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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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Lone_Prodigy
Member
Zyra support is pretty interesting. Love the snare.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
There's an unreleased one that's been in the data files since the middle of last year
Bladestorm
Legato.Reborn-
Member
you crack my shit up blizzard
well make it so that pauses last at least 30 seconds, everyone gets 3, can't use a pause more than once every 10 minutes per player
not that hard
seems like my wireless adapter in my laptop is broken, looks like I'll never get over 1600 elo now.
or why dont we just make BF swords 475 gold so everyone can instakill each other a few dozen times by the ten minute mark. flask/pots rewards consistency, it lets people confident in their ability leavy a risk for an item advantage and it gives people prone to harass or in a bad matchup an additional lease on their lane so they dont get quickly 0/1'd and spend the rest of the laning phase paying for it.
all these junglers just mad that they have to find other advantages to take when safe options exist.
The whole game is stupid right now. Today I played top lane in the longest time. Know what i built up there in the first 15minutes?
Nothing.
I got boots and stacked pots and wards. Didn't even matter my opponent had two long blades or dorans over me because I just pot and poked them until i could kill them while i healed all their harrass.
Same thing goes for mid. Sustain and farm farm farm farm farm.
Right now, I feel like the game no longer gives you an incentive to build items. Instead it encourages infinite sustaining for late game. The nerf to flask isn't going to change anything too.
And bot lane is just stupid now. It no longer feels like bot lane anymore. I mean there is almost no more poking if you're playing alone because of how cheap BF sword is. And since all the adc items have been nerfed and the age of assassins is here, you just want to farm like hell and get a BT at 14minutes or an IE at 18 minutes so you can carry mid game with a few crits/burst from skills. I use to almost never die outside of laning so i would never get GA until it was my 6th item. Now, i have to rush it as my 4th item after my attack speed item because it's impossible to survive team fights if the enemy are smart.
Nothing.
I got boots and stacked pots and wards. Didn't even matter my opponent had two long blades or dorans over me because I just pot and poked them until i could kill them while i healed all their harrass.
Same thing goes for mid. Sustain and farm farm farm farm farm.
Right now, I feel like the game no longer gives you an incentive to build items. Instead it encourages infinite sustaining for late game. The nerf to flask isn't going to change anything too.
And bot lane is just stupid now. It no longer feels like bot lane anymore. I mean there is almost no more poking if you're playing alone because of how cheap BF sword is. And since all the adc items have been nerfed and the age of assassins is here, you just want to farm like hell and get a BT at 14minutes or an IE at 18 minutes so you can carry mid game with a few crits/burst from skills. I use to almost never die outside of laning so i would never get GA until it was my 6th item. Now, i have to rush it as my 4th item after my attack speed item because it's impossible to survive team fights if the enemy are smart.
IsayFever
Member
Submit thyself to the Twisted Treeline
you're always afk when i want to play treeline :|
IsayFever
Member
I've been sick and sleeping randomly these past 2 days
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
PhillipCostigan
Member
I like the Kayle art.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
I am not asking for the game to become a killfest. I like a lot of what has come with Season 3, but there's other stuff about it I am just not big on. I don't want there to be a "safe option". I don't want people to look at the item list and see nothing valuable enough at level one that they just stack these consumables. Frankly it is even less interesting than when people started boots, because at least then players were one step closer to building the items that will have an impact on their champion. Now players are set even further back as they farm up.
This is just patently untrue. Even as a jungler I don't play early gank oriented champions, but it is much more exciting to have those opportunities if they make themselves available. You are talking about finding other advantages but what are you realistically going to do? Walk through a ward to go counter jungle and gain almost nothing? There are fewer options for junglers and laners.
One of the reasons I cannot play Lulu top anymore is because harass oriented champions have fallen off the map. What is the point to it when people will just be able to heal through it? It's awful.
