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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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I AM SUPPORT!
Axispowers
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I AM SUPPORT
This is part of the reason I may try my Lee Sin or other counter jungle junglers more. When I'm playing Maokai, I don't ever feel like I've got the kind of map presence we need, even with some ganks going on.
Pretty much. On the other hand, anything with better mobility than Ezreal can really beat him around. Alternatively, a bad Ezreal that can't land W's will just have trouble in mid anyway.
I feel you. I really do. I had the most annoying ranked game last night where the opposing team was Kassadin, Caitlyn, Garen, Shyvana and Allistar. The game ended up going to 50+ minutes and the Garen, Shyv and Allistar were almost unkillable. They all built super tank.
I was Diana and fed to all hell (18/4/19 and 421 cs) and it felt like I was simply beating on a wall. I absolutely blew up Kass and Caitlyn but the tanky ones were just walking around without a care in the world. We ended up losing in a base race while our jungler solo'd dragon......... in a 55 minute game.... with both nexuses open.. and me sitting on 5k gold with nothing to do with it.
edit: Man, just thinking about that game is so frustrating. I should have been over 1300 with a win there. We had it and threw the game hard. I shut Kassadin down. I focused Caitlyn every single teamfight. Our team just couldn't get focused and we lost way too many towers early. Ugh. I just don't have the time to put in a ton of games and losing ones that should have been a straightforward win is harsh.
Lee Sin is my favorite (only?) jungler. When played right (I'll do it sometimes) he is an incredible jungler. Sneaky ganks, good counter jungling, high mobility without flash (run smite/exhaust) and good clear times. He can also solo dragon early on with wriggles and sneak in there from behind to do so. For my terrible 1200 elo games, it's tough to motivate the team to do anything so I'll solo dragon early for a quick lead.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I'm hoping with the new item changes there'll be a better way to kill super tanks.
An item with a Bloodseeker ultimate active effect would be awesome against champs like Singed.
An item with a Bloodseeker ultimate active effect would be awesome against champs like Singed.
More item news:
Of course, this isn't done yet. Just something in testing currently. That's actually a pretty good item, depending on how good Heal/CV are come Season 3. And, sure, Revive I guess. For Dominion.
Xypherous' wording makes it seem like there's a similar item for three of the offensive Summoner skills as well (Ignite/Exhaust/Smite?).
I like Lee Sin since he directly scales with your mechanics. The better you get at the game, the better your Lee Sin is. I mean, this applies to many champs, sure, but Lee Sin takes it to an even greater extreme. He's so fun to play because of that.
It's just ... I have like no confidence in my jungling, which makes counter jungling, or even ganking, a rather hard thing to pull off sometimes. From my time as a top laner, I know how much it sucks to have a bad jungler and I always feel like that's what I'm doing when I'm playing jungle. Most of it is just inexperience but that seems to just feed back into itself to keep me from it :x
Of course, this isn't done yet. Just something in testing currently. That's actually a pretty good item, depending on how good Heal/CV are come Season 3. And, sure, Revive I guess. For Dominion.
Xypherous' wording makes it seem like there's a similar item for three of the offensive Summoner skills as well (Ignite/Exhaust/Smite?).
I like Lee Sin since he directly scales with your mechanics. The better you get at the game, the better your Lee Sin is. I mean, this applies to many champs, sure, but Lee Sin takes it to an even greater extreme. He's so fun to play because of that.
It's just ... I have like no confidence in my jungling, which makes counter jungling, or even ganking, a rather hard thing to pull off sometimes. From my time as a top laner, I know how much it sucks to have a bad jungler and I always feel like that's what I'm doing when I'm playing jungle. Most of it is just inexperience but that seems to just feed back into itself to keep me from it :x
I'm hoping with the new item changes there'll be a better way to kill super tanks.
An item with a Bloodseeker ultimate active effect would be awesome against champs like Singed.
Haha yeah. With the DFG nerf I literally couldn't think of any way to itemize to kill them as a caster. I had sorc shoes, Void staff, Rabadon's, Lichbane, Abyssal and GA with magic pen runes. I was still doing diddly. I was sitting on 5k gold and nothing to do with it. I would have happily sold a couple things to get some tank killer items.
More customizable itemization will really open this game up and separate the good from the great.
