London bombings politics/discussion thread
- Thread starter JackFrost2012
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Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
1. People who are willing to kill themselves in an effort to create as much carnage as possible in the real world are functional nihilists regardless of what religious ideals they claim to be doing it for.
2. What are the real reasons behind their actions, oh-unsuperficial-idiot man? Were these guys sitting around saying, "Well, what they did in Afghanistan was justified but now with this Iraq thing I'm going to have to kill myself so I can take some random civilians with me. Sure I like living but this is more important and the only rational conclusion to make based on my full understanding of world events." If you think this happened only because of the invasion of Iraq--and that they were justified in doing it-- then you must believe some form of that conversation took place.
3. Religious fanatics who kill themselves in an effort to commit mass murder are mental defectives. Apparently you're too smart and postmodern to acknowledge that, but here in the real world we do have some standards and expectations about human behavior. One of them is you shouldn't indiscriminately kill people because God told you to.
4. I'm guessing you're not a native speaker of English. If you do live in the West now, then you're full of shit if you think the terrorists are justified in their actions. Your contribution to the tax coffers is fueling future terrorism, which is being planned as we speak by rational, right-thinking terrorists who are acting as they could only be expected to, right? And you're going to keep paying taxes and limit yourself to some poorly worded internet bitching? That means you're full of shit and I can't possibly take you seriously.
2. What are the real reasons behind their actions, oh-unsuperficial-idiot man? Were these guys sitting around saying, "Well, what they did in Afghanistan was justified but now with this Iraq thing I'm going to have to kill myself so I can take some random civilians with me. Sure I like living but this is more important and the only rational conclusion to make based on my full understanding of world events." If you think this happened only because of the invasion of Iraq--and that they were justified in doing it-- then you must believe some form of that conversation took place.
3. Religious fanatics who kill themselves in an effort to commit mass murder are mental defectives. Apparently you're too smart and postmodern to acknowledge that, but here in the real world we do have some standards and expectations about human behavior. One of them is you shouldn't indiscriminately kill people because God told you to.
4. I'm guessing you're not a native speaker of English. If you do live in the West now, then you're full of shit if you think the terrorists are justified in their actions. Your contribution to the tax coffers is fueling future terrorism, which is being planned as we speak by rational, right-thinking terrorists who are acting as they could only be expected to, right? And you're going to keep paying taxes and limit yourself to some poorly worded internet bitching? That means you're full of shit and I can't possibly take you seriously.
Peaceful Islam strikes again!
Tony Blair...you are the traitor to the British people - the ultimate quisling who puts the UK in danger, not from the Iraq campaign, but for constantly jumping to the aid of Islam at every turn, at the expense of the British people. Take for example the new religious hatred laws passed this week - it means anyone 'offended' by for example a comedy routine that takes a dig at a religion such as Judism or Islam will now be illegal - and these laws are specifcally aimed at 'protecting' the Islamic community...wake up Mr Blair, how about protecting the indiginous population from Muslims?
Russian, Israel and numerous other countries have attacked the UK government for harbouring Islamic terrorists, allowing them to preach hatred...and surprise, if you allow these people freedom to roam the county, including tube stations, buses then sure enough they'll blow the shit out of them.
Tony Blair...you are the traitor to the British people - the ultimate quisling who puts the UK in danger, not from the Iraq campaign, but for constantly jumping to the aid of Islam at every turn, at the expense of the British people. Take for example the new religious hatred laws passed this week - it means anyone 'offended' by for example a comedy routine that takes a dig at a religion such as Judism or Islam will now be illegal - and these laws are specifcally aimed at 'protecting' the Islamic community...wake up Mr Blair, how about protecting the indiginous population from Muslims?
Russian, Israel and numerous other countries have attacked the UK government for harbouring Islamic terrorists, allowing them to preach hatred...and surprise, if you allow these people freedom to roam the county, including tube stations, buses then sure enough they'll blow the shit out of them.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but...
I was just talking with a Buddy of mine in the UK (I've made plenty of them after spending 9 months in Scotland)..
He was telling me what a shame it was comparing yesterday to today: Yesterday the papers will overwhelmed with joy over the thought of the Olympics being pulled off in London... today they share in the horror that many hoped they would never really truly know.
What a fucking shame. All GAF UKers are in my thoughts...
I was just talking with a Buddy of mine in the UK (I've made plenty of them after spending 9 months in Scotland)..
He was telling me what a shame it was comparing yesterday to today: Yesterday the papers will overwhelmed with joy over the thought of the Olympics being pulled off in London... today they share in the horror that many hoped they would never really truly know.
What a fucking shame. All GAF UKers are in my thoughts...
fortified_concept
Banned
etiolate said:
If you referring to me, I'm not. I've stated my opinion about the infamous trio of religions (Jewism, Christianity and Islam) and it's not positive. It's just that stereotypes sicken me. Guileless makes it sound like Al Queda are a bunch brainless muslims who just hate USA and its allies because they're christians. Not because of USA's involvement in the Middle East, not because they've attacked numerous countries and killed thousands, not because they've supporting or sabotaging dictators according to their obedience to them, etc. but because they're christians. He also tags anyone against these policies as an Al Queda supporter. See where I'm getting at?