I know how you feel. They changed the sustain from innate to some champs to everyone. It's almost silly NOT to buy masses of pots and flask for your first buy. The sustain is far more valuable than the extra 20 movespeed.
So now instead of boots+3 being the normal, it's a ward, a flask and 5 pots. Or if you don't have mana, it's a ward and 9 pots.
Champs like Kassadin used to be vulnerable early game because you could out sustain them. Poke, gank and make their run to 6 a hellish one to get that advantage. Now they just chug pots.
Assassins are hugely powerful. Armor doesn't do anything when you have BC, LW and armor pen runes.
Doublelift made a post on facebook along the same lines
http://www.facebook.com/CLGDoublelift/posts/407863505961619
Hopefully Riot takes a look at it.
I feel weird since I find Flask/Pot starts promote more aggression in top lane. It makes top lane a more Champion kit dependent game for Levels 1-6 (/Levels 1-ForcedBackToBuy). Champions with good all-in harasses can take the opportunities and sustain back and come out ahead in their trades. Granted, maybe it's just all the bad players we're up against but I tend to have no trouble forcing something to have happened in top lane by Level 3 or 6.
Of course, that's when we're looking at two Champions with good early games. Ones who want to be at least somewhat aggressive. Weaker early game champs are hard to force out of hiding and they'll just sustain their way into when their kits come alive. But, it's not hard to still force an item advantage over them. Or to recognize what they want and try to force them to not be able to hide.
If both sides have a Flask, it's about who uses it better. Sustain doesn't completely negate aggression by itself.
I do kind of wish Flask was 380 Gold for 125 Health/65 Mana. That is, no Ward without a Mastery change. Movement, Sustain, and Vision are the early game priorities as nobody cares about raw stats for the super early levels. We got the movement for free and can get the other two without a sacrifice.
Here's the thing. Flask - 5 Pots - Ward will become Flask - 2 Pots - Ward. This means we go from 1050 Health, 120 Mana to 660 Health, 180 Mana. A loss of 2.6 pots worth of Health. I can't remember the last time I didn't back with around two pots left. ~700 Health worth of sustain is about where it's needed. This gives you essentially a second health bar worth of HP. The Mana gain is pretty significant too for the champs who could use it. Honestly, if the goal was to make Flask start weaker, raising the cost while also giving more HP/Mana isn't really going to cut it. It probably needs a mechanics change the most or a significant cost change.
At best, this Flask change hurts support (no Flask + 4 Ward start, at best Flask + 2 Ward start) and oddballs like my Kha'zix page (no Flask + Cloth start).
It also hurts my Twisted Treeline Vi build (Flask, Cloth, Cloth), not that anybody gives a shit about that I guess. T.T
okay
Wait, does this mean I have to play Wukong?
He better get a skin on sale soon or I refuse.
I need to practice the shit out of him. I'm never where I need to be to immediately ER. I need to make a list of champions I must practice and just spam them. So far, Wukong and general ADC mechanics (aka, don't play Caitlyn) are on my list; I guess Zed just to have a backup for whenever Kha'zix gets nerfed, though they'll probably get hit around the same time and in similar fashions.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
They should change Pots to something like HoN, where attack will cancel out the effect of pot. Defensive item like this shouldn't be allow to be use as harassment tool.
I do agree flask + 7 pot start is really dumb, thanks to that champions with weak early game like ryze, kass, and vlad have a lot easier time than before. Forcing people to waste 3 pots were hard enough already back in season 2. You had to land 70%of your skillshot or you will go OOM, now the only way to force someone back is stack mana pot and trying to outspend their health pot.
What is RPJ, I don't want to google it at work lol.
I think the argument here then would be people would be even more passive in lane. Personally, I see it as opening up an adding an extra cost to trying to sustain in lane: Having to play even safer to actually heal up.
This, however, makes ranged vs melee just that much more annoying to play in lane. Have to zone yourself out of fear of your pots being wasted as a melee. I'd be that much more aggressive against melees in lane if I know that I can actively make them waste gold (/charges), rather than just undoing what they heal.
