Not really. Just annoying when your team has a Bronze player and the other team has a "Gold" player as the only deviation outside of Silver. That can happen at any level though.
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League of Legends |OT4| No Country for Old Karma
- Thread starter kayos90
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Sona is a high-sustain, high multi-target burst mage that excels both in laning and in teamfights. In lane she out pokes most typical mids, is very dangerous at 6 and, with blue buff, she can virtually last forever in lane. Mid game she can turn teamfights around with her great multi-target burst.
I know what you're thinking...
"We've gone over this Subtle, Sona is not a viable AP mid! We're not about dat life."
I know, I know, just hear me out. I think Sona has what it takes to be a viable APC.
"But she has shit scaling, only two damaging abilities, and she's the squishiest champion in the game."
In this section we'll be going through each skill one by one.
Power Chord
This is Sona's hidden third damaging ability, and boy does it hurt. At level 18, a Staccato will do a whopping 618 damage. This is a very important ability for Sona and the reason I believe she's a viable AP Mid, but more on that later.
Hymn of Valor
The aura on this ability, while nice, is pretty unnoticeable. The reason this ability is so good is because of the active. It targets two people and scales really damn well(+0.7 per ability power). This and Power Chord are your two main poking tools early on.
At 50 ability power(what you have at around level 1-3) and this ability leveled twice, it will deal a hefty 135 damage. At level 18, with 500 ability power, it will deal 620 damage. With max CDR that's 600 damage every four seconds to two enemy champions.
For comparison:
Champion's Move (single/dual/multi target): Damage if you only hit one, damage if you only hit two.
Sona's Hymn of Valor (dual target): 620, or 1220 damage.
Annie's Disintegrate (single target): 595 damage.
Ahri's Orb of Deception (multi-target): 610, or 1220 damage.
Lux's Light Binding (dual target): 610, or 915 damage.
Brand's Sear (single target): 565 damage.
So, as you can see, Sona's Hymn of Valor is definitely up to snuff against some other common AP Mages.
Aria of Perseverance
This is the generally the reason it's commonly thought Sona has bad AP scaling. This ability is great early game and is where your sustain comes from. You can brush off enemy poke easily with this ability.
This ability, at 500 ability power, will heal you and an ally for 245 health.
For comparison:
Champion's Move (single/dual/multi target): Health given to yourself, total health given. MR and Defense given.
Sona's Aria of Perseverance (dual target): 245, or 490 health. 15 and 15.
Soraka's Astral Blessing (single target): 575 health. 0 and 105.
Nidalee's Primal Surge (single-target): 540 health. 0 and 0.
Song of Celerity
This is a nice little ability. It makes it so you don't need to prioritize boots and will make you uncatchable at max rank. Not much else to say though.
Crescendo
This is Sona's signature and it's very strong. An AOE stun that, at 500 ability power, will deal a whopping 750 damage. That's 750 damage, on top of a stun that leaves them vulnerable for more ass-whooping from your team. At level 6, a Flash+Crescendo+Hymn+Power Chord is a guaranteed kill.
For comparison:
Champion's Move (single/dual/multi target): Damage if you only hit one, damage if you only hit two.
Sona's Crescendo (multi-target): 750, or 1500 damage.
Annie's Summon Tibbers (multi-target): 800, or 1600 damage.
Brand's Pyroclasm (multi-target): 600, or 1200 damage.
Lux's Final Spark (multi-target): 875, or 1750 damage.
Full Combo
Summary: Sona does more damage than Lux and Annie over time(5 seconds), while Lux and Annie do more damage in a shorter time frame(3-4 seconds).
So what have we learned? Sona does damage. There's no denying it. However, it all depends on how much time your opponent will give you to do that damage. In lane all you really need is Q-R-PC because you should have them poked down enough that this combo will finish them. Mid and late game your combo is harder to pull off, but with Zhonya's Hourglass you can easily jump into the fight do half of your combo, use Zhonya's, then finish it off. I also recommend being creative with your ultimate use. Q-PC-W-AA-Zhonya's-R-AA-Q-PC is also a nice combo and it will keep your opponents on edge.
