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[FieryBalrog]

It's also funny how the guy says

" We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma’s abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time."

After reading "drastically different ways" I started reading the abilities and that's when I realized Riot has a different understanding of "drastically" and "different" than I do.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

yeah missed that line.

I really wanna know what happens if I snipe him.

You snipe him, he blows into 4 pieces, then it's a race to kill the pieces before he revives and bounces away laughing.

...this is gonna be fun.

 

[kayos90]

drastically enhance might've been more apt yeah....

 

[PhillipCostigan]

It's also funny how the guy says

" We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma’s abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time."

After reading "drastically different ways" I started reading the abilities and that's when I realized Riot has a different understanding of "drastically" and "different" than I do.

They can't be so incredibly different that people don't know what the hell they're going up against

Maybe enhanced would have been a better word.

 

[zkylon]

You snipe him, he blows into 4 pieces, then it's a race to kill the pieces before he revives and bounces away laughing.

...this is gonna be fun.

so basically he's almost a counter to all my champions.

nice.

I don't like getting in close

 

[PhillipCostigan]

so basically he's almost a counter to all my champions.

nice.

I don't like getting in close

It's about as much of a counter as Anivia's egg tbh.

 

[FieryBalrog]

They can't be so incredibly different that people don't know what the hell they're going up against

What do you mean "people don't know what the hell they're going up against"? They can't read the abilities like anyone else's?

If you mean "if the ultimate drastically changed the abilities, people would be too confused by trying to remember the abilities" - well, better delete Nidalee/Jayce/Elise/Quinn from the game, then? At least a couple more, actually. How many people remember how 50 fury Renekton changes from 0 fury? Not a lot.

In fact, original Karma is way, way easier to remember compared to those champs- Q goes from nuke to nuke/heal, E goes from shield to shield/nuke (notice the symmetry?) and W just doubles the speed buff/debuff. Her kit was actually a lot less complicated than some champs like Nidalee or Jayce. The reason no one knew what she did is because no one played her, just like few people remember wtf Urgot does anymore. And no one player her because 1) she wasn't competitive tier 2) she was a support/AP hybrid and didn't fit "the meta" 3) she wasn't a pub stomper like Yi or even Poppy 4) she was more reliant than most on teammates knowing how to work with her

 

[zkylon]

It's about as much of a counter as Anivia's egg tbh.

yeah but I ain't gonna play no mucus man

 

[drawkcaB]

Morello's just said that Zac's a tank, not a bruiser. No surprise considering how much CC he's packing. He'll probably be gated by high CDs on most abilities and low-ish AP ratios (hence the %health damage). Hopefully he'll be on the PBE soon(tm). Can't wait to play him. He looks like he'll be as fun as Nautilus, one of my fav champs.

 

[Ken]

Since Zac’s abilities have no mana cost,

Ok I'm in.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

What do you mean "people don't know what the hell they're going up against"? They can't read the abilities like anyone else's?

If you mean "if the ultimate drastically changed the abilities, people would be too confused by trying to remember the abilities" - well, better delete Nidalee/Jayce/Elise/Quinn from the game, then? At least a couple more, actually. How many people remember how 50 fury Renekton changes from 0 fury? Not a lot.

In fact, original Karma is way, way easier to remember compared to those champs- Q goes from nuke to nuke/heal, E goes from shield to shield/nuke (notice the symmetry?) and W just doubles the speed buff/debuff.

Yes, but the difference with those is that there's a massive visual difference so people know the abilities will be different. Elise turns into a spider, Jayce goes from melee to ranged and Nidalee turns into a cougar. Karma's Mantra is a glow, so it would be much more difficult to know if she's using an ability that's drastically different from her non-empowered kit and could be surprised.

Also, Mantra empowers abilities, it's not meant to be a transformation.

 

[kayos90]

Is it me or does Zac look like a Rainbow Devil. Maybe it's just me.

 

[SenorArdilla]

So 13 health pots?

 

[kayos90]

Yes, but the difference with those is that there's a massive visual difference so people know the abilities will be different. Elise turns into a spider, Jayce goes from melee to ranged and Nidalee turns into a cougar. Karma's Mantra is a glow, so it would be much more difficult to know if she's using an ability that's drastically different from her non-empowered kit and could be surprised.

Also, Mantra empowers abilities, it's not meant to be a transformation.

I think he's saying that he had a problem with the writing of the intro to the skills. lol.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Yes, but the difference with those is that there's a massive visual difference so people know the abilities will be different. Elise turns into a spider, Jayce goes from melee to ranged and Nidalee turns into a cougar. Karma's Mantra is a glow, so it would be much more difficult to know if she's using an ability that's drastically different from her non-empowered kit and could be surprised.

Also, Mantra empowers abilities, it's not meant to be a transformation.

I think that's a pretty big stretch, because it's not like most people remember all of Jayce's abilities in both modes, or how they interact. Ditto Nidalee, ditto Elise.

