Support NeoGAF

[Marty Chinn]

With the model you suggested what happens if the orders come in at say 3000 copies and the game's dev wanted a minimum order of 5000.

This doesn't make sense. Under what I outlined, they would have failed then and according to some would have gone out of business as a result. If they ordered 5000 copies ahead of time and then did a normal release and sold 3000, they'd be screwed too wouldn't they?

I don't see how you take a release, do it like normal, open it up at the normal 10am/6pm time slots and just sell to the consumer that they sell less. Either they would have sold the 5000 copies under normal conditions or they wouldn't have with that limited window. You're working on the basis that 2000 copies are sold on the basis of there being a hard limit of knowing there are only 5000 copies versus knowing it's limited since it's only being sold for an hour. In both cases it's known there is a limited window. They could have done it with Night Trap and I guarantee they would have made way more money than they did. The point is to open up more availability while still maintaining the limited factor. To most consumers, they're going to just buy in that window of availability and not watch the stock counter. Hell off the top of my head, I can't tell you the exact number of copies on most of their releases now.

Treat everything as almost a normal release but extend availability window a bit while not conveying that part of the sale should increase their sales, more people will get the game, and less people will complain. For a majority of the people from their view, nothing will change because it will be just like buying a game from them as usual. I'm not talking about a dramatic change, but a minor one that can be used to learn a lot from and should increase sales.

With the communication problem I think it's primarily an issue with lack of capital to hire the manpower to do that. I mean sure it'd be great if Doug and Josh could just work 20 hours a day 7 days a week but then they'd probably die of exhaustion.

They tweet a ton though. So I don't buy that they don't have time to communicate let alone communicate well.

What you're advocating is they can't grow their business, they're always going to be so fragile that one release can ruin them since they have no buffer, and there's nothing they can do to improve. I don't buy it since not every change is a huge resource impact on them. Better communication is one that has minimal resources but a huge impact.

 

[salaciousdrift]

Well, I think the main reason they don't is because they tried it with Skullgirls and then it ended kinda horribly but it was all at the fault of Lab Zero but LRG took most if not all the blame.

"Because Skullgirls" will continue to be the offered reason not pursuing direct pre-order. Maybe if Screaming Villains had tried another Kickstarter with a pledge tier that included the LRG release than we could have all paid at our leisure like adults but instead every Friday is Black Friday.

Personally, I think they should give it another shot.

As it is now, I think things are going to be fine. With something like this in limited amounts for things that a LOT of people want, you are never going to be able to satisfy everyone. There are things here and there that they can improve on, but at the end of the day, because of the limited nature of their stocks, SOMEONE is going to miss out.

Well sure. But there is certainly a difference in servicing nearly your entire prospective interested customer base with a pre-order period and servicing a negligible amount of the prospective customer base because the company lacks adequate capitalization to either the pay the advances to developers for print runs that would meet customer demand or allow revenue stream in slower if something doesn't immediately sell-out.

Limited Run Games is a side venture that I appreciate exists to allow us to get games in physical form and at the end of the day, I think they know what is best for their company and their goals. From the sounds of it, it seems like if even one or two games are overordered it could spell 'the end' of everything which isn't worth it to me.

I won't excuse any business' practices because it paints itself as a hobby or diversion for the central authors of the venture. I know that Limited Run may have started as a tool for Mighty Rabbit to self-publish some their titles and some other titles they are interested in but the scope is far beyond that now. VBlank Entertainment managed to self-publish Retro City Ramage on nearly every platform that accepts physical media and did so without bungling numerous releases by other developers. I think that is what is best for the company is probably in direct conflict with what is best for the customers and some of the developers they work with. That's the problem. And if they've painted themselves into a corner with contractual print runs on games unlikely to sell out their runs without adequate capitalization than it might actually beg the question do they know what is best for the company? Because stifling print-runs of games capable of more sales while delaying the sale of clunkers in hopes that they will have their numbers lifted by completionists or bundles can only work so many times.

 

[zeopower6]

Yeah they've said that it often is and LRG gives suggestions based on their reading of the popularity.

That's the main issue with preorders. Sure some devs might be fine with it but when we're dealing with copies that in the grand scheme of things sell extremely small amounts I can see why a dev would want a guarantee on a minimum amount of copies. A preorder by definition cannot guarantee that. LRG would end up footing that bill if preorders come in under the minimum. They wouldn't even be able to sell the copies that go over since people would probably complain that that's going over the number that were supposed to be sold.

