. It used to pull them to the center even if on the fringe. Now perhaps they just pop back a little.
In all likelihood you will not lose out on Flash off early ganks, and early ganks like this are even weaker and less viable than they were before with the new jungle.
Feel free to keep wasting your time. A jungler who hangs out around a lane early game is very unlikely to get a kill, and you are just letting the enemy jungler get way ahead on gold and levels. I would only be afraid of level two ganks from very specific junglers who start red on my side of the map. But that is generally not that hard to watch for.
I just remember playing a post-nerf Diana game and landing E's at the same ranges. What I had noticed was how fast they were recovering from the E (about the same as Diana's cast time for it). Couldn't really use E as a means to buy ~1s for a cooldown and it was a lot less free damage time end-game (around one less free auto-attack for an ADC).
It's bugged occasionally that you have to wait until everyone chooses their champs before you can switch skins.
You give up too easily. An unsuspecting lvl 2 gank from either start will be enough to burn flash and possibly get a kill if the jungler is smart enough.
If the jungler doesn't have the kit for it, you can still easily rush Wo->B->R->Gank or Wr->R->B-> Gank for a quick lvl 3 gank where you should arrive in lane shortly after or before the laners reach lvl 2.
Axispowers
Member
I just started playing ranked and I don't have a banner. Im at around 1450 elo right now and I'm playing with silver,gold and the occasional platinum player. I am constantly getting harassed for not having a banner and it's really discouraging at this point. I normally play well but with my whole team "/all Unranked noob on team gg" I havea terrible time. I almost want to go back to the lower elo. It feels like the higher I climb the more people are commenting the unranked noob. How do you guys feel about the banner?
Axispowers
Member
Transformer Udyr... Take my money!!!!
Wolf Akela
Member
It's on a 5 minute cooldown, enough time to grab a few camps. No one said anything about staying in the bush. You forced the enemy laner to play more passively unless he started with wards. Your teammate can play more aggressively if he desires. If the enemy laner still does play aggressively, it's likely he'll push the lane a bit more.
No, I just know there are better ways to spend my time. I can count the number of viable level two gankers on one hand and there is nothing "unsuspecting" about them. It is super easy to escape early ganks right now and it isn't beneficial for most junglers to try it. Your timetables aren't even realistic. I don't even know what you guys are trying to argue.
Watching them bounce uselessly onto Spiderlings instead of players is perhaps the single greatest thing in the world in a team fight vs a Brand.
Then again, it's Brand.
Her skin was also bugged yesterday where I couldn't actually select it until a relog.
Even then, sometimes it's not even about them getting a kill or anything. Merely walking into lane and then disappearing into a river bush is enough to zone me from a few cs and give their top a short window to recompose and reset the lane. They don't even need to still be there. It also means that I have to be wary on abusing good Level 2s (e.g., Riven). Every blue side game I have to worry about what happens on a red start jungle when I'm trying to hit 2 before my opponent.
I don't fear a Level 2 gank if I'm playing, say, Kha'zix, Nidalee, or Elise* as they're all safe at low levels and get a good escape by Level 2 (Kha'zix and Elise E, Nidalee's just fast enough anyway with bush speed+traps). Early aggression on Riven or Fiora can be easily punished, though. Vi is in a similar, if not worse, spot as well.
*why you camp me for five minutes Vi?!
Yeah, arguing with you does tend to be a waste of time.
Wolf Akela
Member
Volibear could see some buffs in the future. I only played him like 4 times so I didn't know there was a delay on his ult.
Early game ganks aren't necessarily about being successful, they're about creating a presence in lane that forces opposing laner to adjust their playstyle. Even brief periods of exp/cs advantage can make a difference in the early lane outcomes. Your evaluation
is just far too binary. Hell even if I predict a gank and see it coming via ward bot it still forces me to alleviate my zoning actions on the opposing duo and thus gives them some benefit. Incremental advantages are valuable too.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Doesn't really matter, his overall kit is what's weak.
