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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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Why are they masturbating in class. That's so inappropriate!
You were supposed to go to bed.
Elise is like jayce, she dont destroy you in 1 combo, she harass and harass until u have 30 hp then finish you off. her stun is insanely good for stopping all ins too and her q is really with if you have magic pen.
even jayce cant fight 1v1 against most top champions and only win because of his harass.
im using chaox build right now, open with huanting guise and sorcerer shoes them go build rylai (or sunfire cape).
even jayce cant fight 1v1 against most top champions and only win because of his harass.
im using chaox build right now, open with huanting guise and sorcerer shoes them go build rylai (or sunfire cape).
OP melee/ranged/jungle assassins sell better, obviously.
And because the game is so limited in what supports can do that their champ designers cant come up with anything other than healbot/stun bot.
Vlad is on that list.
Jayce did destroy people with one combo though. And he can still stand against most champions 1v1 top lane in a straight up fight.
The difference between Jayce and Elise is that Jayce has a kit that fits together. If he needs to stay safe because he can't win the trade he can sit back at a distance and farm/harass. If he is in control of the lane he is able to leap in with his melee or farm the lane with it to zone. Even if he jumps in his combo can disengage from the enemy. He is an extremely safe laner, and a great fit for top.
Now look at Elise. She has a jumbled mess of a kit. She can be a mage and farm, but the problem will always be that this form is inherently weak. It scales poorly, has low damage output, and offers no passive bonuses on top of being fairly mana intensive. So you have this weak caster who doesn't pose a threat most of the time, and that's where your harass is coming from. You are pushed into spider form to deal damage, but I don't think that the tricks are there to really offer much survivability. So your super awesome form that you want to be in? Yeah, you can only use it when you know you're going to win and you need to go in for the kill.
Her damage is too low to be threatening, and she doesn't offer the CC or utility to really instill fear either. So people are stuck building her as a tank just so they can survive and actually do their job while praying that her base damage values will remain relevant with enough CDR as the game timer ticks up and every other champion around her becomes a powerhouse.
The difference between Jayce and Elise is that Jayce has a kit that fits together. If he needs to stay safe because he can't win the trade he can sit back at a distance and farm/harass. If he is in control of the lane he is able to leap in with his melee or farm the lane with it to zone. Even if he jumps in his combo can disengage from the enemy. He is an extremely safe laner, and a great fit for top.
Now look at Elise. She has a jumbled mess of a kit. She can be a mage and farm, but the problem will always be that this form is inherently weak. It scales poorly, has low damage output, and offers no passive bonuses on top of being fairly mana intensive. So you have this weak caster who doesn't pose a threat most of the time, and that's where your harass is coming from. You are pushed into spider form to deal damage, but I don't think that the tricks are there to really offer much survivability. So your super awesome form that you want to be in? Yeah, you can only use it when you know you're going to win and you need to go in for the kill.
Her damage is too low to be threatening, and she doesn't offer the CC or utility to really instill fear either. So people are stuck building her as a tank just so they can survive and actually do their job while praying that her base damage values will remain relevant with enough CDR as the game timer ticks up and every other champion around her becomes a powerhouse.
And? Vlad should destroy Elise.
That human Q hurts too much. Can't sustain enough even with spell vamp quints. I had to give up my tower just to farm safely.
I haven't played her, just against her. I don't really know what to say other than that I'm not afraid of human form Elise. She's missing her passive and passive stat boosts in human form. Without an escape and with relatively low range I think she's an exceptionally easy gank. She doesn't belong in top lane and will get kicked out of there by people who do.
So I mean, I guess you can pick Elise and watch Jayce mess with you from twice as far away while doing better in close range. I guess you can lane versus Darius and watch him pull you from auto-attack range to slice your neck up and shove his axe down your throat. I guess you can watch Malphite's shield block your harass and continue to not care one bit about you. I guess you can watch Shen shield your harass, heal up any damage, and outlast you by a huge margin in any 1v1 as a tank. I guess you could watch Jax leap on to you and counterstrike your pathetic spiders before he stuns and destroys you. I guess you could watch Swain get even more health back from all of your spiderlings before he zones you hard and keeps you away while chewing away your health.
