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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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PhillipCostigan
Member
Agreed with Boken.
Also, in relation to attack speed: 3% per level to level 9 = 24% + 4% from masteries = 28% + 20% from Bezerker's = 48%. So yeah, pretty much 1 attack per second at 9.
Also, in relation to attack speed: 3% per level to level 9 = 24% + 4% from masteries = 28% + 20% from Bezerker's = 48%. So yeah, pretty much 1 attack per second at 9.
Schmattakopf
Member
"It helps all her abilities and lifesteal." It's 20 extra AD if you max it first. You're sacrificing four ranks for 20 AD.
IsayFever
Member
Depends on the team comp
no way mang (bringing it back to gaf level champ discussion)
If you can straight up fight somebody, why would you max Q then?
W gains as much damage per rank as soon as you hit the riposte on them. Not to mention the bonus 6 damage on Q per rank of W and the +20 damage you get from the 3-4 autos as they run away from you
Im not saying you should aways max W, and you can feel free to keep maxing Q. I'm just pretty sure myself that W is much more effective for top lane trading since it just synergises so much better with her kit
max Q first - gain 200 damage on Q
max W first - gain 200 damage on W, 24 on Q, 48 on ult, +20 per auto (and her E is an AA reset) - and that's just in a burst window. think of all the AA trading youll be doing before it!
W gains as much damage per rank as soon as you hit the riposte on them. Not to mention the bonus 6 damage on Q per rank of W and the +20 damage you get from the 3-4 autos as they run away from you
Im not saying you should aways max W, and you can feel free to keep maxing Q. I'm just pretty sure myself that W is much more effective for top lane trading since it just synergises so much better with her kit
But riposte damage!
max Q first - gain 200 damage on Q
max W first - gain 200 damage on W, 24 on Q, 48 on ult, +20 per auto (and her E is an AA reset) - and that's just in a burst window. think of all the AA trading youll be doing before it!
IsayFever
Member
What's your thoughts on Wendy's square burgers?
it's too crazy
IsayFever
Member
You're too crazy. They are delicious
team chogath likes bulwark and shurelia
Nobody builds Frozen Heart on any champion anymore.
IsayFever
Member
Spicy chicken too good. Fuck it, I'm going to Wendy's
Seriously. Like look at these two items and tell me buying Frozen Heart makes sense.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Randuin's_Omen
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Frozen_Heart
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Randuin's_Omen
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Frozen_Heart
IsayFever
Member
vs
Mana / CDR / More base armour + aura. I'd take that on most mana based tanks over Randuins anyday
Not many people get ASPD from Offense for her (Ignite/Ghost Mastery + 3/4 CDR) and very rarely do you get Berserker's for her in a lane you haven't snowballed hilariously out of control. At that point, it won't really matter what you're doing to be honest.
Because they won't sit still for the fight so you want Q up more often. Fiora will not 100-0 in a single engage, generally speaking (unless you really do get to pursue them for basically the whole lane). She has no slow and her pursuit is basically wrapped up in her skills being off cooldown. Getting her Q more often means you get more opportunities to do your damage.
W is conditional on them hitting you (with an auto-attack). Most people vs Fiora know to not get baited by a Riposte.
Q triggers her passive and Burst of Speed MS% on-hit. W does what it needs to do (free AD, block an attack) at one-point and the cooldown for it isn't as bad as Qs. This isn't that Riposte is a bad skill or anything, just that you get more out of Q and E getting maxed than you do W.
Conditional 200 damage on W being triggered (which is ironically easier against ranged than melees). The +5-20 AD from Ranks 2-5 aren't as big of a deal as increasing your opportunities to actually get in melee range with her Q.
Schmattakopf
Member
W damage is magic and it scales with AP, and you have armour penetration and AD, so it's definitely not the same damage. And most importantly, it's not even guaranteed because it's defensive. In my experience, Q damage seems to make a difference early game, where W damage is negligible at all stages.
zky's Cho'Gath like Rab's and Iceborn Gauntlet for the eatsing nomnomnom
Maybe the new Zhonya's will retain the passive like an Archangel Staff.
Yeah for some reason I thought the boost was temporary, like every time you kill a minion you get 5 seconds of extra AP/armor but with those stats it'd make no sense.