Even then there's champs that I mentioned like Renekton where there is no big visual difference and the changes to his abilities are not particularly obvious. Take another example, Kha'Zix.

I think why no one knew what she did is this, which I edited in:

The reason no one knew what she did is because no one played her, just like few people remember wtf Urgot does anymore. And no one player her because 1) she wasn't competitive tier 2) she was a support/AP hybrid and didn't fit "the meta" 3) she wasn't a pub stomper like Yi or even Poppy 4) she was more reliant than most on teammates knowing how to work with her

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I think he's saying that he had a problem with the writing of the intro to the skills. lol.

I think he has a problem with everything about the remake, problems I'm not seeing.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I think he's saying that he had a problem with the writing of the intro to the skills. lol.

Well, I also have a problem with how incredibly generic and dull the new skills are. You know they're sort of running out of options when they re-use skills almost wholesale, which is why it's troubling that Karma's new W is Leblanc's E, and apparently Zac has a max health AOE which is not terribly different from Amumu (also a tank himself) with his W or Malz having his own max health AOE.


The game needs more unique and interesting champions, not less. A majority of the most interesting champions in this game - with iconic, unique skills - came about early or early-mid in the game's life, when Riot was bolder and more willing to experiment. Think Zilean, Nocturne, Nunu, Kassadin, Singed, etc.

Champs also had more interesting kits that didn't always fit together in very obvious ways. Think Yi, Nunu again, Sion, Kayle, Karma herself. Etc.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

I think that's a pretty big stretch, because it's not like most people remember all of Jayce's abilities in both modes, or how they interact. Ditto Nidalee, ditto Elise.

Even then there's champs that I mentioned like Renekton where there is no big visual difference and the changes to his abilities are not particularly obvious. Take another example, Kha'Zix.

But it's still very easy to know that Jayce's abilities are changing because he starts hitting things with a hammer rather than shooting them with a cannon thing. He even holds the weapon differently.

Your visual indicator is his fury bar which you can see. You know that once it goes red abilities are going to be different. Renekton's actually a good counterpoint to your argument. No massive visual change, so no massive functional change. Same with Karma.

There's a visual difference to Kha' Zix's model when he has his abilities evolved. Also his abilities permanently change, it's not on-demand so it really isn't comparable.

And if you want to be so reductive about her abilities, you could say the same about every champion. Renekton's W is pretty much Leona's Q etc. etc.

I really don't know what your expectations are.

 

[drawkcaB]

Well, I also have a problem with how incredibly generic and dull the new skills are. You know they're sort of running out of options when they re-use skills almost wholesale, which is why it's troubling that Karma's new W is Leblanc's E, and apparently Zac has a max health AOE which is not terribly different from Amumu (also a tank himself) with his W or Malz having his own max health AOE.

Karma's description makes it seem like her W is on-click, not a skill shot. Zac's AoE also seems to be immediate damage as opposed to DoT like Amumu and Malz. I think it's a bit much to expect every new skill to be unique. Hell, if you want to complain about skill copying Zac's Q is a bigger transgressor on paper (it reads exactly like Olaf's Q). But Zac's E and R seem pretty unique.

There's a limited design space available most of the time and generally speaking Riot handles it well, IMO.

(and how is Singed experimental?)

 

[zkylon]

any xerath players here? seems he'd be up my alley if I can get a rule 63 mod in or something.

 

[dimb]

The new Karma sounds bad. Not enough hard CC to be a support unless the numbers are super busted.

 

[Diprosalic]

The new Karma sounds bad. Not enough hard CC to be a support unless the numbers are super busted.

she isn't (primarely) a support anymore.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

The new Karma sounds bad. Not enough hard CC to be a support unless the numbers are super busted.

She's not meant to be a full on support any more. AP mage with supporting abilities. Lux and Orianna are the comparisons they mentioned specifically. She can play any lane.

 

[Neki]

orianna is super hard mid, i'm best lux NA but I can't play orianna for shit

 

[zkylon]

orianna is super hard mid, i'm best lux NA but I can't play orianna for shit

she's not that hard, just super punishing if you miss her ult.

syndra has three times as many balls man

 

[scy]

It's also funny how the guy says

" We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma’s abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time."

After reading "drastically different ways" I started reading the abilities and that's when I realized Riot has a different understanding of "drastically" and "different" than I do.

Wait, how are they not drastically different? One is an AoE Slow, one is a Self Heal, and the other is a AoE Damage + AoE Shield. Those are three drastically different things. They are three distinctly different changes to the skills, that is what they meant. It's not that the three skills each become something vastly different from their base skill.

 

[kayos90]

Wait, how are they not drastically different? One is an AoE Slow, one is a Self Heal, and the other is a Damage Shield Aura. Those are three drastically different things. They are three distinctly different changes to the skills, that is what they meant. It's not that the three skills each become something vastly different from their base skill.