I like watching Oddone and onebadbrad. I've learned a lot from them. The biggest thing I took from him and other great junglers is to have a strong early presence. The scariest junglers are the ones where you swear they are everywhere. Both those guys will ALWAYS do a level 2 gank. They'll mix it up so you don't know what lane. Only bot is likely to be warded but with Lee Sin you can do an effective lane gank in that case. Get into a rhythm of clearing the jungle and go right into a gank. Get creative on your angles and keep the opponents guessing. My favorite gank is either drop a ward or just straight W to a creep right next to the opponent and hit them with a quick Q. E and auto quick and if/when they flash, do the second Q to follow and drop the second E. If they don't flash, E again and beat the heck out of them. Should be an easy kill or at least they're zoned.
My biggest problem was farming too much. Jungle isn't enough to keep you up with the lanes and suddenly you're useless. Gank often, counter jungle, get objectives. That's why I suck as nocturne. I farm way too much. Lee Sin forces me to get creative. I also really like Rengar in the jungle too. But he's banned way too much. The only practice I get with him is trolly blind picks.
Sometimes I feel like this game is football. I watch a lot and can analyze the heck out of it, but put me on the field and I'll be pop warner quality lol.
Like I said, it's more a confidence issue from the lack of experience. I have a similar problem with my champions that I know mechanically well but have little experience with (e.g., my Nidalee). I can try to convert Level 2 Red first or Level 4 double buff ganks, or at least force out the lane or summoners. I know how to watch for lanes showing the signs of pushing and to try to route for them. It just never seems quite right whenever I'm playing since I have little practice with the role.
So, yeah, it's just the lack of playing enough games as a Jungler to where I know where I'm at, progress wise, in relation to the enemy basically every moment of the game. Which then feeds back into itself of not wanting to play it due to being bad at it which just makes the whole thing that much worse in the long run!
MS% vlad should poopie on Ezreal
What was your build? Diana is meant to be really strong against tanky champions because they cant break her shield before it resets...
Flat Penetration is going before %penetration now. If you remember in s1, armor was absolutely worthless because of flat before % and because Last whisper was an amazing item and people had like, 30 Arpen in runes. We will only have one of those, but it's a lessening in the value of resistances nonetheless.I'm hoping with the new item changes there'll be a better way to kill super tanks.
An item with a Bloodseeker ultimate active effect would be awesome against champs like Singed.
DFG wasn't used to kill tanks =p
Anyway, it really is the ADC job to kill tanks, not the AP carries.
From Dan Dinh's The mechanic, hopefully itll help people move/attack (for in game reference, a teemo is around 100 units):
(your movement speed is how many units you will move in 1s)
P.S. Jungling is hardest role in the game
Sorc shoes, Abyssal, Rabadon's, Lichbane, Void Staff, GA.
Yeah, Our ADC was Ashe and she just wasn't getting it done against 3 very tanky champs. I was virtually unkillable near the end with my shield and GA. Only 4 deaths the whole game and 3 were midgame. I didn't look at Ashe's build. I was too frustrated. We were so close. Probably my best individual performance in a tough game and couldn't close the deal. I know this was the first time I ever broke 400 cs lol.
It really bugs me to see ADCs chasing by attacking the moment they get to max range rather than making sure they're always in attack range. That is, they have to chase to get into range rather than chase while in range. I feel like it's one of the reasons why Vayne (and new MF, after a short delay) is so easy to play in pursuit situations; they'll almost always be fast enough to just naturally be kept in range.
Applies to melee champs too but it's far more annoying with ADCs.
I'd like at least two new items or remakes:
1. Something that gives non-mana AP casters CDR, to replace DFG
2. Something that gives AD casters mana, since manamune is presumably always terrible (of course this may never happen depending on how much Riot hates Talon and AD Nidalee)
1. Something that gives non-mana AP casters CDR, to replace DFG
2. Something that gives AD casters mana, since manamune is presumably always terrible (of course this may never happen depending on how much Riot hates Talon and AD Nidalee)
Considering the new Blackfire Torch (Health, AP, Spell Pen, CDR), I wager there's something in the works for this.
Manamune is getting an upgrade and it either builds into something or grants a bonus when maxed.
What is Sheen?
