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LGBTQIA+ |OT9| The Return of the Queen

berzeli

Banned
Except you ignore the key part of the definition which is using it as a basis for saying one race is superior to another. Otherwise saying all caucasian people have light skin would be considered racist since that is ascribing a characteristic to a whole race.

Saying one race is more sexually attractive as an objective judgement would be considered racist; however, people are making a subjective judgement when describing their own personal likes or dislikes.
Dude. I do address that part
(and yes saying that a race is more sexually attractive is saying that that race is superior, in least in some aspect)

And no, it's not just some "subjective judgement". Is it also a "subjective judgement" when a person says say they hate (all) black people or is that too their "own personal like or dislike"?
Making a judgement call on an entire ethnicity based solely on said ethnicity is racist.
 

edgefusion

Member
Saying one race is more sexually attractive as an objective judgement would be considered racist; however, people are making a subjective judgement when describing their own personal likes or dislikes.

I don't understand this. This is contradictory? According to you it's not okay to say "All black people are ugly" but it is okay to say "I find all black people ugly". It's the exact same thing.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Your standards of beauty and attraction are at least in part ingrained into you by society. If you live in a racially unequal society then some of that passes on into your own attitudes. This is call "internalized prejudice", and it's why some women among the more conservative areas of the US believe that their sexs role is truly as domestic caretakers.

It seems to me in the gay community "it's just the preference" is the dating equivalent of "some of my best friends are black". The idea of preference being innate instead of conditioned tries to remove personal responsibility from what is conscious decision making, i.e. it's just how it is and there's nothing they can do to change it, and thus they don't need to. And, since you can't be born racist, and that they believe they were just born like this, they can't actually be racist themselves.

There's also the varying levels of racism that's all thrown under the same umbrella of "racist". There's the overt kind, where white people are burning down black churches and calling blacks the n-word. But there's also the subtle, insidious kind, where prospective employees with "untraditional" names get passed over for "normal" (read: white christian) names. Where teenagers enthusiastically engage with music from black artists but remain cloistered in their all-white (or all-asian as the case may be across the pond) social bubbles. When people hear "racist", they think of the former. The hate crimes, the trolling, the antagonism.

But I would argue that it's the latter that contributes most to oppression of minorities. No one robs you of opportunity when they yell a slur at your face. It's a moment of sadness and anger that disappears with the next day. It's the systematic prejudice that's really damaging. Children being shunted off to poorer schools, actors missing out on bigger roles, gentrification and white flight. All these things are the real obstacles to creating a multi-cultural society because they suppress the rate of change.

And I see the Grindr phenomenon as just part of that. I don't think it's coincidence blacks are so undesirable among both the gay and the straight dating scene, and that will never change if people just hide behind their "preferences" rather than engage in honest introspection. Because those preferences get passed on. They didn't come from nowhere, and they don't stop at yourself. It's a pattern that keeps repeating as long as you're contributing to it.
 
Your standards of beauty and attraction are at least in part ingrained into you by society. If you live in a racially unequal society then some of that passes on into your own attitudes. This is call "internalized prejudice", and it's why some women among the more conservative areas of the US, believe that their sexs role is truly as domestic caretakers.

It seems to me in the gay community "it's just the preference" is the dating equivalent of "some of my best friends are black". The idea of preference being innate instead of conditioned tries to remove personal responsibility from what is conscious decision making, i.e. it's just how it is and there's nothing they can do to change it, and thus they don't need to. And, since you can't be born racist, and that they believe they were just born like this, they can't actually be racist themselves.

There's also the varying levels of racism that's all thrown under the same umbrella of "racist". There's the overt kind, where white people are burning down black churches calling blacks the n-word. But there's also the subtle, insidious kind, where prospective employees with "untraditional" names get passed over for "normal" (read: white christian) names. Where teenagers enthusiastically engage with music from black artists but remain cloistered in their all-white (or all-asian as the case may be across the pond) social bubbles. When people hear "racist", they think of the former. The hate crimes, the trolling, the antagonism.