I think I understand their stance on preorders but it could not hurt to give it one more try. The Skullgirls debacle basically went wrong in every way possible, with Limited Run Games being assaulted with nearly all the criticism for it even though it was all out of their control.

Because stifling print-runs of games capable of more sales while delaying the sale of clunkers in hopes that they will have their numbers lifted by completionists or bundles can only work so many times.

Has there been a release that hasn't sold out yet? I think for them, what is best for the company is to 'maintain' things as they are. I'd rather personally keep things as they are than not have LRG around at all due to a hypothetical risk in the future that shutters the whole operation.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I think I understand their stance on preorders but it could not hurt to give it one more try. The Skullgirls debacle basically went wrong in every way possible, with Limited Run Games being assaulted with nearly all the criticism for it even though it was all out of their control.

I think the biggest difference they can do is to not to open up orders until it's been certified and ready to manufacture. Skullgirls just wasn't ready and was delayed. I understand not wanting to do preorders for something with an uncertain time frame, but something ready to go and ready to manufacture should be much more predictable.

Has there been a release that hasn't sold out yet? I think for them, what is best for the company is to 'maintain' things as they are. I'd rather personally keep things as they are than not have LRG around at all due to a hypothetical risk in the future that shutters the whole operation.

Everything has sold out. There has been a couple where it extended into the weekend, but everything sells out by the end. I think we should be worried that they're so fragile that one release can ruin them though. I think that means they're being too conservative and not building up a buffer. I would hope that after 75 releases they would be in a better spot than 10 releases in.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

This doesn't make sense. Under what I outlined, they would have failed then and according to some would have gone out of business as a result. If they ordered 5000 copies ahead of time and then did a normal release and sold 3000, they'd be screwed too wouldn't they?

I don't see how you take a release, do it like normal, open it up at the normal 10am/6pm time slots and just sell to the consumer that they sell less. Either they would have sold the 5000 copies under normal conditions or they wouldn't have with that limited window. You're working on the basis that 2000 copies are sold on the basis of there being a hard limit of knowing there are only 5000 copies versus knowing it's limited since it's only being sold for an hour. In both cases it's known there is a limited window. They could have done it with Night Trap and I guarantee they would have made way more money than they did. The point is to open up more availability while still maintaining the limited factor. To most consumers, they're going to just buy in that window of availability and not watch the stock counter. Hell off the top of my head, I can't tell you the exact number of copies on most of their releases now.

Treat everything as almost a normal release but extend availability window a bit while not conveying that part of the sale should increase their sales, more people will get the game, and less people will complain. For a majority of the people from their view, nothing will change because it will be just like buying a game from them as usual. I'm not talking about a dramatic change, but a minor one that can be used to learn a lot from and should increase sales.



They tweet a ton though. So I don't buy that they don't have time to communicate let alone communicate well.

What you're advocating is they can't grow their business, they're always going to be so fragile that one release can ruin them since they have no buffer, and there's nothing they can do to improve. I don't buy it since not every change is a huge resource impact on them. Better communication is one that has minimal resources but a huge impact.

It doesn't make sense in your mind because you're making the fallacy that there will be equivalent or similar purchasing desire whether it's a stated X number of copies that will ever be printed or an open preorder (even if you limit the amount of time during which you can preorder).

Scalpers primarily want to buy something they can immediately flip for profit. Sure if you limit the preorder to a few hours there will be people who may want it down the road but in the present the vast majority of people who wanted it will have gotten it during the preorder period. Scalpers don't buy things to hold for a long time hoping that the value will increase. So with your suggestion, they're going to lose those scalper sales almost certainly.

 

[Marty Chinn]

It doesn't make sense in your mind because you're making the fallacy that there will be equivalent or similar purchasing desire whether it's a stated X number of copies that will ever be printed or an open preorder (even if you limit the amount of time during which you can preorder).

A very limited preorder window, like just an hour, is not going to dramatically reduce sales. I don't buy your following outline:

1) 5000 copies available at 10am sell when it's known there are 5000 copies and sells in 5 min

but sudddenly if you do

2) Unknown number of copies available for only 1 hour suddenly results in 3000 copies?

Nope, I don't buy it one bit because most don't care about that aspect. it's still going to be limited, and LRG doesn't even have to convey that info of what they're doing and they can pretend it sold out in an hour. Hell make it 30 min. For most people, it's going to be the same as any other release. There are ways to make it almost like a normal release but a small change which they can explore how it affects sales.

I understand the original claim of selling less because of open preorders, but that's when you leave that preorder open for weeks. I'm talking short windows which will retain the limit and won't give people a chance to waffle if they want one.