Ionian boots
Sell GA after it popped and get Hourglass. I'm not a fan of lichbane on Diana anyway. It does physical damage... and you have no armorpen. So it might be ok vs squishies, but you have no problem killing those anyway.
To be fair, I think his point was "an AD + Mana item" and not really "a +Mana item for ADs." Manamune is supposed to fill that void but it doesn't right now. Which is a shame as Manamune is an item I really, really like conceptually.
You do get Sheen on Nidalee, though, so I'm not sure why he mentioned Nid there :x
Generally speaking, Sorc Shoes is better damage than the CDR from these.
A miserable pile of Triforce.
This sounds better. I don't like Ionian boots because then you give up magic penetration or magic resist. Tradeoffs are bad, give me all the stats!
To be specific I should say some sort of mana regen item, or mana boost larger than sheen has. I don't remember the exact value but I don't think sheen increases your mana pool by much, considering a single ability from Nidalee takes like 120-140 mana if I recall correctly.
Wouldn't this be true of ANY AP caster though? None of those are going to build arpen as far as I know.Boken said:
Good thoughts. Defense wasn't really an issue. Lichbane was more of a "what the heck do I get for my last slot?" item. Frankly I probably would have been better off just getting another Rabadon's though the Lichbane helped me kill the super creeps when I was the only one defending our nexus.
kiunchbb
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ADC and ap won't build enough armor for more than 50% phy damage reduction, so lichbane still act like an extra nuke that does 0.5ap ratio true damage to your main target every 3 seconds.
I just don't think AP can survive long enough in late game to trigger it more than once or twice, so DFG will still be a better item.
I love Diana. I had a couple of bad games immediately after she was nerfed and put her down but I'm starting to play her again. She does real well against Kat and I had an easy time against Kassadin last game also. She's mana hungry though. I have to get a couple doran's as quick as possible to be a good lane bully.
I typically go Abyssal -> Deathcap -> GA.
Before the patch I exclusively jungled her, which she was always iffy. Now it's even worse, but she still cleans up mid.
Went up against 2 oris, 1 morg, 1 twitch mid. Won the lane every time.
Still pretty pissed about her skin change though.
I tried her as a jungler some. Way too mana hungry. I liked her WAY better as a mid.
The skin change was awful. I'm still a little hot about that too. I loved that skin the way it was. First new champ bundle I ever bought because I liked that skin so much. Then they go off and change it. ugly.
Too gold hungry too. That and she's best early-mid game, which she will lag behind everyone else when in the jungle.
Her ganks are pretty bad pre-6 too.
davidpdong
Member
I've recently been having alot of trouble being a 'playmaker' as ADC.
I lane pretty well, still need to play against Dravens and Zyras to get more experience against them. But after laning I just never seem to be a big enough factor in the mid games.
Team fights start, I get dove burn my escape and im kinda out of the fight.
So many games feel decided by everyone BUT me and my support, how did people ever hit diamond maining ADC?
I lane pretty well, still need to play against Dravens and Zyras to get more experience against them. But after laning I just never seem to be a big enough factor in the mid games.
Team fights start, I get dove burn my escape and im kinda out of the fight.
So many games feel decided by everyone BUT me and my support, how did people ever hit diamond maining ADC?
I like deathcap way better first.
-I'm rushing GA after, so I'll have the defense after.
-Deathcap has way more AP, so I'm more defensive with the shield.
-With sorc boots + masteries + runes you're close to true damage against most early game champs. Unless they're packing serious mr.
-You gain no benefit from Abyssal's aura when poking with diana. (her Q has 200 more range than the debuff)
-Abyssal is a slower start.
-I'm rushing GA after, so I'll have the defense after.
-Deathcap has way more AP, so I'm more defensive with the shield.
-With sorc boots + masteries + runes you're close to true damage against most early game champs. Unless they're packing serious mr.
-You gain no benefit from Abyssal's aura when poking with diana. (her Q has 200 more range than the debuff)
-Abyssal is a slower start.
I've recently been having alot of trouble being a 'playmaker' as ADC.
I lane pretty well, still need to play against Dravens and Zyras to get more experience against them. But after laning I just never seem to be a big enough factor in the mid games.
Team fights start, I get dove burn my escape and im kinda out of the fight.