But I would argue that it's the latter that contributes most to oppression of minorities. No one robs you of opportunity when they yell a slur at your face. It's a moment of sadness and anger that disappears with the next day. It's the systematic prejudice that's really damaging. Children being shunted off to poorer schools, actors missing out on bigger roles, gentrification and white flight. All these things are the real obstacles to creating a multi-cultural society because they suppress the rate of change.

And I see the Grindr phenomenon as just part of that. I don't think it's coincidence blacks are so undesirable among both the gay and the straight dating scene, and that will never change if people just hide behind their "preferences" rather than engage in honest introspection. Because those preferences get passed on. They didn't come from nowhere, and they don't stop at yourself. It's a pattern that keeps repeating as long as you're contributing to it.

This is an amazing post, unfortunately in a lot of cases dating and just general day to day life people get more offended at the word than the action taking place which makes it harder for any introspective.
 

KmA

Member
Whew these last two pages is literally why I cannot date a white person lmao. So many white people will never admit their prejudice no matter how much you confront them.

When I was at a club I saw this guy I slept with and I went over to say hi. He didn't recognize me at first but later was like "OH YEA. CHICKEN CURRY CHICKEN KORMA!" ... literally wtf. Is that how you remember me? How fucking dehumanizing.

At my internship there was this magazine of the CEO of google and literally 5 white guys told me I look exactly like him. I do not lmao. I had to check with my ethnic friends to make sure I wasn't going crazy because I most assuredly do not look like him.

And how people will confuse me with the one other Indian person there. How they constantly mix up our names even though we look nothing alike and our names are not even close. My name isn't even South Asian, it's Arabic lmao. Like it's not intentional but white people are already categorizing us based on our race. Your prejudice comes out in subtle ways and we pick up on it.

And then there's grindr. After the Pulse shooting, one of my friends who is Sikh got a message asking if he was on there to shoot up a club. I get messages from guys all the time telling me I'm a "nasty indian" if I don't respond to their messages. Or how I'm "the only Indian I've ever been attracted too."

Like... this shit is pervasive and inescapable. And your ridiculous preferences that treat us like ice cream flavors rather than actual human beings stem from deep conditioning.

If you think saying "no blacks/no asians" cuts on the down time because "it's a hookup app", then maybe you should reevaluate. It costs zero dollars to treat another person like a human being.


Your standards of beauty and attraction are at least in part ingrained into you by society. If you live in a racially unequal society then some of that passes on into your own attitudes. This is call "internalized prejudice", and it's why some women among the more conservative areas of the US, believe that their sexs role is truly as domestic caretakers.

It seems to me in the gay community "it's just the preference" is the dating equivalent of "some of my best friends are black". The idea of preference being innate instead of conditioned tries to remove personal responsibility from what is conscious decision making, i.e. it's just how it is and there's nothing they can do to change it, and thus they don't need to. And, since you can't be born racist, and that they believe they were just born like this, they can't actually be racist themselves.

There's also the varying levels of racism that's all thrown under the same umbrella of "racist". There's the overt kind, where white people are burning down black churches calling blacks the n-word. But there's also the subtle, insidious kind, where prospective employees with "untraditional" names get passed over for "normal" (read: white christian) names. Where teenagers enthusiastically engage with music from black artists but remain cloistered in their all-white (or all-asian as the case may be across the pond) social bubbles. When people hear "racist", they think of the former. The hate crimes, the trolling, the antagonism.

But I would argue that it's the latter that contributes most to oppression of minorities. No one robs you of opportunity when they yell a slur at your face. It's a moment of sadness and anger that disappears with the next day. It's the systematic prejudice that's really damaging. Children being shunted off to poorer schools, actors missing out on bigger roles, gentrification and white flight. All these things are the real obstacles to creating a multi-cultural society because they suppress the rate of change.