Starting Items
This is a safer start for Sona. It speaks for itself
Risky Starting Items
This is riskier since you have no wards and leave yourself open to ganks. However, you will have a lot of ability power and you will be a poking monster.
Core Items
Since Q and R are her only damaging abilities(other than her passive) Sona's autoattacks a very important. This is why we get Lich Bane. Her abilities are also easily spammable making Lich Bane an insanely good item on her. Athene's Unholy Grail for the ability power, cdr, and mana regen. These are all great stats for Sona. Zhonya's Hourglass help mitigate the short range of Sona in teamfights.
Secondary Items
This is where the build gets iffy and branches off. You can get one item here. Rabadon's Deathcap or Deathfire Grasp for the damage, or Morellonomicon for mana regen, and cdr. I personally find the cdr much more important, but if you find yourself in need of more burst, the other two items work well.
Boots
If you went with Rabadon's or Deathfire, you'll want the Ionian Boots of Lucidity for the cdr. If you went for Morellonomicon, you should go for the Sorcerer's Shoes.
Magic Penetration
If your enemies are stacking magic resist, then this is a good item. If you don't need the magic penetration, then I suggest getting another Secondary Item.
In lane you want to poke poke poke and heal off their poke. Quite a simple looking task, but it's easier said than done. Here are some of the champions you'll face in lane and how you'll fare against them.
Annie - The Darkchild -
Match-up: Skill based
Both of you have strong poke and a massive power spike at level 6. She doesn't have heal, so try your best to outpoke her. Whoever engages first at level 6 wins.
Akali - The Fist of Shadow -
Match-up: Easy
This is a very easy lane that's tipped heavily in your favor. HArass her and deny her farm. She'll most likely try to burst you down at level 6, but she'll be unable to. Use Crescendo to your advantage if she tries to use Twilight Shroud to escape.
Fiddlesticks - The Harbinger of Doom -
Match-up: Skill based
This scarecrow is squishy and has inferior poke. However, he has a strong heal. Other than his silence you shouldn't have much trouble with him. If you see him channeling his Crowstorm, use Crescendo to stop him.
Fizz - The Tidal Trickster -
Match-up: Easy
This silly fish might look scary, but he's no problem pre-6. Deny him farm and play aggressively. Once he turns 6 he'll probably be looking to burst you down, but, he simply can't. Chum the Waters has very low damage at level 1. This is a pretty easy lane if you keep harassing and deny him farm. Watch out though, since he'll try to dodge Crescendo with Playful/Trickster.
Heimerdinger - The Revered Inventor -
Match-up: Counter
This little guy is a massive bully. His wave clear is phenomenal and you'll have a very hard time getting close to him to poke. I highly advice not using Sona if you know your against Heimerdinger.
Kassadin - The Void Walker -
Match-up: Counter
Pre-6 you can harrass and heal off his damage without a problem. once he gets to level 6, you're pretty much a free kill for him since he does an insane amount of damage. You will get to level 6 before him so use this to your advantage! Get a kill on him before he gets to 6. Afterwards, you should probably just turret hug and watch as he scales into infinity while you're left in the dust.
Katarina - The Sinister Blade -
Match-up: Skill-based
This is an odd-lane. It's tipped highly in your favor since you have sustain, ranged harass and Crescendo which counters Death Lotus. Poke as much as you can and wait for her to use her Death Lotus so that you can use Crescendo. Even though the lane is in your favor, it's not an easy lane. Try stay ahead and always pay attention to Katarina.
Lux - The Lady of Luminosity -
Match-up: Skill-based
This a lane tipped in her favor. If you get caught with her snare when she has her ultimate, you're pretty much dead. Her poke is also great so it's hard to poke her back. It's a hard lane, but not entirely unwinnable.
Nidalee - The Bestial Huntress -
Match-up: Counter
Her Javelin Toss hits very hard. She counters most squishy casters. Her Javelin Toss is her only good move, so try to capitalize by poking while it's on cooldown.
Soraka - The Starchild -
Match-up: Easy
The ultimate battle! AP Soraka versus AP Sona! While I wish this battle would be closer, it's not. You out poke Soraka, but she out heals you. Pre-6 you might having a hard time, however once you get your ultimate she won't be able to do much to you. It's better to engage right after she uses Infuse so you don't Flash+Crescendo and then get silenced, unable to follow up.
