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League of Legends |OT8| Goodbye, Promos.

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L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
Amumu is just like other solo queue champs like Rammus, Blitz, Akali, Yi, Kat, etc. In the hands of a good player they can stomp at low elos but at higher tiers people know how to deal with them. For Amumu, it's counter-jungling him early, knowing the speed of his Q, and spreading out to avoid the ult.
 
N

Newt

Member
Lone_Prodigy said:
Amumu is just like other solo queue champs like Rammus, Blitz, Akali, Yi, Kat, etc. In the hands of a good player they can stomp at low elos but at higher tiers people know how to deal with them. For Amumu, it's counter-jungling him early, knowing the speed of his Q, and spreading out to avoid the ult.
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At higher tiers people don't know how to deal with Amumu either. He's probably just not a balanced champion at the moment. Same with Rammus and Fiddle.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
Lone_Prodigy said:
Amumu is just like other solo queue champs like Rammus, Blitz, Akali, Yi, Kat, etc. In the hands of a good player they can stomp at low elos but at higher tiers people know how to deal with them.
Click to expand...

No they don't. Win rates for any of those champions doesn't significantly change across Elo ranges. There isn't a single champion in solo queue whose win rates significantly vary from Bronze to Diamond. Win rates vary in master and challenger, but that has as much to do with small sample sizes for low play rate champions as it does with these players magically knowing how to deal with them. Why these myths continue is beyond me.
 
P

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
i dont care anymore

im going to gain elo or get gold v trying, may the elo gods have mercy on me.

twitch.tv/pandagaf
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
Pandaman said:
i dont care anyone.

im going to gain elo or get gold v trying, may the elo gods have mercy on me.

twitch.tv/pandagaf
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How is that I cant' watch a single youtube video at work and yet somehow Twitch isn't blocked?

As someone who's played a whopping grand total of 3 top lane matches in nearly 1.5 years, should I play Sion or Gnar? Gonna end up practicing both, just want to see which would be more newbie friendly.

Ferrio said:
Janna?

Fuck janna, the anti rammus.
Click to expand...

Unless Janna is able to counter gank Rammus during every gank attempt throughout the map she hasn't stopped him doing what he wants to do.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
drawkcaB said:
No they don't. Win rates for any of those champions doesn't significantly change across Elo ranges. There isn't a single champion in solo queue whose win rates significantly vary from Bronze to Diamond. Win rates vary in master and challenger, but that has as much to do with small sample sizes for low play rate champions as it does with these players magically knowing how to deal with them. Why these myths continue is beyond me.
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http://www.lolking.net/champions/amumu&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=bronze#statistics

It depends what you call "significantly", but look at the Amumu win rate chart in Bronze. Almost every data point is 55% or higher.

In Silver, it's similar but slightly lower. In Gold and above, almost every data point is under 55% as far as I saw.
 
B

Bacon

Member
drawkcaB said:
How is that I cant' watch a single youtube video at work and yet somehow Twitch isn't blocked?

As someone who's played a whopping grand total of 3 top lane matches in nearly 1.5 years, should I play Sion or Gnar? Gonna end up practicing both, just want to see which would be more newbie friendly.
Click to expand...

I say Gnar. He is super strong right now and a ton of fun to play on top of that.

There is a bit of a learning curve to him but I think he's worth learning.
 
N

Negaduck

Member
drawkcaB said:
How is that I cant' watch a single youtube video at work and yet somehow Twitch isn't blocked?

As someone who's played a whopping grand total of 3 top lane matches in nearly 1.5 years, should I play Sion or Gnar? Gonna end up practicing both, just want to see which would be more newbie friendly.



Unless Janna is able to counter gank Rammus during every gank attempt throughout the map she hasn't stopped him doing what he wants to do.
Click to expand...

Sion isn't too hard but you have to know when to go in or back out as he doesn't have great mobility outside ult. Gnar might be easier as he is ranged and doesn't have mana.

Next time I play I'll hit you up if you want to spectate a match of me playing sion
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
t = 0.95?