Like seriously. I could go on forever, and that's without bringing up champs like Yorick or Olaf would would post a serious problem for her. I would love if top lane Elise became popular. It would make me feel more comfortable about my Kha'Zix or Lulu pick.
Why is she in range to Q you? Both your Q and E outrange her. Even if your turret did get destroyed just farm and you'll be more relevant than her once mid game rolls around.
TransfusionRANGE: 600
NeurotoxinRANGE: 650
Mid/late game doesn't matter since I can just let my teammates kill her. I just have to throw down my ult and trollpool/Zhonyas to win teamfights and gain Teemo points.
That doesn't sound like "destroying" Elise.
You pick probably the safest laner in the game who happens to have a huge mid/late game against someone focused around harass and winning an early game. I don't know what else to tell you. I still think it's a lane Vlad could come out on top of but even if he doesn't he should still be the winner if you're playing right.
You're supposed to tell me "Vlad does okay against Elise" not "Vlad should destroy Elise."
I've only played this matchup once and if it wasn't for Vlad's great late game and Elise's meh late game I would never pick Vlad into Elise again.
Oh shit, DIMB is full of shit!
also that last sentence says "if you're good enough, you can outplay anybody"
ok well duh i can beat shitty ahris as ad soraka in middle
This isn't even what I mean. All you do as Vlad early game is farm. If you can harass great, do it. If it's too dangerous to harass but you know you'll win mid/late game, wow you can farm against Elise and she can't really stop you. The situation is reversed for someone like Elise. If she doesn't shut down her lane opponent than she will probably lose, because the longer the game goes on the weaker she is getting.
Like holy shit why do I even have to explain this?
Jesus christ I'm not here to write a guide to tell you how to play Vlad. Outsustain your enemy. Farm hard. Laugh when your Tides of Blood stacks on spiderlings to heal you. Vlad is not a bad pick into Elise. This is so stupid.
We have different definitions of "destroy."
It is hard to get an easier lane with champions that get played regularly. I don't know what else to tell you. If you are imagining that you can pick some champion and get an auto-win where you just wreck the opponent you think you countered that's not how the game works.
Vlad has done well against harass based ranged APs in the past like Kennen. I have not played this specific match up, but Elise is a weak champion to begin with who fills a similar role in lane. Guess how I imagine things transpiring.
You misleadingly represent your arguments with shitty vague statements
When somebody says X destroys Y, it implies a 1v1 matchup... like a LANE
Elise does destroy Vlad. She shits on him in lane. Early game champion beats weak early game champion. The statement doesn't say that Elise v Vlad = win game at all. No shit you can still win the game even if you get counterpicked. But "destroys" is just that - a counterpick. If you want to argue that Elise isn't a counterpick to Vlad, you're just lying so that you don't seem wrong already.
When somebody says X destroys Y, it implies a 1v1 matchup... like a LANE
Elise does destroy Vlad. She shits on him in lane. Early game champion beats weak early game champion. The statement doesn't say that Elise v Vlad = win game at all. No shit you can still win the game even if you get counterpicked. But "destroys" is just that - a counterpick. If you want to argue that Elise isn't a counterpick to Vlad, you're just lying so that you don't seem wrong already.
Two maxed Elise Q's will drop most laners to half health. Olaf, Irelia, Shen, Jax, Jayce, Wukong, Vlad, Malphite, etc. are all easy to deal with at low-to-mid levels right now (granted, some are due to the matchups being played sloppy). Elise scales really well for a 1v1 harass situation since she needs to poke multiple Qs before her all-in; she's perfectly suited for top lane. The few laners she has issues with are the ones that can consistently sustain on a shorter cooldown than her Q or can gap close so hard at Level 2 that she's bullied out before harassing at all.