Swain - The Master Tactician -
Match-up: Counter
This is a very hard lane for Sona. He's tanky, has sustain, and deals a lot of damage. Turret hug and try your best to poke. Once he hits 6 he'll just heal off all your poke and you'll be forced to turret hug.
Teemo - The Swift Scout -
Match-up: Easy
Very easy lane. I'd go as far as to say you're a hard counter to Teemo. Just heal off his Blinding Dart and poke him with Hymn of Valor. Power Chord still works when blinded. You can easily burst him down with Crescendo.
---
The more I use Sona the more counters I'll update this with. I also urge you all to try AP Sona and report back with your findings
! I really need to us espell chekcPhillipCostigan
Member
Those are some pretty sever changes to Aatrox. He's probably not going to be ready for next week then.
btw Subtle, I don't know what kind of Fizzs or Akalis you were playing against. Or Lux players for that matter. Fizz will easily burst you pre-6, Akali will melt you at 6 and Lux completely outranges you. I get what you're saying about Kat, but a decent Kat will love to play against Sona mid. It's nice that you found a champion you enjoy playing in an unorthodox role, but a lot of your information is incredibly disingenuous.
btw Subtle, I don't know what kind of Fizzs or Akalis you were playing against. Or Lux players for that matter. Fizz will easily burst you pre-6, Akali will melt you at 6 and Lux completely outranges you. I get what you're saying about Kat, but a decent Kat will love to play against Sona mid. It's nice that you found a champion you enjoy playing in an unorthodox role, but a lot of your information is incredibly disingenuous.
TF got a small QoL change on his Q
I wouldn't expect it unless someone at Riot works double shifts over the weekend.
I wouldn't expect it unless someone at Riot works double shifts over the weekend.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Nooooooo grandma!!
I know what will make you feel better. Here is a picture of killer waifu combo.
You better feel better. Do you know how risky it is to Google image for "ahri" in the office?
not really. most silver players whine all the time, blame jungler for everything, play stupidly aggressive even when losing and feeding, tower dive like morons, always go for kills instead of objectives, cs for shit, call gg at minute 2, engage without checking for teammates' ults/mana, whine about mias when having zero map awareness, don't ward even key objectives and then wonder why they get camped by the jungler, get wraiths instead of defending mid, steal blue buff from mid because adc needs it I guess?, buy shit items like hurricane first on varus or something, etc. etc.
and they do all of this while calling you a f***t or mentally challenged or whatever
the above are the standard in 80% of your silver and bronze games, and I've heard gold is not much better.
why can't we go back to nerfing thresh?
remember nerfing thresh?
wasn't that fun?
mobafire this shit bro
grow a thick skin and learn to mute people.
and really enjoy the matches in which people are actually nice and play as a team, because they're one in a million.
cool
Nooooooo grandma!!
I know what will make you feel better. Here is a picture of killer waifu combo.
You better feel better. Do you know how risky it is to Google image for "ahri" in the office?
that's cute, added it to my megafolder :3
Skyfireblaze
Member
Say am I the only one who has connection problems as of late? For the third day now I always have to restart my router or else I can't connect to LoL :/ It can authenticate my password just fine but afterwards it says "can't connect to PvP.net servers." I can't even ping the servers in a CMD
I rarely let someone that I don't even know in a game get under my skin. I'll pretty much just ignore people when they start bitching and moaning, especially about the smallest things. It's stupid. I'll never understand why people can't actually just be nice to each other and just win the game. I stand by what I said with how more ranked losses happen because of a team turning on itself more than anything else.
I've been having "attempting to reconnect" a bunch of times in games these past few days...Say am I the only one who has connection problems as of late? For the third day now I always have to restart my router or else I can't connect to LoL :/ It can authenticate my password just fine but afterwards it says "can't connect to PvP.net servers." I can't even ping the servers in a CMD
yesterday I was playing aram as leblanc, suddenly my game disconnects, half a minute later I'm in base with an extra kill lol
wth
he can go down out of inactivity
easily remedied by playing one teemo jungle game and feeding all match long
you must be stronger than I am
if I see people bitching about how I play I'll get on tilt like in two seconds
Not really.