So many games feel decided by everyone BUT me and my support, how did people ever hit diamond maining ADC?
You need to watch some YellowPete. He's like the master of staying out of harm's way and picking off the edges of team fights. It's positioning and really your team needs to help peel as well.
Though I really feel you. My ADC games are usually things like 15/10/15 lol. I die a lot. Not my best role.
Definitely good points. I don't go Abyssal first for the damage as much as the defense. She's got pretty good base damage and a little MR goes a long way in the laning phase. By the time the laning phase ends I should have my deathcap and be able to burst down people quick. Plus the Abyssal works well with her ult.
I see people like Salce rush Deathcap. It's definitely viable. Probably comes down how the lane is going.
Did some number crunching. Here's some rough math.
An opponent with 50 mr (fairly good average for early game I think, more or less mattering if they gain mr per level, what runes they're running etc), you'd be penenalized for about 16% mr with normal masteries/runes/sorcs. 1% if you'r rocking abyssal and in aura range.
Full lvl Q with an Deathcap (roughly 190 ap):
363 - 58.08 = 304.92
W bonus armor from ap with Deathcap:
76x2 = 152
Full lvl Q with an Abyssal (70 ap and in aura range)
279 - 2.79 = 276.21
W with an Abyssal:
28x2 = 56
Even when deathcap is just it's components it does about the same Q damage, and more W as well as being cheaper. Take the MR higher to 100 (abyssal gives you about 30% reduction you have to get through, 40% on deathcap) and the deathcap still does more Q damage even when it's components alone.
An opponent with 50 mr (fairly good average for early game I think, more or less mattering if they gain mr per level, what runes they're running etc), you'd be penenalized for about 16% mr with normal masteries/runes/sorcs. 1% if you'r rocking abyssal and in aura range.
Full lvl Q with an Deathcap (roughly 190 ap):
363 - 58.08 = 304.92
W bonus armor from ap with Deathcap:
76x2 = 152
Full lvl Q with an Abyssal (70 ap and in aura range)
279 - 2.79 = 276.21
W with an Abyssal:
28x2 = 56
Even when deathcap is just it's components it does about the same Q damage, and more W as well as being cheaper. Take the MR higher to 100 (abyssal gives you about 30% reduction you have to get through, 40% on deathcap) and the deathcap still does more Q damage even when it's components alone.
Okay let's say you have 10 mr after your opponents reductions, and you're going to get hit with a 400 dmg spell. You only have one rank of W.
With deathcap (190 ap, 10 mr):
-Shield doesn't pop
400 * .90(mr) = 363 - 131 (shield) = 232 dmg
-Shield pops
400 * .90(mr) = 363 - 262 (shield) = 101 dmg
With Abyssal (70 ap, 67 mr)
-Shield doesn't pop
400 * .60 = 240 - 83 (shield) = 157 dmg
-Shield pops
400 * .60 = 240 - 166 (shield) = 74 dmg
What's it forgetting? It's rough and you can't factor in everything of course and it's about as simple as a example can come.
Point being that your damage is more with deathcap, and your suvivability isn't lowered that much and is actually better against non ap characters.
Not to mention getting deathcap first lets you pretty much clear waves with a single Q.
The game doesn't round them up for calculations (e.g., displays 9 MPen from runes, calculates 8.5) so it's 83.78% Damage Taken vs 98.67%; likewise, it is roughly 58.47% and 66.22% for the 100 MR sample.
Ignores the fact that Abyssal is granting +57 MR. So we're comparing 50 MR with a 152 point Shield vs 107 MR with a 56 point bonus Shield or 228 EHP vs ~116. Granted, that's vs Magic damage only but that's the most important part for a typical mid lane confrontation.
Abyssal first is done to help the fact that Diana needs to all-in for her kills and it helps reduce the damage she takes during it all. If we're measuring raw damage output, Deathcap is better (though, on that note, Deathcap is 182 effective AP, unless we're talking about base AP values in play here ... then those should have been factored into the Abyssal damage calculations). Deathcap is also less efficient gold spent per damage gained, I believe, and this is a bit more obvious as you look at damage per rotation rather than just raw numbers.