A true terror.
PhillipCostigan
Member
I think I'm officially finished with blind pick. Having to dodge nearly every game or lose because of insta-locking fuckheads really sucks.
There's just no point even trying to call lanes anymore. You say top first and someone just insta-locks a top champ. I don't mind not playing the role I originally want to play, if someone alls it first that's cool. I can play any role. I'm just not going to play with people who lock in instantly, especially if they do it and take the lane I called.
Plus in draft I can ban Teemo. Not because he's difficult to play against, just so I can stop my team mates insta-locking him. And Xin.
There's just no point even trying to call lanes anymore. You say top first and someone just insta-locks a top champ. I don't mind not playing the role I originally want to play, if someone alls it first that's cool. I can play any role. I'm just not going to play with people who lock in instantly, especially if they do it and take the lane I called.
Plus in draft I can ban Teemo. Not because he's difficult to play against, just so I can stop my team mates insta-locking him. And Xin.
For what it's worth, I never ulted at max range anyway.
THE SCOUT'S CODE.
You just don't appreciate being a man.
PhillipCostigan
Member
its not about being valuable in level one, bit's about being valuable in your first back. The safe option losses to item plays if you can keep the gold advantage your item represents.
Now, like Scy says it will be somewhat kit dependant. Champions with a lot of natural sustain will have an easier time starting without pots. an irelia might risk a sword/2 pots for an early brutalizer because her w can heal her. a ranged champion vs a gap closing melee might rather have boots. a champion in a somewhat awkward lane might want a cloth armour, etc. The options are all there.
If you have a situation where you can take an advantage of someone starting pots, why not do so?
most junglers have always had to suffer under the burden of buying lots of pots in the early game to keep themselves stocked up for ganking and not being executed, seeing more consumables in lane means that gold disadvantage junglers suffered under is now smaller. I see a stronger focus on consumables in lanes as a way for junglers to gain item advantages in the absence of more gold. [two of the camps get robbed regularly anyway]
So i'd like to see junglers that can itemize into midgame monsters and a focus on co-ordinated disruption of those junglers. I'd like a 2-3 man blue denial to be more valuable than the time spent in lane CS. strong junglers that grow beefy with items and buffs that can gain a gold advantage over lanes without increasing the gold value of camps.
basiclally I want to live in that mystical fantasy world where junglers can blame their lanes for not ganking enough.
knowing nothing about lulu tops and how dependant she is on xp advantages, i'd suggest using your harass as an excuse to buy 2-3 less pots and just pocketing that starting gold for your first back. that's basically as valuable as driving a creep wave into a tower.
Randomly speccing top games, first thing I see:
And guess what, it's everywhere. Even some Irelia was running it. Running Sword/2 pots versus someone who effectively has twice as much health as you is not reasonable. Nobody gives a shit about your ten extra damage or your slightly faster brutalizer when they will just heal through it anyways, and you are not going to see a gank come in to help because guess what, they can easily ward too.
You are not losing out on buying full pots. You can easily go through them throughout the game and make them valuable or worthwhile and Flask easily pays for itself. Starting with stats instead of consumables just means the enemy laner can push you out and outlevel you, and honestly that is a bigger advantage than any of the awful early game items.
Junglers are not catching up. Machete is a gold sink that keeps them behind laners when it comes to fights, and it is often a necessity to clear fast enough. There are no junglers that itemize into "midgame monsters" and honestly it is like a joke that you are bringing them up with the current jungle gold yields.
Lulu does not have the base stats to survive in top lane well at level one. While I appreciate your attempt to offer advice she is dead as a solo lane because of the massive and unnecessary cost increase to attack speed as well as the item removals and changes that looped crit and attack speed to always go hand in hand. Her early game is worse. Her mid game is worse. Her late game is worse. There is no reason to play her anymore.