And I see the Grindr phenomenon as just part of that. I don't think it's coincidence blacks are so undesirable among both the gay and the straight dating scene, and that will never change if people just hide behind their "preferences" rather than engage in honest introspection. Because those preferences get passed on. They didn't come from nowhere, and they don't stop at yourself. It's a pattern that keeps repeating as long as you're contributing to it.

This is an excellent explanation.
 
Whew these last two pages is literally why I cannot date a white person lmao. So many white people will never admit their prejudice no matter how much you confront them.

When I was at a club I saw this guy I slept with and I went over to say hi. He didn't recognize me at first but later was like "OH YEA. CHICKEN CURRY CHICKEN KORMA!" ... literally wtf. Is that how you remember me? How fucking dehumanizing.

At my internship there was this magazine of the CEO of google and literally 5 white guys told me I look exactly like him. I do not lmao. I had to check with my ethnic friends to make sure I wasn't going crazy because I most assuredly do not look like him.

And how people will confuse me with the one other Indian person there. How they constantly mix up our names even though we look nothing alike and our names are not even close. My name isn't even South Asian, it's Arabic lmao. Like it's not intentional but white people are already categorizing us based on our race. Your prejudice comes out in subtle ways and we pick up on it.

And then there's grindr. After the Pulse shooting, one of my friends who is Sikh got a message asking if he was on there to shoot up a club. I get messages from guys all the time telling me I'm a "nasty indian" if I don't respond to their messages. Or how I'm "the only Indian I've ever been attracted too."

Like... this shit is pervasive and inescapable. And your ridiculous preferences that treat us like ice cream flavors rather than actual human beings stem from deep conditioning.

If you think saying "no blacks/no asians" cuts on the down time because "it's a hookup app", then maybe you should reevaluate. It costs zero dollars to treat another person like a human being.




This is an excellent explanation.

We as gays of color have to deal with colorful disparaging remarks on a daily basis and those same people want to say "it's just a preference" the word has been abused and misused so much.

I remember one white gay saying how "he's ghetto but doesn't date black guys" I am far from a violent person but never have I felt the urge to punch someone so hard before.
 

edgefusion

Member
I'm a British guy of caucasian heritage but a little darker-skinned than most + beard. I'll never forget the day (almost 10 years ago) I was working on a deli counter and had a customer straight-faced ask me for my families curry recipe. Like, what?
 
"It's just a preference"

Bitch, if I hear that one more time as a reason nobody wants to get with me I'll burn something down. If you have an issue with a perspective partner based only on their skin color, yeah, you're a racist and a bigot. Straight up. Full stop.

You are what is poisoning our community. Like, fucking Jesus Christ.

"If you're not attracted to someone because of the color of their skin, you're a racist?"

Yes, holy mother of god that's like, literal textbook level racism what the hell lol.
 

IvorB

Member
Well, I wanted to debate this on an intellectual level but it's clear that people are very invested in this emotionally so best just to drop it. I think people have a hard time separating the issue of racism in the gay community (which is an issue) and the fact that some people do have sexual preference based on race (which isn't anti-black or anti-minority, in some cases favouring these groups). If you want to label these people as racists that's your call to make but I don't think it will change the bottom line of who they find attractive.
 
Well, I wanted to debate this on an intellectual level but it's clear that people are very invested in this emotionally so best just to drop it. I think people have a hard time separating the issue of racism in the gay community (which is an issue) and the fact that some people do have sexual preference based on race (which isn't anti-black or anti-minority, in some cases favouring these groups). If you want to label these people as racists that's your call to make but I don't think it will change the bottom line of who they find attractive.

If you completely eliminate people from your purview because of the color of their skin then yes, you're racist.

There. Easy peasy.

This isn't an intellectual exercise for many of us.

This is life.
 
If you are looking for equality and inclusiveness in an app environment where people judge each other by dick pics you *might* be looking in the wrong place.

It would seem like gay hookup culture might be one of the more toxic parts of the community. I'm pretty shook by this revelation.
 
