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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u

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D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Amazing League of Legends avatar:
l2ViQ.jpg
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
I'll make avatars for whoever wants 'em, the riskier the better.

Also, just won a 4v5 with them surrendering at 27'. 9 victories in a row man, normal too good.
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
dimb said:
Even if ignoring unit collision can be useful, it is incredibly situational for a jungler. Which is really just the problem with Hecarim in general. He requires very specific situations to work right. Is your heal circle going to work? I guess you better hope your team is in sync and the enemy doesn't just decide to CC and zone you because you're easily kited anyways. Is your ult going to land in a situation where the CC can be taken advantage of? Here is a champion designed around initiating from really long distances and then having his team right there to clean up, but his ult used to it's maximum effectiveness creates too much separation between him and his team. Again, it becomes very situational.

In many ways it feels counter-intuitive. He's an AOE damage champion who has an ultimate that is supposed to scatter the enemy. And what is the concern for the enemy team post ultimate? He brings no debuffs or utility, he has no control (although you are free to continue running around praying for Phage procs). His job is kind of just to get in the way, and that isn't enough.

You're right. Amumu can do it with a standard ability.

I don't really know what to say. Assassins make poor junglers right now for the most part, but Hecarim isn't one of them anyways because his strength is supposed to be in his survivability, and people build him relatively tanky. Even then I can't even imagine where this damage is coming from where you think he assassinates targets. His only burst damage is his ult.

I just don't see what Hecarim is supposed to bring. Is it damage? Other champions do that better while also being more tanky. Is it tankiness? Tanky champions are only as good as the CC they bring to interrupt once they are in fights, and Hecarim doesn't have that. Even if you want to be fast and get in the way why wouldn't you play Shyvana or something instead? Her clears are much faster at least.
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A lot of the things you've stated apply to pretty much every other champion in the game. All ultimates are situational. It's useless for all champions to initiate where their team cannot help them. His W works everytime you press the key.

If you get CC'd, that's CC that's not being used on your other teammates so they should be doing something in the meantime, preferably killing the enemy team while they are focusing you. How does his ult create separation from his team when Malphite, Amumu, Shyvana, how many other champs with high mobility ults do the exact same thing? His ult used to its maximum effectiveness means hitting someone with it or escaping, distance means nothing.

You say tanky champions are only as good as the CC they bring to a fight, yet you recommend Shyvana who has less CC than Hecarim. Jungle clears meaning nothing to team fights. Not even as fast as Hecarim and her ult being worse because it pushes the enemy team away from yours unless you are somehow behind them which is not the majority of initiation situations. With Hecarim you get good clears with Q chainsaw, can gank harder than any other Jungler except maybe Rammus/Nocturne. CC immune Ultimate that lets you easily initiate, chase down, or escape enemy champions and can even be used to separate and isolate targets in a team fight for easy killing.

To be honest your arguments don't make much sense to me. Every champion brings something different to the table. Hecarim has his strengths, he has his weaknesses, this goes for all the champions you listed. Choose your champion based on whether their strengths can win the game in your hands.

Maybe you can't win with Hec, and that's fine. Not everyone can do well with every champion. It's just that as a former Hec player your analysis does not seem truthful to me based on experience and information from other sources.
 
S

SouthernDragon

Member
P.S. I was just talking about Ez cause everyone wants him nerfed into the ground.

In my opinion Cait needs a buff. 200% passive and her ult does 150% to the intended target or stuns any intercept. Also, her net slows a wider area of effect and her traps work instantly.
 
C

crackbabyjr

Member
SouthernDragon said:
P.S. I was just talking about Ez cause everyone wants him nerfed into the ground.

In my opinion Cait needs a buff. 200% passive and her ult does 150% to the intended target or stuns any intercept. Also, her net slows a wider area of effect and her traps work instantly.
Click to expand...

Yep, and Q is an instant kill with global range.
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
SouthernDragon said:
P.S. I was just talking about Ez cause everyone wants him nerfed into the ground.

In my opinion Cait needs a buff. 200% passive and her ult does 150% to the intended target or stuns any intercept. Also, her net slows a wider area of effect and her traps work instantly.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's right to have a 3000 range click stun.
 
Z

zkylon

zkylewd
Aww my ten win streak suddenly came to a halt. My buddy got some weird error and he'd dc during matches, and couldn't even load the LoL site or anything.
 
F

Finn of Ooo

Member
PoorFate said:
A lot of the things you've stated apply to pretty much every other champion in the game. All ultimates are situational. It's useless for all champions to initiate where their team cannot help them. His W works everytime you press the key.

If you get CC'd, that's CC that's not being used on your other teammates so they should be doing something in the meantime, preferably killing the enemy team while they are focusing you. How does his ult create separation from his team when Malphite, Amumu, Shyvana, how many other champs with high mobility ults do the exact same thing? His ult used to its maximum effectiveness means hitting someone with it or escaping, distance means nothing.

You say tanky champions are only as good as the CC they bring to a fight, yet you recommend Shyvana who has less CC than Hecarim. Jungle clears meaning nothing to team fights. Not even as fast as Hecarim and her ult being worse because it pushes the enemy team away from yours unless you are somehow behind them which is not the majority of initiation situations. With Hecarim you get good clears with Q chainsaw, can gank harder than any other Jungler except maybe Rammus/Nocturne. CC immune Ultimate that lets you easily initiate, chase down, or escape enemy champions and can even be used to separate and isolate targets in a team fight for easy killing.

To be honest your arguments don't make much sense to me. Every champion brings something different to the table. Hecarim has his strengths, he has his weaknesses, this goes for all the champions you listed. Choose your champion based on whether their strengths can win the game in your hands.