I feel like you're thinking too much in hypotheticals. Level 2 ganks on paper are generally shit, but they do work, especially if people are so dismissive of them and get caught out. You can make the argument that people who get caught are playing badly, but maybe they aren't - the enemy jungler could also just be playing unpredictably.
I think the best example of this was from ECC Poland when M5 Diamond camped the top river brush for like 40 seconds at an early level. Wickd knew he was there, but didn't think he'd wait so long and pushed forward, got ganked and killed. Diamond stayed in the brush, Wickd came back and went to put a ward in the brush and got killed AGAIN because he assumed Diamond would have gone back to his jungle. Sometimes doing unoptimal things ends up netting better than optimal results.
But you don't understand that you don't need to get the kill to make it a successful gank. Causing them to burn flash or a majority of their starting sustain is enough to begin the snowball in that lane. You say it'll cause you to fall behind their jungler but at the same time it forces their jungler to come top to equalize it, time their jungler spends that you can use to catch up and/or counter jungle.
If you suspect a level 2 gank from Lee Sin, but don't have it warded, what are you going to do? Zone yourself from cs until he should be doing blue or continue csing as normal?
I think this view is largely outdated and small minded. Look at the whole map. One jungler is still clearing, the other is standing around causing a lane to miss out on CS, which is not the end of the world.
Early ganks are based off of timings. This is binary and predictable. Clear the jungle and be in the right place at the right time to help lanes. Its not hard to identify where you will be useful in most situations.
In a teamfight maybe, but in a 1v1 the spiderlings will let the ult bounce back on Elise up to 3 times instead of fizzling out after 1 hit if there are no minions around.
Teamfight it shouldn't do that since the ult now prioritizes champs IIRC. I think I remember a quality of life buff to brand along those lines.
Poor brand
And all anyone else has said is that you need to be wary about early game ganks still since losing anything here (Flash, health, lane position) is enough to start the lane being snowballed against you. Nobody said anything about Level 2 ganks being ideal or the greatest threat. Just something to be conscious of. It's not always just about whether the gank gets a kill or not; just having to stymie early lane aggression (or getting punished for it) is a big deal.
Remember, this started off from discussing Vi getting E (and pushing the lane to use it) vs Q (for mobility/escape) at Level 1. E first means that, if you use it, you're going to get pushed up beyond the mid point and will be a gank target for a Red start. Or even a blue start for a ~4:00 gank time (e.g., the normal double buff gank timing).
I agree with you that, generally, most top laners can escape a Level 2 gank in a neutral lane (or slightly pushed, depending on the escape in question). That doesn't change the fact that I'll still be wary of them. I don't think anybody disagrees that they aren't the "best" course of action.
And the same could be said about thinking that this is about a Jungler camping that river bush for 25-30s. This could be as simple as appearing in lane and immediately leaving. In a zero ward scenario, you basically have no information here besides reading the enemy laner (where they can just fake the jungler there) or watch their rate of leveling.
Again, it's not about this being the huge deciding factor. It's about it being something that can occur to be wary of. If you only think about the best case scenario (e.g., 3:30, no ganks incoming since he should be doing X) then you'll miss what you should be doing: Reading your actual opponents.
If everyone followed the exact same time table, this could possibly work.
Edit: I just realized I don't play with you enough for the sarcasm to be fully realized. Level headed arguing, like what we have going here, is what breeds good discussion. I welcome it.
Standing around? When did I ever say you needed to stand around? Just showing your presence can create an incremental advantage, space for a lane to reset minions and lose pressure. Even if you have no plans to act on a lane you force the lane to react as if you will. Considering how well warded any well played game is you shouldn't ever have the advantage of surprise...what you do have is the advantage of presence. Its why lee is one of my least favorite junglers to deal with because his mobility gives you little time to take advantage even when he shows himself on the opposite side.
Edit: To follow up on what scy said: Its not an argument that a level 2 /3 gank is the best course of action, its that being aware of how it changes the game and having it as a tool in your arsenal. Jungler is the hardest role to solo queue properly because you ideally have to know the matchups in every lane at every stage of the game...and most people barely know the matchups for their own lane.