It would seem like gay hookup culture might be one of the more toxic parts of the community. I'm pretty shook by this revelation.

Man I am shocked and stunned by this revelation that maybe this isn't a healthy outlet for our sexuality or ourselves as sexual creatures.

Maybe devaluing each other to the point where we are nothing more than pieces of meat is, bad?
 

edgefusion

Member
I don't usually frequent this thread but I'm feeling lonely over the Christmas period so I stopped by and ya'll got me arguing about racism. I thought this thread was a big love-in where we post pictures of hunks and sometimes DOWN graces us with his visage?
 
I don't usually frequent this thread but I'm feeling lonely over the Christmas period so I stopped by and ya'll got me arguing about racism. I thought this thread was a big love-in where we post pictures of hunks and sometimes DOWN graces us with his visage?

Depends on the cycles of the moon.
 
Your standards of beauty and attraction are at least in part ingrained into you by society. If you live in a racially unequal society then some of that passes on into your own attitudes. This is call "internalized prejudice", and it's why some women among the more conservative areas of the US believe that their sexs role is truly as domestic caretakers.

It seems to me in the gay community "it's just the preference" is the dating equivalent of "some of my best friends are black". The idea of preference being innate instead of conditioned tries to remove personal responsibility from what is conscious decision making, i.e. it's just how it is and there's nothing they can do to change it, and thus they don't need to. And, since you can't be born racist, and that they believe they were just born like this, they can't actually be racist themselves.

There's also the varying levels of racism that's all thrown under the same umbrella of "racist". There's the overt kind, where white people are burning down black churches and calling blacks the n-word. But there's also the subtle, insidious kind, where prospective employees with "untraditional" names get passed over for "normal" (read: white christian) names. Where teenagers enthusiastically engage with music from black artists but remain cloistered in their all-white (or all-asian as the case may be across the pond) social bubbles. When people hear "racist", they think of the former. The hate crimes, the trolling, the antagonism.

But I would argue that it's the latter that contributes most to oppression of minorities. No one robs you of opportunity when they yell a slur at your face. It's a moment of sadness and anger that disappears with the next day. It's the systematic prejudice that's really damaging. Children being shunted off to poorer schools, actors missing out on bigger roles, gentrification and white flight. All these things are the real obstacles to creating a multi-cultural society because they suppress the rate of change.

And I see the Grindr phenomenon as just part of that. I don't think it's coincidence blacks are so undesirable among both the gay and the straight dating scene, and that will never change if people just hide behind their "preferences" rather than engage in honest introspection. Because those preferences get passed on. They didn't come from nowhere, and they don't stop at yourself. It's a pattern that keeps repeating as long as you're contributing to it.


Ppl still forget, interracial marriage has only been legal 49 years. That love based racism hasn't had time to dilute enough
 

Bladenic

Member
we'll be back on Pokemon in a couple of post.

Primarina (male) is a drag icon

730Primarina.png
 
Had a strange interaction with a fellow gay coworker today.

He brought up how Grindr is (present tense) his worst enemy. But I'm almost fairly certain he has a serious boyfriend. I wasn't sure whether to ask if I was mistaken because I guess asking it in that way presupposes several things about their relationship. And I didn't want to risk any awkwardness.
 

KmA

Member
Well, I wanted to debate this on an intellectual level but it's clear that people are very invested in this emotionally so best just to drop it. I think people have a hard time separating the issue of racism in the gay community (which is an issue) and the fact that some people do have sexual preference based on race (which isn't anti-black or anti-minority, in some cases favouring these groups). If you want to label these people as racists that's your call to make but I don't think it will change the bottom line of who they find attractive.

*Intellectual* lmao fuck. This is the exact issue. To you this is just a *debate* when this is a poc's actual life. There is no debate here. You either listen to the problems we go through or you just don't.
 

