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[The artful mincer]

No.

you fucking joking right?

What's so hard to understand that some players want to experiment with more than one weapon and don't want to be forced to play a certain way?

 

[cireza]

How? What does it do better than its prequels in any category?

Everything ? It has a more focused game-design, no open area, no shitty platforming sections, no utterly gimmicky bosses etc... and it also offers one nice challenge hidden in each stage. This is simply a very strong game with consistent level-design, challenging bosses, no useless inventory, and no bullshit from start to finish. You have the right to be entitled to your opinion, but you won't change my mind so let's stop here.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Lies of P has fun combat, but it could have had more stagger/hit detection. Give me Bloodborne or Souls. I can see why people love LoP, but I have had a better time with the weapon variety of Dark Souls and the parry system of Bloodborne. Even with its smaller variety of weapons. Sekiro is on a whole other level because there’s more deflection and stamina drain than all the above.

LoP has a lot of potential, but it wasn’t something memorable enough for me to replay in the future. The same enemy runts, 2-3 small and 1 larger. There were some cool moments.
I had a better time with great swords in soulsborne and then Kusarigamas in NiOh. I spent 30-40 hours in LoP and a couple hundred hours in the other titles.

 

[RoboFu]

lol what?

 

[The artful mincer]

6 votes for Lies of P? Come on guys, we should at least a "dozen". I can understand who voted for Sekiro and Nioh/Wo long, but I don't believe those who voted for Bloodborne or other games actually played Lies of P or Sekiro. Last second parry, especially multiple ones in seconds, is the way. From Software should bring Sekiro mechanics to their games going forward.

I you that surprised really? FromSoftware fans are a...defensive bunch!

Although I must admit I thought sekiro would be winning the poll not bloodborne.

It was tough choice between Nioh 2 and Lies of P for me. I went with Nioh 2 but Lies of P is the better overall game.

 

[Punished Miku]

you fucking joking right?

1 weapon. Limited skills tied to consumables. Only one way to play forcing parries only. Same souls issues with enemy tracking.

Its their best combat but not even slightly close to Nioh. Great art style though that makes it look and feel cool. They lead in those areas.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Nioh 2 > Sekiro > Elden Ring > everything else IMO

 

[Kssio_Aug]

I didn't play Nioh and WoLong, but from the other options I think Elden Ring in terms of gameplay is the natural evolution to the series, and the best one (even though I'm not sure if I prefer it's open world aspect to it's older level design).

Sekiro is a good contender, but it lacks the variety of the Souls games.

 

[March Climber]

Honestly surprised that bloodborne's winning. It's fun but it's definitely the most basic combat system.

You only really need to master dodging and r1 spam to beat the game.

Bloodborne has a parry, but the difference is that you don't need to solely rely on it like Sekiro. Same with having weapon options instead of relying on one type of blade.

You can't even block,

You don't need to. The game isn't built around blocking mechanics.

Does seem to show that a good majority of players don't seem to care about complexity or depth in combat systems.

This quote sounds like a Virtua Fighter fan from the 2000s not understanding why games like Street Fighter, Tekken, and King of Fighters kept outperforming it as a franchise, when the barrier of entry for VF has always been very high compared to other fighting games. That doesn't mean the mechanics in games like SF, TKN, and KoF are not deep, fun, or meaningful, because they are.

 

[Alex11]

Really surprised and glad to see such appreciation for Sekiro, it's also my top pick.

Would absolutely love a sequel, spiritual successor, whatever.

 

[Black_Mamba]

I struggle to understand the adoration of everything related to Bloodborne. I can understand when people say they prefer the horror theme (though I don't), but the combat? Seriously? Bloodborne combate system is a (very) simplified version of Dark Souls combat with the addition of the HP recovery system and the subtraction of so many things. No bows (I know you get an useless one 5 minutes from the ending), no shields (there's one, also useless), very limited number of weapons, armors, throwable items, status effects, simplified character builds, simplified poise mechanic and the list goes on. Trick weapons and blood gems are more original concepts, but again, they seem to me more like a way to simplify the design.

 

[ChoosableOne]

Really surprised and glad to see such appreciation for Sekiro, it's also my top pick.

Would absolutely love a sequel, spiritual successor, whatever.

You can play Lies of P or Wo Long, if you didn't already. They are not the same thing of course, there are other ways to kill enemies than parrying them to death, but they have pretty good and satisfying parry system.