I don't really know what answer you're expecting out of me to be honest. How about that an average diamond player spamming 100 Amumu games will have a 52-48 record while a. average bronze player will have a 55-45 record. That's what, half a division's worth of LP? That to me is insignificant.

Certainly doesn't strike me as "knows how to deal with it" at any rate.

baconbm said:
I say Gnar. He is super strong right now and a ton of fun to play on top of that.
Click to expand...

Negaduck said:
Gnar might be easier as he is ranged and doesn't have mana.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I might do that. I was on the fence because he has a high ban rate now. Gonna end up playing them both at any rate. I'm not too fussed about it. I just want to some experience in the role. Outside of Gnar any top laner I plan on using is actually a jungler or mid who can fit into the role.
 
N

Negaduck

Member
Most junglers can rock the top lane and vice versa (outside Garen (well he can jungle just not well) and renek and karth (I mean really anyone can jungle if you wanna get wacky))

Mids that can also top are kinda few. Zed/has/karth/ryze.

Good tops are ryze/gnar/Mao/mundo

Mao is really good because he can jungle and top.
 
L

Lone_Prodigy

Member
drawkcaB said:
No they don't. Win rates for any of those champions doesn't significantly change across Elo ranges. There isn't a single champion in solo queue whose win rates significantly vary from Bronze to Diamond. Win rates vary in master and challenger, but that has as much to do with small sample sizes for low play rate champions as it does with these players magically knowing how to deal with them. Why these myths continue is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think there are too many variables in this game to gather any meaningful conclusions from data. Maybe the win rates for those champs at lower tiers are skewed because of people thinking they're good? Maybe someone is really good but just ends up losing all the time?

In higher tiers, the data is skewed because of the low pick rate. Maybe people who actually play those champs are really really good with them, increasing the win rate? And then that is offset by people who think they're really really good with them?

At the end of the day, you're left with the general consensus that tiers are organized by skill, and that a snowballing/easier-to-play champ would probably have more success in a game of low-skilled players than a game of high-skilled players. And anecdotes.
 
B

brian!

Member
uh just think about champs and their kits, and the kits they go up against
saying look this champ wins a lot doesnt give you a lot of meaningful information unless they are like this consistent outlier

like data is a good starting point for an idea but a lot of ppl are like my argument is dis data
 
N

Newt

Member
You guys are just overthinking it. Champions like Amumu have a high winrate in every division because they're easy to play and do well with, and there's really no other factors.
 
B

brian!

Member
shyv ana
galio
renekton
nocturne

thos are all prtty easy to play and to do well with
and some of them you can def think about popular matchups atm rather than anything inherent about them when u think about winrate

lucian's winrate is also like 48, i dunno if thats low or high but its not like 55 or something

i dunno it's common sense that this is a constantly changing game with more things going besides whether a champ is easy to win with or not
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
One win down, 2 to go.

I'm a bad Lucian player. I actually lost a game with him a few days ago

nKiRYYK.png
 
N

Newt

Member
brian! said:
shyv ana
galio
renekton
nocturne

thos are all prtty easy to play and to do well with
and some of them you can def think about popular matchups atm rather than anything inherent about them when u think about winrate

lucian's winrate is also like 48, i dunno if thats low or high but its not like 55 or something

i dunno it's common sense that this is a constantly changing game with more things going besides whether a champ is easy to win with or not
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None of these champions are easy to do well with, but I agree they're easy to play. I guess my question was almost rhetorical. There are no champions that are easy to play, easy to do well with that have a low winrate. Also, Shyvanna is not really easy to play, tbh. Galio has a fairly high winrate too.

I feel like your lack of solo q experience isn't really helping you identify which champions are easy to do well with, tbh.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
baconbm said:
That's a shame. I love his ganks, lots of kill potential if you can get good follow up.
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Yep. He gets brutalized in the S5 jungle on the early clears. I don't quit know why just going by his numbers. Then again I don't know why has a hard-ish time the S4 jungle either compared to guys like Naut, Rammus, and Gargas. With further nerfs directed at top lane Maokai still possible, his jungle ain't lookin' pretty.

Then again, he can do one thing in the S5 jungle which is potentially phenomenal: he get hit level 2 by ~2:05 because the chickens give enough experience to do that. Level 2 ganks on mid before half the minions of the first wave are even dead is amazing.