Maybe the new Zhonya's will retain the passive like an Archangel Staff.
Hmm, I think I did well by returning her. I never could firmly grasp Riven's playstyle.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Well maxing it first gives you an extra 20 AD over 1 point.
Not checking my runes now, but I know with them if I start W I have 85 AD at level 1. So about 110 at 9 with no items. Add a BT and Hydra and that's up to 255 AD without the Bloodthirster charged and 22% life steal. that's 56 health per hit. 4 charges on her passive at 9 = 56 health over 7 seconds, combined and at 1 hit per second that's 64 health per second.
Add the extra 20 AD from a maxed W and then it's 60.5 per hit plus 56 over 7 seconds, and at 1 hit per second combined that's now 68.5 health per second.
and maxing Q doesn't help keep her passive up. The cooldown is 8 seconds on it, whereas your passive runs for 7. By the time the cooldown on your Q is up, even if you max it first, your passive is already off.
Cho'gath is a free mana machine. The passive/active on Randuin's is way better. If you want CDR there are better alternatives like Visage or even Nashor's Tooth/Gauntlet.
IsayFever
Member
I wasn't being cho specific.
I dont think you can stack it after upgrading to Zhonya's, but it only takes 30 cs to fully stack it and you'll need a lot more to afford Needlessly Large Rod + recipe.
Okay. Who still targets FH instead of health stacking?
PhillipCostigan
Member
@Scy it's seems from what you're saying the main rationale yo have for maxing your Q is all to do with reducing its cooldown, which seems crazy to me.
For me, the extra AD on W means a much bet synergy with her kit. It just works so well with pretty much all her abilities. It's not worth the max on Q for me with how I play, i.e. farm and then destroy them in a 1 v 1. Sure, I may not burst them in one go, but I'll either force them to back, waste their flash or more. Then I'll get ahead and I will burst them in one go, or I have enough farm to burst their carry in one go.
Generally, pretty much any top laner can out harass Fiora. She's not that type of champion.
For me, the extra AD on W means a much bet synergy with her kit. It just works so well with pretty much all her abilities. It's not worth the max on Q for me with how I play, i.e. farm and then destroy them in a 1 v 1. Sure, I may not burst them in one go, but I'll either force them to back, waste their flash or more. Then I'll get ahead and I will burst them in one go, or I have enough farm to burst their carry in one go.
Generally, pretty much any top laner can out harass Fiora. She's not that type of champion.
IsayFever
Member
Amumu, Ryze, Nautilus can go either way, Malphite can go either way, Elise can build it with no negative impact to her damage, Maokai goes either way, Voli can build it with no negative impact as well.
It's a shorter list than Randuins for sure, but still some use to be had from the item. To write it off as "bad" is very short sighted
Forgot Galio works quite well with it.
She's very all-in and lane control oriented. It's fairly easy to bully a lane with her but coming back (against a smart opponent) is fairly hard once she's behind in items. Then again, she scales with items really well and does a lot of damage so it's possible to just turn the tables when given the opportunity.
56 over 6 seconds. Which isn't that much better but still.
As for 85 AD @ Level 1, that's most likely with AD runes. Personally, I'd rather run ArPen since the free AD from her W essentially matches what you lose from runes for the ArPen.
As for the Life Steal numbers, that's a little misleading. 20 AD from Maxed W means you get an extra 4.4 Health per hit over not maxing W (@22% LS%). The rest of the numbers merely argue about why her passive is kind of bad as the game progresses.
That's not what I meant. I mean that you use Q to hit Champions to get up to 4 stacks more often. If you're just always going all-in and sitting there fighting it out without any kiting and/or disengaging going on, I suppose this is irrelevant. Fights in top lane with Fiora generally don't work this way, however.
Reducing the cooldown (and upping the damage) on your gap closer means more opportunities to engage and more damage when you do engage.
Her passive and kit in general is all about quick in and quick out kind of play.
Edit: If you're just sitting back and farming and using your W to deter engagements then, yes, you'll get more out of her W. I play Fiora with more aggression in lane and look to take a Q-AA harass opportunity every cooldown. I play to control my lanes and to force outside help to free the map up from the enemy jungler (and/or countergank opportunities).
Malphite?