Beyond that, Flask is always nice to have during the game. Yes, you may not need potions after a certain point anyway but Flask is still nice to have when it has no slot cost. Undoing an auto attack per use, or getting one skill's worth of mana back, is a nice thing to keep around for no cost. Any "delay" it has on builds is negligible.
Hell, I'd say that arguing that Flask delays builds would be the same as saying buying Wards delay builds.
Not to say I wouldn't mind it if item starts were more "items building into something" things but ... eh? I'd Cloth5 basically every top lane matchup otherwise. "Living longer" tends to offer more at small gains. That is, dealing 10 more damage doesn't matter as much as living for an entire extra round of attacks.
While I agree with the point, Irelia should probably stick to Flask or Cloth5 :x Helps her rather bad early game a lot.
And LS start doesn't add that much, honestly.
Personally, I view Flask charges (and potions) as their currency in lane. He who goes broke first tends to lose. I'm always keeping an eye on the amount of charges/pots they have left to use and decide around it. I don't do nothing because they can sustain, I look for an opportunity to make them use more than me.
You don't beat Vlad or Nidalee in lane by doing nothing because they can heal.
It'd be nice for Junglers to get enough gold from Jungling to be a threat while also having the Jungle not be a target for laners. Just need more tweaks and we'll see. Hopefully, anyway.
I can't comment on Lulu top itself but I can about Nidalee as a harassment laner. You still harass every possible opportunity you get, even if they can just heal it off. It's still making them use an item they bought instead of reselling it for 14g* or saving it for a time when they can use it after trading favorably. Causing a potion to be used for absolutely nothing is still a good thing. If you have more sustain than them, hooray!
Which I guess comes to the bigger point: The fact that early lane is really about who has the most sustain / best uses their sustain. Some don't like it but I enjoy it.
*I really wish potions didn't sell back for anything, honestly. Flask resale value should also be a lot less.
Edit: I guess here's the question then: What do you ideally want? Sustain starts to be more costly? Stat item starts to do more? How do these two even work out? How do you make sustain starts less worth it (short of removing Flask)? How do you make stat items do more?
The truth of it is that better longevity in lane is the best option, regardless of how it works out. Whatever lets you stay there longer and get more chances to farm and more chances to try to outplay your opponent, the better. Flat out getting more sustain is the best way to go about this.
If they had no options for sustain and had the same item options as you then all of your harass or trade would be more effective.
PhillipCostigan
Member
I'm ok with the flask and pots start, mainly because it helped me survive against Malz mid. Malz is the bane of my life.
I realize it neuters jungle ganks the most, but in solo queue, I don't like having to rely on my jungler for the first 10 mins.
If both of us took Doran's I'd have to play more passively since I can't all in and allow their jungler to just come clean up.
I don't know what the best solution is, but a few more starting options would be nice I suppose.
Which is basically what any decent player would do, really. You have sustain options to be more aggressive. You deal with sustain options by forcing them to use it. It's about each side using them properly. Removing the option does up the stakes for the same situation but that situation doesn't exist without that option.
Which means everyone would be a lot more scared of taking any damage. Ranged/safe poke would become even more important. Built-in sustain options at a greater advantage. Absolutely no sustain options from the beginning would make for the least interesting games.
I think the ideal case for Flask right now would be:
125 Health, 65 Mana over 15 (maybe 20) seconds. 380+ Gold cost. Flask/Ward isn't an option anymore, a Ward start will require Potion/Ward instead (or different Masteries). 380 Gold Flask would mean Flask + 2 Pots is still possible though so you can just wait out the 5 gold for the Ward. The slower regen also results in basically every non-ult CD will be available once the heal actually goes through. Plus, it indirectly makes Potions a better option if only for the faster healing.
On top of that, limit potions to a stack of 3 or 5. Maybe even remove the ability to buy potions individually and have it be in max stack only bundles. This would mean not using a potion in lane leading to being unable to purchase another stack. Not sure how viable that option even is, just something that came to mind.