Maybe you can't win with Hec, and that's fine. Not everyone can do well with every champion. It's just that as a former Hec player your analysis does not seem truthful to me based on experience and information from other sources.
Click to expand...

*brofist* Most of the counter arguments I was gonna make can be found here
 
K

Ken

Member
SouthernDragon said:
P.S. I was just talking about Ez cause everyone wants him nerfed into the ground.

In my opinion Cait needs a buff. 200% passive and her ult does 150% to the intended target or stuns any intercept. Also, her net slows a wider area of effect and her traps work instantly.
Click to expand...

That's dumb.
 
D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
PoorFate said:
How does his ult create separation from his team when Malphite, Amumu, Shyvana, how many other champs with high mobility ults do the exact same thing? His ult used to its maximum effectiveness means hitting someone with it or escaping, distance means nothing.
Click to expand...
2/3rds of those champs don't have high mobility ults even. Look, the difference between Malphite and Hecarim is that Hecarim needs to be using his ult to not get kited around and Malphite is considerably less reliant on it to keep the distance closed on his opponents.
PoorFate said:
If you get CC'd, that's CC that's not being used on your other teammates so they should be doing something in the meantime, preferably killing the enemy team while they are focusing you.
Click to expand...
You are completely losing me. If you want to stand there and take CC then take a real tank. Hecarim additionally is someone who is going to lose a significant amount of his tankiness if he isn't stuck to his target and able to use his W. Being locked down as Hecarim is more detrimental to Hecarim than it is other people who are absorbing damage.
PoorFate said:
You say tanky champions are only as good as the CC they bring to a fight, yet you recommend Shyvana who has less CC than Hecarim.
Click to expand...
I recommended Shyvana only over Hecarim, if your desire is to run around the battlefield as a useless dolt and get in the way of CC because that's all you're capable of doing while hoping you can get your damage off and the other team forgot to pick anyone capable of locking you in place.
PoorFate said:
Jungle clears meaning nothing to team fights.
Click to expand...
I really feel like this is maybe one of the most awful things ever said in this thread. Like, I don't even know what to say. Especially when we are talking about gold and item dependent junglers like Hecarim and Shyvana.
PoorFate said:
Not even as fast as Hecarim and her ult being worse because it pushes the enemy team away from yours unless you are somehow behind them which is not the majority of initiation situations. With Hecarim you get good clears with Q chainsaw, can gank harder than any other Jungler except maybe Rammus/Nocturne. CC immune Ultimate that lets you easily initiate, chase down, or escape enemy champions and can even be used to separate and isolate targets in a team fight for easy killing.
Click to expand...
There is so much stuff there that is just uninformed or wrong. Shyvana is faster than Hecarim. Why do I even have to say this? And of course her ult is worse, the point of it is for her to use it more frequently. And Hecarim does not get "good clears" he gets adequate ones that aren't worth comparing to someone like Shyvana who has one of if not the fastest clear in the game. You are overselling his ganks to an extreme degree, especially pre-six.
PoorFate said:
To be honest your arguments don't make much sense to me. Every champion brings something different to the table. Hecarim has his strengths, he has his weaknesses, this goes for all the champions you listed. Choose your champion based on whether their strengths can win the game in your hands.
Click to expand...
I don't know how much more clear I can be with this without beating you over the head with it: Hecarim has no strengths that solidify him as a solid pick above an extensive list of champions. How many ways do I have to say this? There are tons of junglers with similar kits who flatly do everything he can do but better. He brings nothing new to the table, and is possibly even weaker in the current meta than before because of how everything is centered around the early game right now. There are people who can do his job while being able to output just as much damage while building tanky, clear faster, invade harder, and control objectives more effectively. There is always a better choice than Hecarim for your jungler, but obviously most of us just play for fun so do whatever you want. That still doesn't change the fact that he's not an optimal pick.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
dimb said:
2/3rds of those champs don't have high mobility ults even. Look, the difference between Malphite and Hecarim is that Hecarim needs to be using his ult to not get kited around and Malphite is considerably less reliant on it to keep the distance closed on his opponents.
Click to expand...
Hecarim is one of the faster champions in the game, especially if you build movespeed items to take advantage of his boosts, I would guess. Who is going to not get kited as easily? Malphite is obviously a special case with the speed-stealing ability, so are you purely referring to champions with low-cooldown slowing abilities?

dimb said:
I really feel like this is maybe one of the most awful things ever said in this thread. Like, I don't even know what to say. Especially when we are talking about gold and item dependent junglers like Hecarim and Shyvana.
Click to expand...
I can't tell if you're trolling or not. If you're serious:

You realize that whether you clear the jungle fast or not, you end up with some set of items. Clearing a jungle more quickly can help you get more items.

However, at some point in time X, you will have some set of items. At that point in time, you will have a teamfight. At that point in time, your jungle clear time does not matter, only the items you have AT TIME X. Is that not what Poorfate is saying? He's not talking about getting the items, he is talking about what you can do with the items, for some given teamfight.
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
Seems to me that you're only interested in disingenuously presenting information in order to make him look as bad as possible.

I've lost interest in this exchange.

Finn, you're up.
 
L

lazorexplosion

Member
Samyy said:
Why is no one playing Diana much? I just played her a couple times yesterday and destroyed with her. The burst is insane.
Click to expand...

Agreed, great duelist in lane post 6 and she's pretty much always ready to go gank thanks to that tiny ult cool down; good burst plus decent sustained damage with the low cooldown Q and excellent scaling passive.
 
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