Kevyt

Member
Well, I wanted to debate this on an intellectual level but it's clear that people are very invested in this emotionally so best just to drop it. I think people have a hard time separating the issue of racism in the gay community (which is an issue) and the fact that some people do have sexual preference based on race (which isn't anti-black or anti-minority, in some cases favouring these groups). If you want to label these people as racists that's your call to make but I don't think it will change the bottom line of who they find attractive.

Can we also have an intellectual discussion about people who believe gays are doomed to hell aren't really bigoted or homophobic, that's just their preconceived notion based on their faiths/religion? Love the sinner/hate the sin kind of deal?

While we're at it, can we also have an intellectual discussion about those who believe having a national registry for Muslims aren't really xenophobic they're just legitimately worried about national security given the events that have happened?

And why not another intellectual discussion about why women aren't fit for certain jobs and the best role they could partake in would be as a housewife? It's in their biology, am I wrong?

We could have legitimate intellectual discussions about these topics if people weren't too emotionally invested, why stop at racial preferences in the gay community??

Calling all individuals who believe the latter won't change anything of what they think about Muslims, women, and gays won't change how they really feel so why not have "intellectual" discussions about these?

/S
This is why the alt right is a thing now btw
 
Your standards of beauty and attraction are at least in part ingrained into you by society. If you live in a racially unequal society then some of that passes on into your own attitudes. This is call "internalized prejudice", and it's why some women among the more conservative areas of the US believe that their sexs role is truly as domestic caretakers.

It seems to me in the gay community "it's just the preference" is the dating equivalent of "some of my best friends are black". The idea of preference being innate instead of conditioned tries to remove personal responsibility from what is conscious decision making, i.e. it's just how it is and there's nothing they can do to change it, and thus they don't need to. And, since you can't be born racist, and that they believe they were just born like this, they can't actually be racist themselves.

There's also the varying levels of racism that's all thrown under the same umbrella of "racist". There's the overt kind, where white people are burning down black churches and calling blacks the n-word. But there's also the subtle, insidious kind, where prospective employees with "untraditional" names get passed over for "normal" (read: white christian) names. Where teenagers enthusiastically engage with music from black artists but remain cloistered in their all-white (or all-asian as the case may be across the pond) social bubbles. When people hear "racist", they think of the former. The hate crimes, the trolling, the antagonism.

But I would argue that it's the latter that contributes most to oppression of minorities. No one robs you of opportunity when they yell a slur at your face. It's a moment of sadness and anger that disappears with the next day. It's the systematic prejudice that's really damaging. Children being shunted off to poorer schools, actors missing out on bigger roles, gentrification and white flight. All these things are the real obstacles to creating a multi-cultural society because they suppress the rate of change.

And I see the Grindr phenomenon as just part of that. I don't think it's coincidence blacks are so undesirable among both the gay and the straight dating scene, and that will never change if people just hide behind their "preferences" rather than engage in honest introspection. Because those preferences get passed on. They didn't come from nowhere, and they don't stop at yourself. It's a pattern that keeps repeating as long as you're contributing to it.

i luv u, corgi
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
Whew these last two pages is literally why I cannot date a white person lmao.
You clearly believe that eliminating an entire demographic from the dating pool based on skin color is racist and I would agree with that position. So why would you say something like this?
 

Kevyt

Member
You clearly believe that eliminating an entire demographic from the dating pool based on skin color is racist and I would agree with that position. So why would you say something like this?

I was gonna post something like that too, except even more inflammatory than that.
 

KmA

Member
You clearly believe that eliminating an entire demographic from the dating pool based on skin color is racist and I would agree with that position. So why would you say something like this?

Because it's not based on attraction. I know that the white race is varied and I've clearly been attracted to white people before. But it's not about that. It's based on a white person not understanding where I come from. I know plenty of white people who are the nicest, most polite people in the entire world who hold no ill will towards any race but even so when they are around me, things slip out unintentionally. White privilege runs very deep it's hard to just ignore that.
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
Because it's not based on attraction. I know that the white race is varied and I've clearly been attracted to white people before. But it's not about that. It's based on a white person not understanding where I come from. I know plenty of white people who are the nicest, most polite people in the entire world who hold no ill will towards any race but even so when they are around me, things slip out unintentionally. White privilege runs very deep it's hard to just ignore that.
So just to be clear, you're saying a white person can't relate to your life experiences, and so by default, they are eliminated from your dating pool?
 