Let's look at the numbers shall we.
Akali: 170(Q) + 113.32(E) + 375(R) = 658.32
Fizz: 70(Q) + 70(W) + 107.5(E) + 250(R) = 497.5
Sona Health at level 6: 760
So your memory must be really foggy or something. Everyone has 50 AP. Akali hits all three shadow dances in this scenario which is unlikely. This is also assuming Sona doesn't kill these champs first, since a good Sona will always keep these guys at low health with her poke. I don't feel the need to do one for Kata because it's pretty obvious Kat can't 100-0 anyone without her ultimate. Don't spread misinformation of my guide please.
O_O
I'll probably hit that point eventually. Someone is bound to push my buttons.
Say am I the only one who has connection problems as of late? For the third day now I always have to restart my router or else I can't connect to LoL :/ It can authenticate my password just fine but afterwards it says "can't connect to PvP.net servers." I can't even ping the servers in a CMD
Last night in the middle of a game I got "Attempting to Reconnect." I let it sit for about a minute or so and nothing happened. So I closed the game and when I tried to log back in it took much longer than normal. The connection on everything else I had running was fine though.
Really, it just comes down to that he's against people with bad mechanics. At that level of play, a lot of how certain matchups go don't work out simply by virtue of terrible plays. For instance, Fizz has an ideal matchup against anything that works on auto-attack triggers or skillshots since he can completely bypass it. On top of that, he has a built-in anti-sustain and he's naturally good against auto-attack harass anyway due to his passive.
Your "guide" is nothing but bad information that is entirely based around bad players playing poorly. Yes, Fizz will eat you alive at 6 (realistically, at 2 or 3). Akali can decimate you with minimal charges, much less three. Katarina is not about the one-and-done 100-0 burst anyway. You can throw out numbers all you want (that don't represent their actual all-in combos anyway) but that's where theorycrafting breaks down, especially when it's based off bad math (what are these builds? Fizz with maxed W and not factoring execute damage and his AAs? Akali without the double Q and AAs?).
I have no problem with you wanting to be unconventional and play something like Sona as an AP Mid but please understand why things actually work the way they do. You cannot leave out the factor of the player involved on both sides. Maybe you outplayed them. Maybe they have no idea what they're doing. Maybe many other things.
what are auto attacks?
anyone
knows if you get more exp if you kill a minion rather than standing next to it when it dies?
your math is kinda wrong since it's ignoring autoattack damage (which matters since both fizz and akali have autos as part of their combos, and it's like 40-50 damage per auto after armor I think), plus akali's 100-0 combo is Q, wait for Q cooldown, R, proc Q, Q, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, proc'ing the second Q somewhere in there.
but other than that, I think your problem is looking for someone that can 100-0 you in one combo. most mids won't 100-0 anyone with mr runes: annie, lux, diana, syndra, no one will deal 760 damage at level 6 in one simple combo. a skilled syn can sorta do it if she has blue buff or cdr runes but yeah...
edit: akali on my above combo will deal about 750 damage now that I think about it.
edit2: full lux combo Q E ult auto detonate e auto will deal 720 damage pre-resistances (plus scaling and spellblade), so yeah, not even 500, just 90-0 is pretty feasible. this is why I base myself on how much health bar is filled rather than numbers
500hp is more like it and sona doesn't have on-demand disengage (outside of her high cd ult) to deal with an 500 damage in your face akali. if sona blows her ult and doesn't get a kill (which I imagine is hard at level 6 without sheen and cdr to get another passive off) she's effectively zoned out of lane because of her shitty range.
scy
mhm
your math is kinda wrong since it's ignoring autoattack damage (which matters since both fizz and akali have autos as part of their combos, and it's like 40-50 damage per auto after armor I think), plus akali's 100-0 combo is Q, wait for Q cooldown, R, proc Q, Q, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, proc'ing the second Q somewhere in there.
but other than that, I think your problem is looking for someone that can 100-0 you in one combo. most mids won't 100-0 anyone with mr runes: annie, lux, diana, syndra, no one will deal 760 damage at level 6 in one simple combo. a skilled syn can sorta do it if she has blue buff or cdr runes but yeah...