I'lI bring this back to Night Trap. Are you telling me if they had open orders for 30 minutes, they would have sold less than the copies they sold in the 3 minutes it was available? I can't see a scenario where that is true. I can't see how anyone can think that this wasn't a missed opportunity for LRG that couldn't have been done significantly better. I also can't see how anyone doesn't see we're going to repeat this scenario with Ys. Everyone should see this coming, even LRG and if everyone can see it coming, then it seems like it should be a situation that can be better handled all around.

Scalpers primarily want to buy something they can immediately flip for profit. Sure if you limit the preorder to a few hours there will be people who may want it down the road but in the present the vast majority of people who wanted it will have gotten it during the preorder period. Scalpers don't buy things to hold for a long time hoping that the value will increase. So with your suggestion, they're going to lose those scalper sales almost certainly.

But they can't flip it immediately because they don't have it in hand and LRG isn't shipping things out always in a speedy fashion. Plus, a limited window still makes it limited and because not everyone will be in line to be within that time window, there are always going to be people who miss out and will seek other means. There will still be a market for scalpers.

 

[salaciousdrift]

I think we should be worried that they're so fragile that one release can ruin them though. I think that means they're being too conservative and not building up a buffer. I would hope that after 75 releases they would be in a better spot than 10 releases in.

How long was Drive! Drive! Drive! up on the site before they actually put it up for sale? I wonder if they kept sandbagging the release because they were concerned with how it could be presented to actually sell-out. I am sure the reason for the Lawbreakers bundles had more to do with sales projections on Lawbreakers after it became this year's Battleborn. Want this Wonder Boy? Buy these Lawbreakers. They are in a damned if they do and damned if they don't situation. They can't offer adequate print runs of games people want in great number because they can't pay advances to assure those print run sizes and their current business model allows for bad decisions to be offset by speculators. A pre-order period means that mustache twirling scalpers won't be lining up to buy Nova-111.

 

[Curler]

How long was Drive! Drive! Drive! up on the site before they actually put it up for sale? I wonder if they kept sandbagging the release because they were concerned with how it could be presented to actually sell-out.

They said on here once it was because there was some certification issue with Sony that had it hang up for a while. NOTHING to do with potential sales.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

I use PayPal and have had zero problems ordering everything I want in the first batch. I genuinely don't understand how people are having problems as long as they log into PP 4-5 minutes before and make sure that they're already logged in to LRG before the drop.

People are checking the "Stay logged in for faster checkout" button when they sign into PP...right?

 

[hawk2025]

I use PayPal and have had zero problems ordering everything I want in the first batch. I genuinely don't understand how people are having problems as long as they log into PP 4-5 minutes before and make sure that they're already logged in to LRG before the drop.

People are checking the "Stay logged in for faster checkout" button when they sign into PP...right?

I mean, this is a silly statement through and through.

Congrats on being fast, I suppose, but LRG themselves have said that they often have 3 times as many people as they have stock trying to check out when a product goes live.

By definition a lot of people will miss out.


Anyways, does the Lili regular edition also come with a manual?

 

[Semoreh]

"I didn't bump into any problem, so that means nobody did".
That's so flawed.

 

[KneehighPark]

Without wanting to sound rude, have you read the last few pages of the thread? Your prior experiences and willingness to settle for the PC version are not universally shared.

I'm reading through as I type this. Are people having actual problems with accessing the site, or is it a matter of low inventory. My PS4 copy I tried to order failed on check out; I added to cart but when I hit the final purchase button it told me it was sold out.

EDIT: people are also having checkout issues with Paypal? That sucks.

 

[Olengie]

Half the time it's not Paypal's fault.

Shopify is the problem imo. Unfortunately, we're stuck with it until LRG's contract with them is over.

 

[zeopower6]

Half the time it's not Paypal's fault.

Shopify is the problem imo. Unfortunately, we're stuck with it until LRG's contract with them is over.

That explains things. When does that contract end...? -marks calendar-

 

[foobarry81]

Half the time it's not Paypal's fault.

Shopify is the problem imo. Unfortunately, we're stuck with it until LRG's contract with them is over.

Are LRG actually considering alternatives? They've repeatedly said that Shopify is the best system out there.

 

[DarkOneX]

I use PayPal and have had zero problems ordering everything I want in the first batch. I genuinely don't understand how people are having problems as long as they log into PP 4-5 minutes before and make sure that they're already logged in to LRG before the drop.