Lone_Prodigy said:
Personally, I think there are too many variables in this game to gather any meaningful conclusions from data. Maybe the win rates for those champs at lower tiers are skewed because of people thinking they're good? Maybe someone is really good but just ends up losing all the time?

In higher tiers, the data is skewed because of the low pick rate. Maybe people who actually play those champs are really really good with them, increasing the win rate? And then that is offset by people who think they're really really good with them?

At the end of the day, you're left with the general consensus that tiers are organized by skill, and that a snowballing/easier-to-play champ would probably have more success in a game of low-skilled players than a game of high-skilled players. And anecdotes.
Click to expand...

Yes, while you have to take and interpret the data, at the end of the day it's the only reliably information we have. If champion X really did perform better or worse at varying skill levels, it should be present somewhere in the win rates, but it never is.
 
N

Nekofrog

Banned
how can i carry as an 8-1 irelia when i roam and snowball my adc... but my adc buys essence reaver/bork and does no damage?
 
B

brian!

Member
Newt said:
None of these champions are easy to do well with, but I agree they're easy to play. I guess my question was almost rhetorical. There are no champions that are easy to play, easy to do well with that have a low winrate. Also, Shyvanna is not really easy to play, tbh. Galio has a fairly high winrate too.

I feel like your lack of solo q experience isn't really helping you identify which champions are easy to do well with, tbh.
Click to expand...

i mean unless ur statement is literally "they are good in this meta", I don't agree at all with what you are saying
having more solo q experience literally just means you have more anecdotal evidence, like it really doesnt mean shit i think

yah i used the daily tab which doesnt show a lot of games lemme use the weekly tab and see whats up

the only real champ I would add is mundo, the rest do have to work a little harder

in terms of high winrate ez champs, these dont ring out as particularly ez to me (not like trist, rammus, fid lvl)

talon
shaco
singed
anivia

shyv is prtty ez, i dunno what ur talking about
she doesn't do well against popular tops, mids, and has no utility mids/supports that really help her out right now, which was the case when she was popular

if you were trying to pick out a tank top with a good teleport shes up there for sure

like it's actually hard to tell what you mean when you say "easy to win with" beyond, "they are strong right now", which then yeah, if a champ is strong in the meta then they are strong in the meta, but the reason that they are strong in the meta isn't "they are strong in the meta"

i mean im not saying straightforward kits that are easier to pull off dont contribute to winrate, but it'd be rlly really difficult to ascribe that as the one reason certain champs are doing well
 
N

Newt

Member
brian! said:
i mean unless ur statement is literally "they are good in this meta", I don't agree at all with what you are saying
having more solo q experience literally just means you have more anecdotal evidence, like it really doesnt mean shit i think

yah i used the daily tab which doesnt show a lot of games lemme use the weekly tab and see whats up

the only real champ I would add is mundo, the rest do have to work a little harder

in terms of high winrate ez champs, these dont ring out as particularly ez to me (not like trist, rammus, fid lvl)

talon
shaco
singed
anivia

shyv is prtty ez, i dunno what ur talking about
she doesn't do well against popular tops, mids, and has no utility mids/supports that really help her out right now, which was the case when she was popular

if you were trying to pick out a tank top with a good teleport shes up there for sure

like it's actually hard to tell what you mean when you say "easy to win with" beyond, "they are strong right now", which then yeah, if a champ is strong in the meta then they are strong in the meta, but the reason that they are strong in the meta isn't "they are strong in the meta"

i mean im not saying straightforward kits that are easier to pull off dont contribute to winrate, but it'd be rlly really difficult to ascribe that as the one reason certain champs are doing well
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A champion being easy to play is just something you can identify after playing a champion or having experience with them in solo q. You're getting confused with a champion being easy to win with and them being meta. They're two different things. I'm not saying a straight forward and easy to use kit is something that determines every champions winrate, but it definitely the biggest factor for someone like Amumu/Rammus.
 
B

brian!