It gets pretty bad if they're missing CS and XP. If you really want to gank a second time you don't stand around. If you retreat into river, go to golems/wolves and then come back. If you retreat into lane, swing a U-turn into the river and hit them again real quick and then go farm up.
That may be so, but while beginning clears are predictable, the variety of them cover a large timespan of when you need to be wary of a jungler gank. Enough that if you're staying back being careful for all of them that you're really just setting yourself behind the entire time without any jungler input.
Don't let Bind hear you.
This is possibly as anecdotal as it gets. Guess what: you aren't Diamond.
Guess who else showing your presence gives an incremental advantage to? Every other lane on the map and the enemy jungler. You guys are focusing too much on the lane, and making too big of a deal out of missing three CS.
You are acting like coming up to lane guarantees the burned flash or you chunking them. I don't really know what else to say. Early ganks are just less common. Riot even outlined this as one of the goals for the new jungle. Even when they do come in the enemy jungler is weaker and less dangerous.
If they are going to miss the CS why bother being there physically? Even you are acknowledging that the threat of a gank is more important than the gank itself, so why bother unless you see an opening?
You're acting like every laner can be prepared for ganks and CS as normal w/o having to burn flash or get chunked. Any good jungler will be able to assess your escape abilities coupled with their own gap closers to see if they can actually make a 'successful' gank in the lane. If you're in the middle of the lane, but no escapes, I can totally force a flash or chunk you as you go to cs. I wouldn't try it if you had escapes from a rearfacing gank like Renekton or Jax unless I knew it was on cd or that you didn't level it.
Riot's goal only applies if you do a standard lvl 4 full clear. As it is now, you will be near enough to full HP if you gank immediately after Red or Blue.
No, I was only presenting a hypothetical to you on what you would do. Most people, myself included, continue to CS as normal. The threat of the gank isn't worth the setback at the beginning and is only apparent after the initial gank. No presence in lane means no fear of ganks.
Edit: Although I will agree that if they are setting themselves back in CS then yes, you do not need to be there, and instead should take that opportunity to get your double buff and gank an unsuspecting lane.
Edit 2: Forgot why we were pressing this point in the first place and Scy's post reminded me: The question about getting Q on Vi earlier or later because of jungle ganks or not. It's all meta and ever changing and based on what's happening in your game at whatever current point in time it is. To re-stipulate points, you say it's not worth it because early ganks aren't worth it. If I notice you don't have an escape ability and you cs as normal to keep up in lane, you're getting ganked. And yes, even amumu is scary at level 2/3. If I know you do have it (an escape), then I'll reconsider and probably not gank you. But making a blanket statement about never getting it early because you consider early lvl 2/3 ganks to not be viable is flat wrong.
Which, again, is missing the starting point of the argument. This did not begin as "is this gank worth it in the long run?" but about "Do I make sure I have my escape at Level 1 instead of a wave clear in the event of an aggressive Red start from their jungler?" It's since evolved from that, yes, but let's not forget the actual original point before we get into the long term cost of this kind of gank.
But, yes, every time the enemy Jungler shows themselves in a lane somewhere means the other lanes have freedom to be more aggressive and your own Jungler can counter jungle, counter gank, or do whatever else. The cost of a gank is pretty high and it needs some kind of payoff. This can be a kill or it could be setting the lane up for your Jungler needing to come later to fix the lane; this gives that same advantage back to the enemy team except at a later point where people are higher level.
More anecdotal points: I was camped hard in a game last night. This got them an eventual kill in lane, sure*, but the rest of their team died elsewhere. We got objectives from it. We abused the fact that the Jungler was always top rather than being useful elsewhere (and merc being smart enough to probably mute me after some point). It didn't really matter that I was behind eventually because they lost so much for it.
*They still lost lane. Because Elise.