Apples to apples, Deathcap is 1k gold more than abyssal so if you plan on going Deathcap next you can factor in a blasting wand on top of the abyssal. That's an extra 40ap which amounts to 28 damage on the Q.
So for the same cost, you have the exact same damage on the Q (304.21 lol) and an extra 57MR.
I like seeing the numbers. It helps make decisions. I'd probably still rush Abyssal most of the time but if I'm ahead I can see a deathcap rush very easily.
True enough, should of thrown a wand in there to make it a better comparison. Even then, the deathcap out damages it by a slight margin, and your W most definitely does.
I think the new range on the abyssal is the thing that most puts me off it. To get the full effect of that thing you gotta be in that range, and I'm most certainly not always in that range when a Q lands. I'd say a good amount of them aren't.
Then those should be factored into the Abyssal calculations. Abyssal's MR shred makes all your AP more efficient.
2460 Gold for 120 AP vs 2650 Gold for 70 AP, 57 MR, -20 MR Reduction. If we're only talking about flat out raw damage numbers then, sure, Deathcap components will get you better damage per hit.
Abyssal is trading some of that damage for better trading power in lane. And to increase the efficiency of the rest of your AP items. It's the same logic behind why Athene's is being used more and more before an early Deathcap on many other AP Mids. The utility for it is great and Deathcap needs other AP items to build off of to really make it super efficient (it's about ~150 gold cheaper than 182 Gold would actually cost, I believe, which isn't that big of a deal compared to the net utility of other options).
This is a close case, though. Diana's ratios are all around where the tradeoff isn't as obvious as, say, Katarina. But Diana's all-in nature of her kit just gets a lot more out of the early Abyssal. Plus, it's not like she needs the Deathcap first for lane. Abyssal just makes it that much easier to win trades and force your lane out (if not outright kill them).
Edit: If nothing else, I'd certainly get it instead of the Rylai's :x
The curve makes it a bit harder to gauge where 600 is but it's not so bad. It definitely did hurt Diana a lot, though.
No I wasn't adding the base, I was roughly estimating how much your base would add to the 30% extra ap, not adding the actual base. Splitting hairs though.
Going deathcap allows me to do several things over abyssal.
-Go GA as a second item. (earlier the GA the better) I feel I wouldn't be packing enough AP otherwise. Almost the same kinda strat you saw that lee sin mid pull. Huge damage item (bloodthirster) into a GA.
-Push lanes with minimal effort.
-Poke at max range.
She is an all in champ, but I don't go all in until I've done a lot of poking. I'd be more willing to early haunting guise than abyssal myself.
The fact that there is a base means that they need to be calculated as well. Abyssal improves the damage added from them just as much as Deathcap is getting bonus AP from them.
If you have ~27 AP to get the +8 AP from Deathcap's +30%, that also means you have 27 AP dealing ~15% more damage with the Abyssal Scepter than they were without it.
I disagree. The GA isn't necessary until team fights start and you can get Abyssal + Deathcap both completed by then if you're on top of csing.
Honestly, those are the easiest Diana's for me to beat in lane. If I'm not getting QRW disengage harassed, it's basically the easiest lane in the world for me as Katarina.
Edit:
Bruiser builds are a bit different. There's not really a good option for more damage after the BT besides a second BT. GA lets them do what they need to do better.
Yup, E interrupts the ult. Makes using the ult to harass a little less easy to do. Though, it does mean I can try baiting it and it a whiffed E means I have the go ahead for the all-in.
While true, it also means I have 2600 gold of damage items on top of you going into early team fights. I'd rather have Abyssal/Deathcap into the GA rather than GA in between the Abyssal/Deathcap. Get scary before worrying about the revive potential.
GA without the damage (or utility, depending on champ) behind it isn't that big of a deal. But, I do agree that Deathcap into GA makes more sense than Abyssal into GA. I'd just rather Abyssal+Deathcap into the GA!
Head of Vengarl
Banned
So I installed this game last night. Haven't played it yet. I have only played one other MOBA before, and that's SMITE. I am aware that it is much different than LoL, it being in 3rd person and more of an action game and all. Still, I'm willing to give LoL a shot. How long do games usually last? And does GAF play together or do you all do your own thing?
40 min avg. Some longer, some shorter. GAF is afk a lot, gets together for some games against people other times and sometimes does a complete in house.
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