Member
i dunno you need to explain it to me then, because rammus amumu and fid didnt always put up high winrate numbers and have not really significantly changed that much
amumu always had the same kit

if it's just a feel, I mean
I just don't know about the logic of like
"man these champs sure feel strong when i play/am against them in solo q", "wow their winrates are high, looks like my feelings are accurate"
like what is that kind of thing supposed to do for someone trying to think about the game, it's completely superficial
things feel strong for a reason

like amumu was a joke meme for a while; what exactly happened to make him so easy or to start achieving a higher winrate
perhaps
the game around him changed????
things about his kit started fitting particular playstyles in particular metas well????

i dunno im gonna keep repeating that things aren't strong because they feel strong, that makes no sense
 
N

Newt

Member
brian! said:
i dunno you need to explain it to me then, because rammus amumu and fid didnt always put up high winrate numbers and have not really significantly changed that much
Click to expand...
I have been playing since late season two, and since then they've all put up high numbers. All three actually had higher numbers in the past.
 
N

Nekofrog

Banned
a champion doesn't have to be changed to suddenly find success

a lot of what makes a champion suddenly good is what changes around him/her
 
B

brian!

Member
Nekofrog said:
a champion doesn't have to be changed to suddenly find success

a lot of what makes a champion suddenly good is what changes around him/her
Click to expand...

right that's what im saying
so what do I get out of someone saying something like champs have high winrates because they are easy to play/win with

Newt said:
I have been playing since late season two, and since then they've all put up high numbers. All three actually had higher numbers in the past.
Click to expand...

me too and this was not the case
that's not even what we are discussing anyway
 
B

brian!

Member
i'm not saying they are strong because they are meta man
I'm saying the statement that something is strong because they feel strong is fallacious, that there are various (and important) reasons that champs exist where they do

I think you are on to something when you talk about champs being easy and strong clocking higher numbers because of that, but the idea that this is the end all of the conversation really rubs me the wrong way

like if you guys can gang up on heavy for spreading misinformation....

and to be clear when I talk about "meta" I just mean "the current environment" which basically means trends (what kind of champs go to which lanes, which champs are picked and banned a lot, which champs are fotm, etc.)
 
N

Newt

Member
brian! said:
i'm not saying they are strong because they are meta man
I'm saying the statement that something is strong because they feel strong is fallacious, that there are various (and important) reasons that champs exist where they do

I think you are on to something when you talk about champs being easy and strong clocking higher numbers because of that, but the idea that this is the end all of the conversation really rubs me the wrong way

like if you guys can gang up on heavy for spreading misinformation....

and to be clear when I talk about "meta" I just mean "the current environment"
Click to expand...
I'm just gonna disregard your stuff "the current environment" because these champions have always been a problem. The current environment is pretty irrelevant here. The statement "this champion is easy to do well with" is pretty broad, and encompasses a lot of different aspects of the champions being mentioned. Amumu and Fiddle aren't powerful in solo q for exactly the same reason, and there is different reasons that they can perform well. Although their kits are different, there is still properties that makes them less difficult than other champions of their class. Champions like Amumu, Fiddle and Rammus probably wouldn't exist in their current states if they were being designed today.
 
B

brian!

Member
i agree with the last part, but I think the current environment is the main thing you should think about

think about what junglers ppl were complaining about just a few months ago...

I also agree with those 3 as being strong because of dated design

but these junglers never existed on the same level as the most recent "problem" jungler batch
or other similar batches, like zac or nunu

ugh I guess I shouldn't be so coy and just say outright that these junglers show up and win more in large part because other junglers have been diminished in various ways
the ease of their kit is something that has been constant, but the environment is not. this is a meta change. it's the same as when assassins start popping up in mid instead of utility aps; it's because space was made for them to be more successful.

i mean, if you intend what you said as a general statement about whether a champ is strong right now or not, which I brought up before, you can't get away with saying something is strong just because they are easy to play and win with, that's like a nothing statement
 
N

Newt

Member
brian! said:
i agree with the last part, but I think the current environment is the main thing you should think about

think about what junglers ppl were complaining about just a few months ago...