 

[Punished Miku]

I struggle to understand the adoration of everything related to Bloodborne. I can understand when people say they prefer the horror theme (though I don't), but the combat? Seriously? Bloodborne combate system is a (very) simplified version of Dark Souls combat with the addition of the HP recovery system and the subtraction of so many things. No bows (I know you get an useless one 5 minutes from the ending), no shields (there's one, also useless), very limited number of weapons, armors, throwable items, status effects, simplified character builds, simplified poise mechanic and the list goes on. Trick weapons and blood gems are more original concepts, but again, they seem to me more like a way to simplify the design.

No lies detected.

Setting and art style are phenomenal though, no doubt.

 

[Alex11]

You can play Lies of P or Wo Long, if you didn't already. They are not the same thing of course, there are other ways to kill enemies than parrying them to death, but they have pretty good and satisfying parry system.

Well for me it isn't just about parrying per se, it's more how you "feel" that parry, when everything clicks, it's like a dance.
And it isn't just parry, you can just dodge and just chop at the health, you have all those tools to stun and distract and can even stealth kill some bosses.

 

[Danjin44]

Sekiro and Armored Core VI has my favourite combat system in FROM games..

But I don’t consider neither of them as “Souls” games….Sekiro is FROM’s take on action game same way Armored Core is Mecha action game…simple as that.

If we are talking about actual “Souls“ game then I go with Elden Ring because sheer variety builds you can make in that game.

 

[ChoosableOne]

Well for me it isn't just about parrying per se, it's more how you "feel" that parry, when everything clicks, it's like a dance.
And it isn't just parry, you can just dodge and just chop at the health, you have all those tools to stun and distract and can even stealth kill some bosses.

You can dance with her all day if you want.

 

[The artful mincer]

Bloodborne has a parry, but the difference is that you don't need to solely rely on it like Sekiro. Same with having weapon options instead of relying on one type of blade.

No disagreement here.

You don't need to. The game isn't built around blocking mechanics.

It results in a simpler combat system. Knowing when to block, parry, dodge, attack, heavy attack change weapon etc are what make combat engaging. Removing any one of these things can make a game less fun at least for me.

This quote sounds like a Virtua Fighter fan from the 2000s not understanding why games like Street Fighter, Tekken, and King of Fighters kept outperforming it as a franchise, when the barrier of entry for VF has always been very high compared to other fighting games. That doesn't mean the mechanics in games like SF, TKN, and KoF are not deep, fun, or meaningful, because they are.

It's just an observation people are free to like what they like. It was more indictment on games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden and Nioh etc. Fans of those games are very vocal about having the best combat with depth being the main reason.

Depth is only one reason to enjoy a combat system.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Blade of Darkness > Everything Else

 

[Punished Miku]

You can dance with her all day if you want.

It looks cool and that player is insanely good, but its the same thing as all Souls bosses. Movement is mostly pointless because enemy tracking is so exaggerated. So mastery looks like this. You barely move and just let the boss come at you and you land the parries and hit. Its hard but not my preference for combat systems. High level Elden Ring players do this a lot too where they just sit there because running around doesnt matter when they can always track you.

 

[thuGG_pl]

I prefer when I can roll instead of dodge. So no, DS3 for me.

 

[SlimySnake]

Bloodborne
Nioh
Sekiro
Demon Souls Remake
Dark Souls 3

In that order. BB's combat doesnt shine until you do the dungeons. The perks you get in there are insane.

Nioh is stylish and much more fun than the Fromsoft games, but they are a bit too flashy and require all kinds of different builds to get to that level of fun whereas BB is fun from the moment you swing the axe.

I really wish these combat engines werent tied to the souls level design. I have come to hate it. Give me a traditional linear action game like Ninja Gaiden, GOW, DMC or even an open world game like Ghost Of Tsushima or Witcher 3, and put the BB or Nioh combat. I hate the retarded runs to the bosses, and difficulty spikes at every boss where you basically have to die ten times just to learn a boss fight.

Not playing another souls game for a while. If Lies of P was a traditional action adventure game, i wouldve given it a shot.

 

[Nankatsu]

Sekiro is untouchable so far for me.

 

[Jesb]

With how difficult these games are a lot of us will never find out. I’ve tried to get into blood borne like 3 times. It always kicks my ass. Bought nioh ages ago thinking it would be different but it’s the same.

 

[Sentenza]

Easily Sekiro

Yep, winning by domination over the rest. Other FS titles included.

 

[Punished Miku]

Bloodborne
Nioh
Sekiro
Demon Souls Remake
Dark Souls 3

In that order. BB's combat doesnt shine until you do the dungeons. The perks you get in there are insane.