People are checking the "Stay logged in for faster checkout" button when they sign into PP...right?

I too got lucky both times, bought the CE in the morning to keep on display as I like collecting special editions and the standard to open and play, but that statement doesn't make sense because obviously more than 5000 or whatever people wanted the game so the unlucky 5001st person and above had problems or simply were just too late.

 

[blazeuk]

Half the time it's not Paypal's fault.

Shopify is the problem imo. Unfortunately, we're stuck with it until LRG's contract with them is over.

It's not even shopify, sure it has it's problems but it holds up remarkably well considering the amount of people who are trying to buy games within a minute or 2 window. The "problem" is the limited nature of releases, you have thousands of people too many trying to buy games and they get thrown into a queue because there are thousands of others before them - this isn't something that is specific to a smaller company like LRG, it happens to large shopping companies when demand is too high compared to supply.

Releases like Night Trap just highlight the complete luck involved with very popular titles because I imagine there are tons of people who clicked at the exact same time but the allocation simply wasn't there to satisfy everyone (which leaves people stuck in a queue despite it already being sold out). It always comes back to the fact that LRG offer limited run releases, there's been plenty of times where it's been obvious they've misjudged demand but that doesn't go against what their business model has always been about, they believe the limited aspect of it drives their sales more and it's hard to argue with that even if it does seem stupid that sometimes they're leaving money on the table.

I'm pretty sure LRG have said in the past that once their print run is done there's nothing stopping the devs then doing another physical print run themselves, it just means the devs would be the ones taking the risk.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

I actually really like Shopify. They seem relatively quick and secure to me.

 

[Weevilone]

Just saw on Twitter that Josh was telling someone that if you are a longtime customer and didn't get Night Trap, open a support ticket and send them a picture of your LRG collection. They will help you out.

I guess that is nice, or at least the intent is. It seems like just one more way for people to get angry though. The number of people they can help as a one off is pretty limited. Now they will have people asking every release.

Heck, I opened a support ticket and they wouldn't even replace a product that was damaged in shipping. I guess then I should have taken a picture of my LRG pile?

 

[BumblebeeCody]

I'm still upset about this.

 

[AlexFlame116]

Just saw on Twitter that Josh was telling someone that if you are a longtime customer and didn't get Night Trap, open a support ticket and send them a picture of your LRG collection. They will help you out.

That's kinda sketchy to me. I don't like it.

 

[Olengie]

I'll save my "Contact Customer Support for help" for something else. lol

 

[dallow_bg]

That's kinda sketchy to me. I don't like it.

It's to be out on a waitlist in case there are extras.

 

[AlexFlame116]

It's to be out on a waitlist in case there are extras.

I got my order for the Night Trap PS4 CE so I'm good to go. But it's just the idea of it for other people who didn't get the preorder but haven't been long time fans.

 

[Weevilone]

I got my order for the Night Trap PS4 CE so I'm good to go. But it's just the idea of it for other people who didn't get the preorder but haven't been long time fans.

And just the fundamental issue that their customer service already takes days to respond, then days between each response. They don't need additional load from stuff like this. Let them handle the actual problems.

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

No wonder Josh and Doug don't come around all that often, what a cesspool of negativity. It's the same shit every release, this is how their business works, why keep rehashing the same stuff every other week? They're not changing it for a couple of vocal complainers on gaf or twitter. They don't need to, they sell out, it's working. Generations of participation trophies at work here where nobody seems capable of handling disappointment with any fucking composure.

They're a business, vote with your wallet, though given that they sell out without your purchase, I doubt it will get you very far. These complaints and suggestions should be detailed in the OP with the reasons LRG has given for how they do things and maybe this thread can get back to being more informational like it was intended.



I'm with you, doesn't look like my kind of game either, which is ok. Just hoping to grab a copy of Y's. It would be nice to start getting some future dates or titles coming soon.

Excellent post.

At this point their business and model is what it is. I've been lucky with every purchase I've made from them with the exception of Soldner X2. I missed out on that and had to resort to eBay.

Vote with your wallet, people.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Vote with your wallet, people.

And voice criticism when appropriate which people are doing.

 

[Fuzzy]

And just the fundamental issue that their customer service already takes days to respond, then days between each response. They don't need additional load from stuff like this. Let them handle the actual problems.

Yeah, they should just save them for BF like they did last year.

 

[MulderYuffie]

anyone know the price of the Ys Origin PS4/Vita and LE versions will be?

 

[CannonFodder52]

It's to be out on a waitlist in case there are extras.

Ah, that's pretty cool.