Yeah I just don't think I got the personality for top lane. I did well with Jax but I just like ranged champions better and, you know, pretty spells
How is she trading better with a rank higher than 1? You gain minimal damage and cooldown on it. You do get the attack damage, but it's effect is minimal. It's main damage boost, and negating of a hit is all gained at rank 1.
IsayFever
Member
He seems to keep forgetting he has that spear.
Yeah I just don't think I got the personality for top lane. I did well with Jax but I just like ranged champions better and, you know, pretty spells
GIANT SWORD THAT SHOOTS DEATH.
Edit: But, yeah, top lane is a harsh place at times. I need to play more top lane, though. I think my hidden elo is back up to Plat/Diamond area so I need the practice I guess. Plus, gotta play that Thresh top lane gggggg
Surprisingly good so far, though 98% of that is nobody knows what the fuck he does
I wouldn't build FH on any of those champions with the exception of maybe Ryze. If you are looking for armor you have Sunfire and/or Randuin's. Both are far better choices and you aren't going to need more armor than those provide. I do think Frozen Heart is a bad item that only works its way into builds because people are less familiar with newer CDR alternatives.
I can't believe Fnatic is on the verge of dropping out. I still like Fnatic's late game though - Nidalee AS buff + Nunu AS buff + Kog = damage machine.
Re: Fiora skill order - just max R, derr.
Max "Let me farm to Hydra" first. Then show up late to teamfights and freePentas.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Yeah, quick in and out as in I get in, kill them quick and get out
I just don't think the damage you get on one ability and the lower cooldown on one ability is worth sacrificing massive kit synergy and lower level trade potential.
I just don't think the damage you get on one ability and the lower cooldown on one ability is worth sacrificing massive kit synergy and lower level trade potential.
Alternate vs Fnatic. What a gooooooood game. Win or go home time.
http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/new
http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/new
Looks like Fnatic clawed their way back into the game.
Yeah, quick in and out as in I get in, kill them quick and get out
I just don't think the damage you get on one ability and the lower cooldown on one ability is worth sacrificing massive kit synergy and lower level trade potential.
W doesn't give you bigger trade though, Q does, and gives you more opportunities to trade.
You get in with Q, trigger your W if they take the bait, trade a couple hits with your E, then run the fuck out.
W isn't going to give you more trade, you're not going to auto them enough for that bonus AD to shine. It only adds 6 damage per rank to your Q.... which is on a 16 sec cooldown which is HUGE.
Q is your gapcloser and situational escape, having it on 16 seconds is unacceptable.
I don't know where you're getting this "massive kit synergy" from W from.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Man dat team fight. Great match.
What CDR alternatives are these? If you want armor + CDR FH does it best. You still need a second CDR item past SV if you want to get close to 40%. Randuin's active was good when it was AS% as well, but now it's only MS, which was a pretty huge nerf for it. The passive only applies if they attack you as the tank, which means you're the last one standing or they're playing the fight wrong. FH's aura actively reduces the AS of multiple champions the entire fight.
Edit: I guess there's Frozen Fist too, but you aren't getting that on guys like Naut/Amu
Yeah, quick in and out as in I get in, kill them quick and get out
I just don't think the damage you get on one ability and the lower cooldown on one ability is worth sacrificing massive kit synergy and lower level trade potential.
Aren't you negating the whole point of your W giving you better dps if your in and out is quick? You should re-evaluate Q's DPS to the amount of time you're actually on them for your in & out, i.e. if you stick on them for 4 seconds and back off then it's 280/4 instead of 280/8.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Kit synergy as in the extra damage on your Q, the higher damage riposte, more damage per hit with your E and extra damage per hit on your ult, as well as the extra health gained from the life steal.
That kit synergy, as opposed to higher damage on one ability and a lower cooldown.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Fnatic. Wow.
Holy shit. Yellowstar OP.
Holy shit. Yellowstar OP.
Should only really stick for 3 seconds since that's her E duration :x
Q is, to paraphrase this guide on the matter, the glue that binds her kit together however. Q is what lets you do things with your kit. Maneuver through the lane, pursue an opponent, etc. etc.
And ~43% of her W bonus is in the first point. That's most of the synergy from it right there. Is Rank 5 W better than Rank 1? Well, yeah. I just disagree that it's the best part of her kit.
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