Nioh is stylish and much more fun than the Fromsoft games, but they are a bit too flashy and require all kinds of different builds to get to that level of fun whereas BB is fun from the moment you swing the axe.

I really wish these combat engines werent tied to the souls level design. I have come to hate it. Give me a traditional linear action game like Ninja Gaiden, GOW, DMC or even an open world game like Ghost Of Tsushima or Witcher 3, and put the BB or Nioh combat. I hate the retarded runs to the bosses, and difficulty spikes at every boss where you basically have to die ten times just to learn a boss fight.

Not playing another souls game for a while. If Lies of P was a traditional action adventure game, i wouldve given it a shot.

Lies of P is significantly more linear than the last few souls games. Its part of the reason I stuck with it to the end. I think it also has much better difficulty balancing. There are spikes, but fewer of them.

 

[The artful mincer]

It looks cool and that player is insanely good, but its the same thing as all Souls bosses. Movement is mostly pointless because enemy tracking is so exaggerated. So mastery looks like this. You barely move and just let the boss come at you and you land the parries and hit. Its hard but not my preference for combat systems. High level Elden Ring players do this a lot too where they just sit there because running around doesnt matter when they can always track you.

Interesting analysis I've not thought about but is likely true. What games do you think encourage movement well?

Doom eternal immediately springs to mind.

Spiderman 2 seems to have the opposite problem. You can move so quick you don't need to dodge or parry.

 

[Punished Miku]

Interesting analysis I've not thought about but is likely true. What games do you think encourage movement well?

Doom eternal immediately springs to mind.

Spiderman 2 seems to have the opposite problem. You can move so quick you don't need to dodge or parry.

Nioh does more than Souls. But Bayonetta, DMC and Ninja Gaiden have tons of movement options. Basically in those games the enemies are striking a point in space and you can move or not. In Souls they are mostly just striking you and they get magnetized to you no matter what so you rely on parries or evades at the last second. There's not as much emphasis on spacing and positioning. When fighting those red player spawn enemies in Elden Ring I'd dodge completely behind an enemy at times and they'd just spin in place 180 degrees to magnet to me with no animation.

 

[Edmund]

Nioh 2 was so good i don't know what went through Koei Tecmo's mind when they made Wo Long.

Wo Long is extremely dumbed down in terms of combat and build compared to Nioh 2. It has zero depth.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Everything ? It has a more focused game-design, no open area, no shitty platforming sections, no utterly gimmicky bosses etc... and it also offers one nice challenge hidden in each stage. This is simply a very strong game with consistent level-design, challenging bosses, no useless inventory, and no bullshit from start to finish. You have the right to be entitled to your opinion, but you won't change my mind so let's stop here.

1. Platforming is one of the best features of Ninja Gaiden... in NG3 most of the platforming is reduced to climbing endless walls with kunai, pointlessly gliding through the air toward a target, and sliding/jumping past objects while running with camera facing away from the direction you are heading. Not to mention endless transitions that require quicktime events. What is worse is most of the time is spent not in dynamic locations, but inside linearly connected hallways with spawning enemies.

2. Inventory system made the previous entries more adventure oriented. In this one you instead have to spend egrerious amounts of currency at a sorry excuse for a node-based upgrade map.

3. This game had bosses more gimmicky than any of the others. Most of the fight against the final boss was spent farming waves of a single enemy to build up magic to unleash a ninpo quicktime event. There was also a mecha boss whose second stage was pretty much just a spinning death wheel with tracking that could only be safely attacked when it ran out of steam.

4. All of the Ninja Gaidens had hidden challenges. Only difference is they were not vertical slices of better games.

5. This was the only game of the three that I had to force myself to finish because of how mindnumbingly boring some sections were with having to repeat the exact same strategy with no room for deviation.

P.S. I do not expect to change your mind or a reply, but I felt the need to breakdown the reasons for my outlook on the game.

 

[March Climber]

It's just an observation people are free to like what they like. It was more indictment on games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden and Nioh etc. Fans of those games are very vocal about having the best combat with depth being the main reason.

Depth is only one reason to enjoy a combat system.

I think the problem is that you’re trying to make this a ‘lesser than, greater than’ when both games are masterful at what they specifically do. The dodging/shotgun is to Bloodborne as the block/parry is to Sekiro.

Sekiro is Ballet and Bloodborne is Breakdancing. At their peak both require a high level of skill, but breakdancing has an easier barrier of entry at a lower skill level. That doesn’t discredit it as a dance with a very high skill ceiling, much like Ballet. However, I have a preference for watching Breakdancing because it’s more fun to try and also watch. That doesn’t mean I’m directly comparing them.