I also agree with those 3 as being strong because of dated design

but these junglers never existed on the same level as the most recent "problem" jungler batch
or other similar batches, like zac or nunu
Click to expand...
These junglers have always had very high winrates. Higher than Kha'Zix, higher than Lee Sin and higher than Elise. Of couse, they didn't see much competitive play, but we're talking about solo q anyways. People aren't even complaining about those three right now. Amumu has a ban rate of less than 1%.
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
Newt said:
These junglers have always had very high winrates. Higher than Kha'Zix, higher than Lee Sin and higher than Elise. Of couse, they didn't see much competitive play, but we're talking about solo q anyways.
Click to expand...

higher win rates but with much less people playing them, so it's not black and white. Rammus always had a high win rate, but nobody played him so it was a small sample size.

Lee Sin, Elise and Eve or whatever had much, much bigger sample sizes because they were better and more valued picks. The champions you mentioned didn't really become decent picks (except maybe Amumu) until Quill Coat was added and Golem therefore changed,
 
T

Type2

Member
I think what Newt is trying to say is that in the case of rammus and amumu they sit at a low risk position in the jungle while having good clears and nearly unbeatable cc patterns. Rammus single target lock down is disgusting and putting most forms of cc between him still wont guarantee an escape. For amumus case solo Que players hive mind (often when on the run) and even a single good ult can turn the game.
fiddle kit has annoying rng,high base numbers where he can carry with just a zhonya through typical solo Que warding patterns. Fear feels so shitty as a form of cc to be up against.

I'm personally fine playing against all these champs but team picks and coordination are required.

On another note I kind of wish sightstones built into something like the season 5 jungle items. I'd like some diversity in my static items.
 
N

Newt

Member
PhillipCostigan said:
higher win rates but with much less people playing them, so it's not black and white. Rammus always had a high win rate, but nobody played him so it was a small sample size.

Lee Sin, Elise and Eve or whatever had much, much bigger sample sizes because they were better and more valued picks. The champions you mentioned didn't really become decent picks (except maybe Amumu) until Quill Coat was added and Golem therefore changed,
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This is where the problem is, I see. You just have to accept that these champions have always been strong, and recent changes haven't had that much of an effect. Old Golem was just fine on Amumu, and he didn't even build golem half the time. The sample size was more than large enough to indicate the strength of these champions. Just because a champion is strong, doesn't mean that they have to be popular.
 
B

brian!

Member
I brought up those popular junglers to describe an environment where they are picked to a crazy extent; this is why I say don't use stats as a means to an end

like we don't have specific numbers, but here's like a really easy example
let's say the pickrate has increased greatly now compared to before when certain picks dominated like crazy; in this situation we have a winrate that is more accurate to describe solo q strength vs. a winrate that is modified heavily by it's lower pickrate. it's the same reason you have weird outliers when you search for high winrates with a low population/or high winrates with a low pick rate

the information you had before doesn't mean the same thing it does now

i dunno, every amumu I played against in high plat low diamond normals during s2/s3 w/ gaf got pooped on a lot because the conditions for amumu to do well (mainly map information, but also other things) were more scarce

Type2 said:
I think what Newt is trying to say is that in the case of rammus and amumu they sit at a low risk position in the jungle while having good clears and nearly unbeatable cc patterns. Rammus single target lock down is disgusting and putting most forms of cc between him still wont guarantee an escape. For amumus case solo Que players hive mind (often when on the run) and even a single good ult can turn the game.
fiddle kit has annoying rng,high base numbers where he can carry with just a zhonya through typical solo Que warding patterns. Fear feels so shitty as a form of cc to be up against.

I'm personally fine playing against all these champs but team picks and coordination are required.

On another note I kind of wish sightstones built into something like the season 5 jungle items. I'd like some diversity in my static items.
Click to expand...

I think it's more that they have easy (flashable) to land gamechanging skills; these are things that are easier to avoid in certain conditions and harder in others. this depends on whats being picked, how the game is being played, etc.

no one is saying they don't have strength that is embedded in their kit, it's just really odd to me to say that this is some consistent strength that has nothing to do with anything else
and it really gives ppl reading the thread the wrong idea and promotes this pls nerf riot reddit style thinking
 
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