 

[Ventara]

anyone know the price of the Ys Origin PS4/Vita and LE versions will be?

Less than 2 weeks out you'd think they'd have released the info for this, but nope.

 

[Fuzzy]

Still 2 copies of the Night Trap BD left.

 

[Green Card]

Vote with your wallet, people.

How? They only need to sell 5k copies and they have sold out every game they printed regardless of quality and price. The only way anything will happen is by voicing criticism and convincing them something needs to change or competition.

 

[Dinoegg_96]

anyone know the price of the Ys Origin PS4/Vita and LE versions will be?

IIRC, the standard edition will be $29.99 and the CE $59.99

 

[zeopower6]

Yeah, they should just save them for BF like they did last year.

Reading their FAQ, it must be leftovers that are saved from that 1-2% of copies for lost copies/other issues that ended up not getting used?

Honestly, their formula is 'working' but as more people want the games that they offer, we're running into the issue where more are also not able to get the games they want. I'm not really sure what would change the way they do things besides a release not completely selling out.

 

[Weevilone]

Reading their FAQ, it must be leftovers that are saved from that 1-2% of copies for lost copies/other issues that ended up not getting used?

Honestly, their formula is 'working' but as more people want the games that they offer, we're running into the issue where more are also not able to get the games they want. I'm not really sure what would change the way they do things besides a release not completely selling out.

Not selling out in 2 minutes would be a solid start.

Edit: I might not be reading this correctly. If you are trying to say they won't bother to change things unless something doesn't sell then I would agree with you.

I just read a Twitter comment saying there was no problem because it's not like anyone has died from not getting a video game. My brain imploded.

 

[zeopower6]

Not selling out in 2 minutes would be a solid start.

Edit: I might not be reading this correctly. If you are trying to say they won't bother to change things unless something doesn't sell then I would agree with you.

I just read a Twitter comment saying there was no problem because it's not like anyone has died from not getting a video game. My brain imploded.

Yeah, basically, I don't think they'd bother to change things or rethink the way they handle releases if everything sells out anyway. Why fix what isn't broken? But if something does end up with unsold copies... maybe that'd be the catalyst for change.

 

[The_Kid]

Wait is YS Origin going to be a bloodbath too? Ugh.

 

[zeopower6]

Wait is YS Origin going to be a bloodbath too? Ugh.

Is there any reason it wouldn't be?

 

[Noisepurge]

I actually really like Shopify. They seem relatively quick and secure to me.

There really isn't even any alternatives to Shopify either, i mean anything "better". If you do a custom webshop, it will most likely crash under the pressure.

The only fix LRG can do is print more copies The games should last and be available for a couple of days instead of couple of minutes. Just double the print amounts.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

Wait is YS Origin going to be a bloodbath too? Ugh.

The LE? Probably. The standard? I can't see why when people have had months to preorder the game on import sites as well.

 

[Ventara]

The LE? Probably. The standard? I can't see why when people have had months to preorder the game on import sites as well.

Wonderboy sold pretty fast anyways, so I can see the same thing happening with Ys Origins.

I just read a Twitter comment saying there was no problem because it's not like anyone has died from not getting a video game. My brain imploded.

lol, I guess every small grievance is okay as long as no one dies. No reason to try to fix anything.

 

[Stalk]

Does anyone UK-based want an Oceanhorn trading card? I'll just lose it likely.

 

[MrFortyFive]

The only fix LRG can do is print more copies The games should last and be available for a couple of days instead of couple of minutes.

This is the answer. LRG can tinker with how their shop works and how copies are allocated all they want, but it won't fix a basic problem of supply and demand. It made sense not to want to sit on copies for too long when they first started up. All their money was tied to it. They couldn't afford to sit on unsold copies. The question is now whether or not they've built up the capital to not only increase the average size of print runs, but to possibly sit on unsold copies for a few weeks if they're not sold within a couple days. I'm sure it's not as easy as it sounds.

 

[metalmachine]

Did Plague Road get shipped yet?

 

[Fuzzy]

The LE? Probably. The standard? I can't see why when people have had months to preorder the game on import sites as well.

All versions will sell out in 3 minutes. Asian version being available for so long will have zero impact.

 

[Kresnik258]

When do we get to find out the 2nd game released on the 25th?

 

[Olengie]

Probably this week

 

[sixteen-bit]

Probably this week

I hope it's Nuclear Throne

 

[BloodOmenPT]

Did Plague Road get shipped yet?

Mine has shipped on the 9th of this month, together with Oceanhorn.