edit: akali on my above combo will deal about 750 damage now that I think about it.
edit2: full lux combo Q E ult auto detonate e auto will deal 720 damage pre-resistances (plus scaling and spellblade), so yeah, not even 500, just 90-0 is pretty feasible. this is why I base myself on how much health bar is filled rather than numbers
500hp is more like it and sona doesn't have on-demand disengage (outside of her high cd ult) to deal with an 500 damage in your face akali. if sona blows her ult and doesn't get a kill (which I imagine is hard at level 6 without sheen and cdr to get another passive off) she's effectively zoned out of lane because of her shitty range.
Same EXP.
Plus, it matters a lot to have the right combo. For instance, Fizz will do the following: Rank 1 Q, Rank 1 W, Rank 3 E, Rank 1 R. His combo is to catch you with his R, activate W, Q in, Auto-attack, pursue with AAs until he needs to E, and then one last AA after landing from his E. Assuming he lands the minimum auto-attacks (2), that's:
1x R, 1x Q, 3x W Passive triggers (at varying times), 3x W Active triggers, 1x E, 2x AA
Which is still hard to reflect a bit since W Passive is a 3s DoT (that deals execute damage) so it's most likely 5 ticks at varying levels of damage. So, really, we do get around to 75-80 damage off the DoT before AP but I'll just say 70 here. Assuming a fairly typical Fizz build, we're looking at around 80 AD (71 base at 6 + Masteries) and we're giving him 50 AP for this scenario so we have:
250 (R) + 10 (Q) + 70 (W, Passive) + 30 (W, Active) + 170 (E) + 3.0 tAD (2 AA, Q) + 3.0 AP (Ratios*) = ~920 damage pre-mitigation. Then we need to factor that this combo probably led with a Level 6 Ignite (170 Damage) so we really only have 590 post-mitigation to deal vs a 760 HP target which is around 790-ish damage pre-mitigation for average Armor/MR levels for 25% mitigation (35-ish).
*Technically, it's more (60% Q, 35% Passive W, 35% Active W per hit, 75% E, 100% R) but I wanted to keep it simple. Realistically, we're looking at 60% (Q), 60% (Passive W of 5 ticks), 105% (Active W for 3 hits), 75% E, and 100% (R) for 400% AP scaling.
Skyfireblaze
Member
Well I'm glad it isn't just me though it's really strange, my friends can be online while I don't find the server o.o It's not my PC either because I tried pinging the servers from my iPhone and that was a no-go aswell :/ It does work immediately after I restart my router...
the question is what gives more pleasure
alright, I'll try to remember this time
yeah, personally I don't play fizz so I didn't know about him, but his akali combo was lacking the key second Q part, plus autos damage.
also I totally forgot about ignite lol
this is what I get for playing aram all day
For the record, the EXP thing applies to Champions as well I believe. It's just an even split of the EXP for all people involved (or just in the 1600 EXP range).
Though, minion EXP range is a bit lower (1200). The more you know, I guess?
I don't play much Fizz either but playing a lot of TT recently and suddenly Fizz (and wtf, fucking Annie?) everywhere so I had to learn his all-in damages at every level ;__;
fyi, Level 3 Fizz can do like all of the damages ever
Though, minion EXP range is a bit lower (1200). The more you know, I guess?
I don't play much Fizz either but playing a lot of TT recently and suddenly Fizz (and wtf, fucking Annie?) everywhere so I had to learn his all-in damages at every level ;__;
fyi, Level 3 Fizz can do like all of the damages ever
Sona is a terrible, terrible, terrible midlaner and you are playing against bad players. As someone that is a silver player now, who has been completely terrible at this game and played against the Bronze V (dat 900 elo) people, while also having opportunities to play against Diamond level players allow me to give you some friendly advice: You need to learn to contextualize your game experiences.
Having excellent results against people that don't even understand what they're doing does not constitute data. Basically, nothing you do in bronze level games is actually relevant to making any sort of global conclusions about the differences between champions in any fashion; you can take any champion you want and make it work at an extremely high level because you're trying and at least half your opponents are not. Silver level games it becomes a case by case basis where you have to start evaluating the actual quality of your opponent and the decisions they have made; whether their errors are forced or unforced, if you're actually making plays or simply following up, and whether your mistakes are being appropriately punished (Example: Picking Sona mid).