At the end of the day, it’s just a preference, like you're implying.

 

[Clear]

Nioh 2 was so good i don't know what went through Koei Tecmo's mind when they made Wo Long.

Wo Long is extremely dumbed down in terms of combat and build compared to Nioh 2. It has zero depth.

The depth is there, its just extremely back-loaded. The last 2 DLC's and the patches that accompanied them included a lot of stuff that makes the game a lot more fun and interesting.

The truth is that the slimmed down itemization turned out to be more of detriment than a benefit, for far too long building certain gear sets was just painful because the drop-rate was so dialled back. They should've kept Nioh's inventory/storage sizes and introduced all the auto-sell/salvage options way sooner, as that comprehensively addresses the stress of dealing with the endless mountains of loot.

 

[ChoosableOne]

Nioh 2 and its not even in the same universe.

It looks cool and that player is insanely good, but its the same thing as all Souls bosses. Movement is mostly pointless because enemy tracking is so exaggerated. So mastery looks like this. You barely move and just let the boss come at you and you land the parries and hit. Its hard but not my preference for combat systems. High level Elden Ring players do this a lot too where they just sit there because running around doesnt matter when they can always track you.

They all do the same thing I guess and I think it's ok. Lies of P uses very agressive bosses though.

Btw I can parry like that "dance" video most of the time now, with my barely capable hands and it's awesome. Parry was harder to do in Ds and Bloodborne than Sekiro/Lies of P somehow, probably because the initial delay.

Lies of P is significantly more linear than the last few souls games. Its part of the reason I stuck with it to the end. I think it also has much better difficulty balancing. There are spikes, but fewer of them.

Some bosses have unbelievable difficulty spikes in phase 2(with full health). And I played the latest nerfed version of this game.

 

[Edmund]

The depth is there, its just extremely back-loaded. The last 2 DLC's and the patches that accompanied them included a lot of stuff that makes the game a lot more fun and interesting.

The truth is that the slimmed down itemization turned out to be more of detriment than a benefit, for far too long building certain gear sets was just painful because the drop-rate was so dialled back. They should've kept Nioh's inventory/storage sizes and introduced all the auto-sell/salvage options way sooner, as that comprehensively addresses the stress of dealing with the endless mountains of loot.

Speaking of the dlcs I just beat Taishi Ci today with my friends on the 2nd difficulty. Lol. We died so many times to him and when we finally beat him, we were like Phew, finally. And then he had a second form lol. We decided to respec to Earth build and beat him in one try.

By the way, just wondering is there even a point to do martial arts? I feel wizardry is way stronger.

 

[Hunter 99]

For me bloodborne in 2015 was the most satisfying for a near 10 year old game now.the grind was worth the moment when the combat system clicked.and it was very satisfying beating some of the bosses (kos and King lorian)

But saying that sekiro blew me away too. I liked the rhythm combat and loved learning to parry but the last boss isshin was a BASTARD!

I can't comment on nioh or wo long as I tried to play and get into them for many years now and I just don't like them. I'm not really into the team ninja games to be fair. I understand they have amazing combat and gameplay but I just can't get on with them.

Lies of P was my GOAT last year (and hogwarts legacy) its the closest I've come to experiencing bloodborne for the first time again.
Loved the setting,style,weapons everything was just fun to play.

Each to their own though...

 

[Strider7]

Sekiro is hands down the best, with Bloodborne as a close second imo. Lies of P is great, but the combat isn’t quite at Sekiro levels.

 

[cireza]

P.S. I do not expect to change your mind or a reply, but I felt the need to breakdown the reasons for my outlook on the game.

This discussion should have ended several posts earlier, at the moment where you should have accepted me having a different opinion than yours. Everything that you said is a personal point of view, great for you if you prefer the aspects you have described, but this is certainly not my case.

I entered this thread sharing a personal opinion very politely without shitting on other games from the franchise, and your very first answer was basically "your opinion sucks the first games were much better". And then you proceeded to be insufferable with your arguments about the first game being better while nobody gives a shit.

 

[Clear]

Speaking of the dlcs I just beat Taishi Ci today with my friends on the 2nd difficulty. Lol. We died so many times to him and when we finally beat him, we were like Phew, finally. And then he had a second form lol. We decided to respec to Earth build and beat him in one try.

By the way, just wondering is there even a point to do martial arts? I feel wizardry is way stronger.