LOL. Reading that quote in context, and realizing what I said was wrong. FAIL. This is what happens when you read shit out of context. You're right. The writing of that is in line with what is described.

 

[Neki]

she's not that hard, just super punishing if you miss her ult.

syndra has three times as many balls man

syndra is press r to win though

 

[zkylon]

syndra is press r to win though

tbh neither are really all that hard to play imo, they just have crazy high skillcaps.

 

[Diprosalic]

tbh neither are really all that hard to play imo, they just have crazy high skillcaps.

none of the lol champs are hard to play.

 

[zkylon]

none of the lol champs are hard to play.

I disagree, I find nidalee and riven to be pretty hard to play, and syndra's pretty tough too (I mean besides r to win).

I'd add caitlyn but I'm super alone with that

 

[Diprosalic]

I disagree, I find nidalee and riven to be pretty hard to play, and syndra's pretty tough too (I mean besides r to win).

I'd add caitlyn but I'm super alone with that

i mean mechanically. all LoL champs are pretty darn easy to play in comparison to other dota games or standard RTS.

 

[Ferga]

Zac looks awesome. Time to rack up more IP. Hopefully he jungles better than laning.

 

[zkylon]

i mean mechanically. all LoL champs are pretty darn easy to play in comparison to other dota games or standard RTS.

I haven't played any other dota games so I guess you're right but what's the point of discussing champion difficulty if you're gonna say they're all easy compared against other games?

speaking of lol specifically, I'm not boasting or anything, but picked up ori and didn't find her too complicated, which is why I'm saying she's not hard. had a lot more trouble with other champions like nidalee because she has more abilities than most champs, a very situational passive and a somewhat unusual role as a split pusher.

ori's not easy or anything like that, but I hear cassiopeia is pretty hard, syndra requires a good deal of micromanagement, adcarries are very punishing if you don't know how to play them, etc

 

[Ken]

I have great idea: visible ignite ticker above the champion. Make it like a countdown of how many remaining ticks are left on ignite.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Curse vs. CLG on MLG right now.

 

[dimb]

She's not meant to be a full on support any more. AP mage with supporting abilities. Lux and Orianna are the comparisons they mentioned specifically. She can play any lane.

Both of the champions you mentioned are picked/strong because of their CC.

 

[Diprosalic]

I haven't played any other dota games so I guess you're right but what's the point of discussing champion difficulty if you're gonna say they're all easy compared against other games?

just saying if you rank all MOBA champs i would put every single lol champ in the range from very easy to normal. in dota there is literally a champ that can have 5 different versions of himself at the same time on the map. each with unique cooldowns and fully controllable, if one dies, they all die. they keep lol easy to play (hard to master) on purpose, to not lose the mainstream appeal, which is not a bad thing.

 

[zkylon]

just saying if you rank all MOBA champs i would put every single lol champ in the range from very easy to normal. in dota there is literally a champ that can have 5 different versions of himself at the same time on the map. each with unique cooldowns and fully controllable, if one dies, they all die. they keep lol easy to play (hard to master) on purpose, to not lose the mainstream appeal, which is not a bad thing.

yeah I totally believe you I was just saying that it wasn't adding much to the actual discussion of "is orianna hard to play"

also 5 different states? that sounds crazy as fuck

 

[Ferga]

I have great idea: visible ignite ticker above the champion. Make it like a countdown of how many remaining ticks are left on ignite.

But watching people flash and still die by not counting the ticks properly is hilarious.

Have an ultra fed level 10 top laner come down to bottom lane and ignite a level 6 support for a quarter of their health after they flash is awesome and rewarding.

"DON'T WORRY GUYS, I'LL FLASH AND SURVIVE. I HAVE 250HP LEFT. oh wait..."

 

[scy]

yeah I totally believe you I was just saying that it wasn't adding much to the actual discussion of "is orianna hard to play"

also 5 different states? that sounds crazy as fuck

Meepo is stupid.

There's a lot of absurdity in DotA but it's not that bad.

 

[Wolf Akela]

No one talking about ARAM queue!?

 

[SafeinSound]

Oh wow. That is actually really awesome. Riot is really delivering.

 

[Einbroch]

Zac sounds cool, but his model/art is so bad. So, so bad.

 

[dimb]

Zac voice for people that didn't hear it.

 

[Ferga]

Damn. I was expecting nothing but gurgling or talking while gurgling. Voice doesn't fit his face in my opinion.

 

[dimb]

PBE notes
Hecarim nerfed hard. Rumble nerfed. Brand buffed. Spirit of the Lizard Elder and Nashor's Tooth nerfed. New item that gives you tanky stats + move speed that is charged up by enemy spells.

How is Zac real? He is literally the most OP shit to ever exist.

 

[brian!]

yeah zac looks really fun

 

[kayos90]

Can not wait for ARAM queue. YES!!!!

 

[Ken]

Zac voice for people that didn't hear it.

Jayce?

ZacCell Division [ Passive ]

nope

[both air and game client have "nope"]

lol