You're also awfully combative for someone that is knowingly picking something that many experienced and skilled players are telling you is completely invalid as a legitimate strategy. No one is denying that it works for -you-, but you need to color your fancy detailed guide with many caveats about your level of play and the level of play at which your strategies work; if someone new and random is taken in by your use of graphics and effort into believing it's a strong strategy you're doing a disservice to them and the community as a whole.
Amongst the other critiques of your guide I absolutely must ask: Why are your matchup listings so strange? You put a ton of champions as counters/enemy picks that see -zero- competitive or normal solo queue play at all (Teemo, Soraka, Heimer, Fiddle?!?! wtf) but completely left out picks like Khaz, Zed, Quinn, Karthus, Kennen, Ryze, Gragas, Diana, Syndra. In fact you left out the entirety of the high quality mid champion pool and picked a vast majority of champions that no one plays at all.
From this data it very much appears you play a lot of low skill level blind pick games. While completely legitimate as a way to play the game this is simply not the type of experience that should be channeled into an 'authoritative' sounding guide.
Did you know that client chat is Jabber-based, so you can set up your favorite Jabber client (even smartphone app I guess) to work with it and continue reading GAF without the need to launch game client in order to appear online, be able to send and receive messages to your friend list and pretend that you're going to play.
I have a couple that sprout on the side of my head every once in a while. People at work never fail to remind me they're there.
Or you're turning into a yeti.
Inskipp
Member
I personally find having shorter CD's super vital for Fizz.
It's probably up to preference though. if you're smart with your skill-use, you can probably get away with maxing W.
It is. I tend to always go after W first if they are a ranged and/or have bad sustain or burst healing where I can aa through it. On ranged a high W means your autoattacks are winning vs theirs+their skills 90% of the time when you're in their face, and if they have bad sustain even 1-2 Qs with a chunk of their health missing will either force them to run or risk a burst combo with the passive DoT
E is definitely the safer choice for getting away, defense against whatever, or slowing melee champs up, but as you said he gets very mana hungry when that skill gets leveled. It also helps break through things like Diana shields or clears Elise spidery things, and all but negates the effect of an early boots. It's his best burst outside his ult too before items come in from the on-hits.
Then again, I'm still stuck in Bronze so maybe I'm just bad at him. At least I gave reasoning for everything, yea? In my elo there is also the high chance of getting a bad enemy jungler, a "good" one would mean a lower E CD would be life-saving at least a few times.
Fizz is so polarizing to me in that regard. I have a stupidly easy time vs his "easy" matchups or people that just don't know how to play vs him, but his counterpicks give me so much trouble. I hope I continue to improve on him.
Sr Kitsune
Member
As a fellow Fizz player (who is also just "average"). Who do you think are easy matchups?
The most easy matchups I have had with him where against Katarina, Karthus, and Ryze (I play with my Full MR(and reds magic penetration) rune page. They usually play too cocky just because they put Ryze as a counter against Fizz in some websites (like championselect), and end losing trades and then the lane).
My worst games with Fizz has been against a Pantheon mid and Lissandra.
I'm no master, so maybe I'll try maxing E next time. Might have to get a flask to be safe until I'm more efficient with his kit.
PhillipCostigan
Member
idk how to even respond to all this so imma just say well done corgi
I tore it off
so it never happened, right?
he's a direct counter against any skillshot reliant mid, but also on-hit champions like tf.
so basically lux, brand, syndra, orianna, anivia, karthus, etc.
basically if you ever play against me pick fizz.
of course those mids should abuse their range and force fizz into bad positions or wasting his e and overall outplay him if they want to get kills.
And yet people like voyboy play crazy shit at the highest level and make it work too. Let him have fun playing and talking about unconventional picks. What difference does it make to you? Also you didn't even explain why sona is bad or why anything in his guide is wrong, you just kinda said "it sounds like you're bad, you shouldnt be allowed to write guides" which I think is pretty awful
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