Basically, provide the sustain start still but limit the effect. Unsure if this actually changes anything besides weakening the best option, though. We'll see how things work out with Flask + Ward + 2 pots for the time being.
And people looked at me funny when I said Flasks would be amazing :x
Who knows. Maybe 11 Pots + Ward was the best start for Season 2 as well but we didn't know! However, I feel it's a bit different just because of the mobility change allowing for it. But, something about that doesn't seem quite right either...
You should be afraid of taking damage. Consumable based sustain starts simply delays the start of the real game and minimizes how meaningful the laning phase is. Farm is the most important thing. There were plenty of champions that got by on three pots before and the early game then seemed much more eventful.
The funny thing about the flask nerf is that it may not even change the game for me personally that much. Depending on how successful my zoning/trades were, I usually had 2-4 pots left over meaning I should've just saved my gold. So in a way, the change is a buff if you aren't normally using all 5 pots before first back anyway.
To be fair I only looked at you funny because I barely break even with flask starts. I still only use like 1-2 pots more once my ROI has broken even with flask, getting flask or not is like giving up a ward or not.
In regards to S2, yeah I can only imagine that flask just introduced the concept and nobody else had ever thought to 12 pot+ ward start as opposed to boots + 3. The mobility change shouldn't really affect anything because even with a difference of 50 ms, you should still be able to trade evenly when any trading occurs.
edit: laning-wise anyway. It was a big big change when you throw jungle ganks into the formula.
What it does do is nerf its efficiency. With the new nerf it's almost to a point where it's better to just buy pots with your flask money since the rate of healing is the same.
Youtch.
Another reason why I need to get my ranked grind in now while I can still get freelo.
While true, there comes a point where it becomes too detrimental that it stagnates play. If we removed Flask and potion starts but kept the gameplay as it is right now, I'd appreciate the game just the same. But, without that sustain, that kind of playing wouldn't happen. Or it would under a narrower selection of champions.
Or maybe I'm wrong on all counts. It is, after all, a lot of what-if posturing really. :/
While I get your point, I don't really think it delays the start of the "real" game. Consumables don't really make the early game a foregone conclusion and it still lends itself to making things happen.
Yeah. There's a good chance that most people won't really care. Sometimes, I stayed in lane longer because I still had potions left over and ended up not getting the most out of an advantage I created. I may just play smarter due to it anyway.
Pfft, I use the shit out of my Flask. Granted, like five of those charges reflect a purchased Potion but, goddamnit, Flask charges everywhere!
Hard to say, y'know? We'll never really know but I'd like to think it was due to "THAT much mobility cannot be given up" coupled with greater chances of ganks. Realistically, I'd say the fact that an early Ward closes off "the" gank timing early game also helps the Sustain + Ward start immensely compared to Season 2.
Old Flask - 37.3 Gold per Flask Charge (23.3 from HP, 14 from Mana). 3 Charges was worth about 50% the cost of the Flask (~112G/225G).
New Flask - 49 Gold per Flask Charge (28 from HP, 21 from Mana). 3 Charges are now worth about 43% the cost of the Flask (~147G/345G).
Edit: Basically also shifts more of the value to the Mana half of it which makes it more focused towards "doing something in lane" with the gold spent. The less mana hungry your Champion is (/the less Mana you actively use in lane), the less Flask is really doing.
Me too! I just only use like.. 9 charges total :x Once midgame rolls around the 300 hp gained over 30 seconds only really serves to top me off if I'm near full. Burst damage is enough at that point that if 300 hp is going to save me it'll be faster to go back and heal it instead of staying on the map.
But you get early wards in both versions! :<
Gotta find it's resale value too before we can say anything!
Even without that, we should be comparing potion costs. Given the new efficiencies, it looks like it increases the amount of potions you'd need to use over the course of the game to break even (~6 instead of 4).
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