Right now, Elise is one of the best harassment laners. She outranges most harassments and her Q poke is dangerous. She has very few matchups she outright loses in lane, if any at all.
Her issue come late game is that her kit revolves around prolonged engagements. Multiple Qs, spiderlings consistently attacking a target. That's why she offers little in a team fight itself and why the best build for her is to build right into a tank (Guise -> Boots2 -> Rylai's/FH/Abyssal/GA in some order). She's not a bad character, it's that her kit is counter intuitive to team fighting itself so she basically just offers herself as a tank with a short CD Execute.
Edit: And if you've only ever played TF Bruiser or AP Elise, then it's really not a fair comparison. She's an MPen/CDR/Tank build. That's her design. At Level 5, she deals 140 + 8% CurrentHP at a 650 Range on a 6s CD. Assuming a typical bruiser laner, that's at around 800-900 HP so you're talking about a ~200 Damage nuke. At Level 5, that's 3 Qs to get you to half health. Spider form can all-in at half health from there, or at least force a flash and a back. She also baits for counter ganks really well.
I had a game last night vs a Shen that I forced out of lane and had a four level advantage on him. I had, at one point, 70 cs on him (~110 to his 30ish). Her harassment is so strong that she gets lane dominance really well and can actually afford to buy her tank items (even in 20m games, I've gotten to get to Guise/Boots2/FH/Rylai's nearly done or finished). She destroys any soft sustain lane and any weak early game champs.
Right now, Elise is one of the best harassment laners. She outranges most harassments and her Q poke is dangerous. She has very few matchups she outright loses in lane, if any at all.
Her issue come late game is that her kit revolves around prolonged engagements. Multiple Qs, spiderlings consistently attacking a target. That's why she offers little in a team fight itself and why the best build for her is to build right into a tank (Guise -> Boots2 -> Rylai's/FH/Abyssal/GA in some order). She's not a bad character, it's that her kit is counter intuitive to team fighting itself so she basically just offers herself as a tank with a short CD Execute.
Edit: And if you've only ever played TF Bruiser or AP Elise, then it's really not a fair comparison. She's an MPen/CDR/Tank build. That's her design. At Level 5, she deals 140 + 8% CurrentHP at a 650 Range on a 6s CD. Assuming a typical bruiser laner, that's at around 800-900 HP so you're talking about a ~200 Damage nuke. At Level 5, that's 3 Qs to get you to half health. Spider form can all-in at half health from there, or at least force a flash and a back. She also baits for counter ganks really well.
I had a game last night vs a Shen that I forced out of lane and had a four level advantage on him. I had, at one point, 70 cs on him (~110 to his 30ish). Her harassment is so strong that she gets lane dominance really well and can actually afford to buy her tank items (even in 20m games, I've gotten to get to Guise/Boots2/FH/Rylai's nearly done or finished). She destroys any soft sustain lane and any weak early game champs.
Wolf Akela
Member
Just fought and lost to a pretty good Teemo.
He was actually bad in lane. It was me (Vayne) + Nunu vs Teemo and Darius. He wasn't even poking me with Q. He could've sent me packing home a few times but he didn't. Darius never caught me so it was a freefarm lane.
He really shined mid-game to the end. Even if we had Malphite, we just couldn't initiate. I can't even catch him or properly start a fight. We did get Oracles but we kept losing it, and Teemo still places them inside bushes where you can't attack it without popping. Because of that, even if we DID clear a lot of shrooms we're already injured. Teemo had Oracles and kept removing all our wards. Can't catch him removing them because he has shrooms. We won most of the fights but we got split pushed so hard. Still ended with 12/5/5 though. I love love love love an end game Vayne with a Nunu.
He was actually bad in lane. It was me (Vayne) + Nunu vs Teemo and Darius. He wasn't even poking me with Q. He could've sent me packing home a few times but he didn't. Darius never caught me so it was a freefarm lane.