KmA

Member
Still reeling over the fact that someone said POC were getting too *emotional* talking about racism we face lmao.
 

Yado

Member
I'm sure they will! In the meantime, I'm glad we're in agreement over KmA's... what did someone call it again?


Yeah, that!

Is he reluctant to date white people because of their race or because of their views? Because views can change, race doesn't. Minorities are always going to be minorities, are white people always going to bury their heads in the sand?
 

B-Dex

Member
Is he reluctant to date white people because of their race or because of their views? Because views can change, race doesn't. Minorities are always going to be minorities, are white people always going to bury their heads in the sand?

Are Indian people a minority in India? Would a white person be a minority in India?
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
Is he reluctant to date white people because of their race or because of their views? Because views can change, race doesn't. Minorities are always going to be minorities, are white people always going to bury their heads in the sand?
I love these attempts to rationalize the exclusion of white people, which essentially requires prejudgment of those individuals' life experiences based on the color of their skin, rather than getting to know them individually.

Are there a lot of shitty white people? You betcha. But assuming not a single one of them could relate because they're white? Sorry, we've entered racist territory.
 

Kevyt

Member
Are Indian people a minority in India? Would a white person be a minority in India?

A minority doesn't necessarily have to be a small group of people but a group of people that has less privileges/power than the dominant group.

To answer your question, yes Indians were minorities during colonial times, and to some degree they still are.

To the second part of your question, I think it depends. Light skin individuals enjoy more privileges than their dark skin peers in the developed and under developed world. In addition to the fact that many skin lightening creams are sold yearly in India and how popular skin bleaching is, it kinda gives you an idea.

I'd argue a white person in India wouldn't be treated as a minority simply because of their skin color.
 

Yado

Member
I love these attempts to rationalize the exclusion of white people, which essentially requires prejudgment of those individuals' life experiences based on the color of their skin, rather than getting to know them individually.

Are there a lot of shitty white people? You betcha. But assuming not a single one of them could relate because they're white? Sorry, we've entered racist territory.

I probably should have directly addressed the "no blacks/Asians" people in my post instead of saying white people.

Bottom line is, kma can meet a white guy who doesn't hold the views he might assume they have. You're not going to meet a black guy who isn't black, even if he doesn't look the way you expect a black guy to look he's still black, there's no leeway there. The two things aren't the same.
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
I probably should have directly addressed the "no blacks/Asians" people in my post instead of saying white people.

Bottom line is, kma can meet a white guy who doesn't hold the views he might assume they have. You're not going to meet a black guy who isn't black, even if he doesn't look the way you expect a black guy to look he's still black, there's no leeway there. The two things aren't the same.
You're attempting to make a distinction that doesn't matter. He can meet a white guy who doesn't hold those views. But KmA is not willing to provide that opportunity to white people, based on a presumption assigned to an entire demographic on the basis of skin color. Therefore, white people are not eligible for dating.

Sounds like a racist action to me, but hey!
 

OrionX

Member
As a white guy, I can't say that I've experienced racial discrimination... but as a gay person, I do know what it feels like to be different from the "majority," and to feel judged for something you have no control over. I'd like to think that I'm more empathetic toward others because of that. Obviously everyone here can relate to the latter though, and I know gay minorities have to fight both those battles, so I'm not trying to say that it's the same.

For the record, I'd be more than flattered if a guy of any race expressed an interest in me. And I'm not just saying that because I've been wandering through the desert my whole life. lol
 

Bladenic

Member
The Gaycation episode about the Deep South has me so conflicted about New Orleans. "Second highest gay population in the country" wow awesome! "Louisiana has the highest rates of new HIV infections" well shit
 
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