Some martial arts are way stronger than others. A good starting point is to look for ones with the barrage sub-ability, as that basically means that provided you have spirit you can repeat the attack endlessly. The most obviously "broken" one being Turning Clouds on Sword/Straight Saber. As that not only chains, but aggressively tracks and steers. Devastatingly strong with sets like Lingbao or Zhurong as you can simply bully any boss once properly debuffed.

The issue really is that the really strong and useful grace sets were added late on, and they are not only extremely OP, but allow for very well differentiated play-styles.

People really ought to take a second look at Wo Long, as in its current (final) state its simply way better than it was at launch. DLC 2 was kinda the tipping point, which is a shame because although I'd never say the game was in a bad state, until that patch it was severely limited and lacked long-term replayability.

The rollout was very similar to Final Fantasy Origins, as again, that game really didn't come into its own until the 2nd DLC dropped. With the first DLC just being painfully difficult and a point at which I'm certain a lot of people noped out.

 

[Arachnid]

Sekiro followed by bloodborne. Honestly, it's not even a competition.

This

Bloodborne is one of my top 5 games of all time, but it's winning a popularity contest here. Sekiro is the clear best IMO

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Salmon Snake]

Sekiro and Bloodborne are a tight match.
My money goes to Sekiro just because it's 60 fps and I love me some katana deflection action.

 

[Mozzarella]

Player's Combat: Easily Nioh 2
Enemy's Combat: Elden Ring

But yeah i agree that Lies of P is great, i think the actual combat itself is better than the likes of Bloodborne but the enemy design is not as good.

 

[_Idea_of_Evil_]

They have created the best combat system in this genre by combining Sekiro, Bloodborne, and the Dark Souls series. Truly incredible. I fear I won't experience the same taste in my next From Software game. What do you think about it?

I don't Lies of P did a great job combining FromSoftware combat elements. The game feels awful to play. Movement and combat don't feel good at all. Imo, the best thing Lies of P has going for it is the visuals.
Beyond that, it didn't land with me at all. Couldn't care less about Kra(p)t or the copy/pasted ideas.

I think Sekiro still reigns as #1 for sword action/combat. I don't consider Sekiro a Soulslike though.

Nioh (1,2) and Wo Long are tied for my #2 in sword action/combat. Nioh brought back fast and brutal Ninja Gaiden-esque action into the Souls formula.
Combos and parries in Wo Long are tight/precise and the fatal strikes hold their own against deathblows from Sekiro for being badass.

Bloodborne is my #1 combat system if we're strictly talking amongst Soulslikes.

 

[NeverYouMind]

This discussion should have ended several posts earlier, at the moment where you should have accepted me having a different opinion than yours. Everything that you said is a personal point of view, great for you if you prefer the aspects you have described, but this is certainly not my case.

I entered this thread sharing a personal opinion very politely without shitting on other games from the franchise, and your very first answer was basically "your opinion sucks the first games were much better". And then you proceeded to be insufferable with your arguments about the first game being better while nobody gives a shit.

Opinions can be wrong. That is why they should be questioned and analyzed.

 

[cireza]

Opinions can be wrong. That is why they should be questioned and analyzed.

That's not how opinions work. You are beyond ridiculous. Stop embarrassing yourself like this.

 

[Solidus_T]

It's a good game, but it is not coming close to the Nioh series' combat.

 

[DenchDeckard]

It's an awesome game, but Sekiro says hello.

 

[Gojiira]

Sorry but no game has managed to iterate on Bloodborne, Trick Weapons are wholly unique and the Rally mechanic only works well in BB itself due to its gameplay.
Same goes for Sekiro, its not as varied as Elden Ring or Dark Souls etc but its mechanically deep and extremely polished.
Lies of P has its own strengths but its not as mechanically complex as Sekiro,and it certainly doesnt top Bloodbornes uniqueness,nor does it have the variety and builds of Elden Ring…

 

[R6Rider]

Sekiro isn't even a Soulslike.

 

[Efren is G.O.A.T.]

Lies of P was a great surprise for me last year and I enjoyed it immensely but Sekiro hasn't been dethroned yet.

 

[Arsic]

Love lies of p but no. Bloodborne and Sekiro trump it.

Combat has to take into account what you’re fighting as well, and lies of p doesn’t provide the depth Bb does when it comes to enemy variety. LoP plays damn well and has fantastic weapon combination systems. The sequel will really flesh this out to then be considered in the top echelon. It stands shoulder to shoulder with other FS titles though for combat IMO.