Conversely, you're saying that every early gank will be avoided without any loss. The truth of the matter is somewhere in between. And, yes, Riot wanted less high health Level 4 ganks but the flow of games have been more smiteless Red/Blue starts (or still smited but damaged until ~500 Health) so the Jungler can still do a high health Level 2/3.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? I mean, this is precisely what we're saying. The threat of the gank is there so be wary. Acknowledge the risk. Make sure you have an escape. If the lane opponent zones themselves out of this, then the Jungler's job is done. Even if they aren't there.
But, yes, the Jungler should be there if there's an opening for a gank. If there isn't one (lane is neutral with all escapes available*, pushed towards their turret), then the Jungler really shouldn't try to force a gank opportunity. Otherwise it's a wasted effort or, worse yet, just giving up kills or positioning. I'm well aware of this. I've 2v1'd enough times off a dive or forced the Jungler to back after a failed Level 2 to know this; I've also lost lane because of my jungler coming at bad times and we try to force something we shouldn't.
*Not always a bad opportunity but hard to do/make a play off of early game without a hard CC in use.
Yeah... that Vi stayed up there wayy too long. All while she was up there she did the following before actually killing you: Leeched XP from their top. Let me gank bot for First blood on their support. Let me take her Blue. Let me gank bot yet again for a double kill to Urgot.
All said and done, we had 3 kills to their 1 and I was lvl 5 to Vi's lvl 3.
Wolf Akela
Member
New champ price schemes LOL.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Glad they're reducing them in a more timely fashion, but raising the IP price of new people to almost 8k IP is gross.
She came at Level 3.
I finally died because they went all-in with Vi's ult.
That was at the seven minute mark.
Edit: Or maybe that was my second death? I definitely remember that one since I derped the Rappel -> Flash (kneejerked to Human -> Cocoon) and the string of expletives at it since Vi was still in that fucking bush.
It was an Irelia lane, too. Not sure why Vi decided she needed that much help. Then again, LB came top at some point too after Vi got chased off so I guess they just really hate spiders.
New champ price schemes LOL.
To be honest, I really like this. :x
Only with the recent champs have I been buying bundles, but that's because the skins are ohsogood. My normal route for buying champs is waiting til free week to try them out and if I like them I get them. So this doesn't affect me on new champs. Older champs though, I occasionally try and get the hang of them, and seeing a 6300 IP tag really makes me sad.
New champ price schemes LOL.
Gotta get more bundle sales.
Everything else about it is nice though.
davidpdong
Member
URGOT DABBLE KILLLL
I tried to swing back into corki and I think TForce - Bcleaver/Bthirster is the best option.
Muramana - Not the best option unless you get FB. You're likely to lose your lane if first buy they come back with dorans and you have a tear. Plus you can't really charge it till lvl 6.
I want to run Kogmaw again but I don't want to ask my team to build a comp around me.
I tried to swing back into corki and I think TForce - Bcleaver/Bthirster is the best option.
Muramana - Not the best option unless you get FB. You're likely to lose your lane if first buy they come back with dorans and you have a tear. Plus you can't really charge it till lvl 6.
I want to run Kogmaw again but I don't want to ask my team to build a comp around me.
Inskipp
Member
New champ price schemes LOL.
Seeing as I don't buy champs at release anymore, this suits me fine. I don't like the new 7k price- tag though.
davidpdong
Member
Yeah, it was straight 2, not 3; you're right. I don't think I died to that one though. I do remember walking up after about a minute of playing passive near turret and Vi sauntered out of the bush to Q me.
Only noteworthy because I had the river warded so I knew when she walked into it. I never saw her leave it but, hey, it had been a minute so she definitely bac--WHY IS SHE HERE PUNCHING ME.
Basically. She set scy back nominally (which I quickly reset with some camping) and lost her bot lane so hard because she just stood around in that river brush like a baddie.
You didn't die from the lvl 2, but she stayed in the brush outside of ward coverage instead of backing and wasted her time to do it. I was actually in mid lane on my way up to reset you when she showed up the second time, which is when I said fuckit and took her blue instead to set her behind big time. The timing of that also let me gank bot for the double.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Never bought a 6300 IP champ, looks like I won't have to.
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