He really shined mid-game to the end. Even if we had Malphite, we just couldn't initiate. I can't even catch him or properly start a fight. We did get Oracles but we kept losing it, and Teemo still places them inside bushes where you can't attack it without popping. Because of that, even if we DID clear a lot of shrooms we're already injured. Teemo had Oracles and kept removing all our wards. Can't catch him removing them because he has shrooms. We won most of the fights but we got split pushed so hard. Still ended with 12/5/5 though. I love love love love an end game Vayne with a Nunu.
It's a Twisted Treeline item. It was built from Catalyst before but now it builds from Haunting Guise + Kage's.
And Magic Pen works on all Magic damage sources.
Wolf Akela
Member
It was reverted back to max HP shred?
I might have to start playing 3v3 again. Some of my troll builds just got a whole lot better. To have something like you mentioned with a bloodrazor, and pd with one damage item this will be making idiots who get no mr cringe vs me. Definite 5 shots or less if I get certain items with the item you mentioned.
Vayne with nunu is about one the best synergies you can ask for from a support wolf. The AS and MS ensure no one outside of a few are going to be outrunning or willing to trade so easily.
She's not. You can keep saying I'm lying or whatever but I also think everyone who is talking about how strong she is top lane is full of it too so clearly everything with this argument is going great. Thankfully all the resident Vladmir experts are here to prove me wrong.
Even if she is the best harasser in the game
I watched some of your games yesterday. Your opponents were really bad a lot of the time. Let's throw a party that you took such a lead over Kage's Pick/HoG/Aegis Shen and he still not only caught up to you in CS by the end of the game but also won the game and passed you up in gold.
I really don't understand if these numbers are supposed to be impressive. Even Rumble could choose to max his E instead of his Q and do as much or more damage from a longer range before Danger Zone. Maybe if we wanted to bring up champions who show up all the time that harass well we would look at Jayce and see that he too can hit for ~200 at 1k range. Thankfully this is a world without resistances or pots so this is all A++ damage. The range on her Q is short. Even if you push someone out of lane they can come back and all in you the next time you try it or once they pick up their ultimate. Unless you don't think Darius or someone will pull you and outdamage you, especially once he hits six.
She simply doesn't have the range to effectively harass or zone well in the way I think other AP tops are able to. And she doesn't have the all in that someone like Swain does to push people out or win a fight if she gets caught.
lazorexplosion
Member
That feel when you get just in range to let a friendly Jax jump to you while you wall off his pursuers... and then he gets finished off by a Draven ult out of nowhere.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Terbinator
Member
soda cop bring da motherfuckin ruckus
There really seems to be two attitudes here, but these are attitudes that are tropes of new champions. For new champs, it's hard to judge by numbers to a certain extent, you will face people who do not know how to work against the new champ, but also people who do not know how to play the new champ.
It's pretty widely acknowledged that top is a skill-based match-up, based mainly on jungle intervention. I'm not saying this to invalidate "counter pick" discussion, and I don't even know what Elise's spells are. But it's true that type of discussion only goes so far
Like I don't see how Elise fundamentally beats Vlad unless they are constantly duking it out which is kind of ridiculous. The low range of her q makes her come to close, if she harrasses a lot she'll push the lane, etc. If vlad plays like most vlads do (safe) she'll be pretty open to ganks and she has no escape.
But like, this can be accounted for by both sides, she's also not fundamentally weak. I think that's where most people come from when they try to argue on "x shits on y" terms, but it doesn't seem like a conversation worth having.
and I (in my inexperience) don't really see anything specific to Elise that would make her counter Vlad any harder than say anything that is ranged and has damage
My League is broken at the moment, went to play a ranked game, queue popped, accepted, and then nothing happened, tried to join another a queue and it said I was already in an active game so I couldn't do that. Re-logged, and it asks me to reconnected, but on hitting reconnect nothing happens... No games for me tonight 
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
The last page of this thread.
The last page of this thread.
u mean "the internet"
Mmm that Skarner.
And I never said I was a Vlad expert. I even said I only played the matchup once.
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