I think the key word in the terrorists' statement is Zionist.
That's the crux of the issue. It's terrible people have to die, but the fact of the matter is that Israel is not going away. Repeated efforts at peace have failed, and all that's left is scared and hateful humans striking out at innocents.
You can argue about who's responsible, and what the politicians have done to exacerbate the situation, but it's a moot point. Anyone who supports Israel's right to exist is a target.
That's the crux of the issue. It's terrible people have to die, but the fact of the matter is that Israel is not going away. Repeated efforts at peace have failed, and all that's left is scared and hateful humans striking out at innocents.
You can argue about who's responsible, and what the politicians have done to exacerbate the situation, but it's a moot point. Anyone who supports Israel's right to exist is a target.
Cockles by the term "indiginous population" I assume you mean us Celts, the Welsh, Scottish and Cornish." You could argue that the gnerations of muslims born in this country are as indiginous as the majority of the population, the Anglo Saxons that is. As for this act my thoughts are the victims and families caught up in what is now a worldwide struggle and not just targeted at countries supporting either Iraq war .
Defending the terrorists = "They were right and justified in killing those people."Nerevar said:
Probing the rationale behind terrorist attacks and avoiding broad generalizations = What fortified_concept posted.
This "WIF US OR AGAINST US" attitude really needs to stop.
fortified_concept
Banned
Nerevar said:
WHY? WHY people can't see that huge line which separates defending someone's actions and understanding the real motives behind certain actions. WHY for god's sake can't you understand that just because I don't think that Al Queda is murdering people because they're christians but because of USA's and their allies involvement in the Middle East, doesn't mean that I'm not furious and disgusted by them and their actions? I partly blame certain western goverments for this, I'm not trying to excuse Al Queda's actions. Can you understand that?
human5892 said:
Oh, so the US disruption of their lives (never mind the fact that the US got involved in the area due to Soviet expansion into Afghanistan ...) is somehow, in any way shape or form, a justification for murder? I could give you a laundry list of world leaders who peaceably made changes to society and got broad civil and political rights granted for their people - be it Martin Luther King, Ghandi, or many others. That is justifiable. Mass murder, what happened today, is in no way justifiable or rational. I don't care what the motives are.
fortified_concept
Banned
human5892 said:
THANK. YOU. My english must suck. There's no other explanation why some people simply can't understand what I'm saying.
I don't see why they feel the need to attack innocent civilians. All I want to do is play some videogames, make a little money at work, eat, sleep, intercourse, and get out and have a little fun sometime. Most importantly be happy. Why should anyone care what God I worship?
Again, when will they learn its not everyones fault that their leaders are in power. Yes, more people should vote but why don't the terrorist go after them? or the ones that voted for the leaders they hate? I can almost see attacking troops when they are in said country (iraq, afghanistan) but why come to our "home turf" and screw things up?
Its almost like they think we will go all rebellious and revolutionary. Behead our leaders and storm the capital. Yeah right I'm 100% sure that would fail miserably unless it was at least 10 million people marching on to the capital, and at this stage that would be impossible.
They are so retarded. oh, this country supports the war lets kill some people. WTF. I know there are millions in this country and I'm sure there's many in London who don't want the war, who want us to get the hell out. Yes some people believe we should be there and yes that may include most of our leaders but how are we supposed to know ALL the decisions they will make while elected?
In the U.S., once a president is elected most likely he will spend the entire 4 years in office. Impeachments are so rare and seem to fail most often that. So if someone makes a bonehead decision 1-2 years after they are elected there is really not much we can do except make sure they aren't re-elected (of course we failed at that).
I really think we are going to hit a mini-dark age with all this crap going on.
With all this time they are wasting on the west, why don't they go back totheir countries and help rebuild? Instead of building a bomb, plant a tree in Iraq, build a school, work on infrastructure, set up wi-fi hotspots, something that will help your country.
Again, when will they learn its not everyones fault that their leaders are in power. Yes, more people should vote but why don't the terrorist go after them? or the ones that voted for the leaders they hate? I can almost see attacking troops when they are in said country (iraq, afghanistan) but why come to our "home turf" and screw things up?
Its almost like they think we will go all rebellious and revolutionary. Behead our leaders and storm the capital. Yeah right I'm 100% sure that would fail miserably unless it was at least 10 million people marching on to the capital, and at this stage that would be impossible.
They are so retarded. oh, this country supports the war lets kill some people. WTF. I know there are millions in this country and I'm sure there's many in London who don't want the war, who want us to get the hell out. Yes some people believe we should be there and yes that may include most of our leaders but how are we supposed to know ALL the decisions they will make while elected?
In the U.S., once a president is elected most likely he will spend the entire 4 years in office. Impeachments are so rare and seem to fail most often that. So if someone makes a bonehead decision 1-2 years after they are elected there is really not much we can do except make sure they aren't re-elected (of course we failed at that).
I really think we are going to hit a mini-dark age with all this crap going on.
With all this time they are wasting on the west, why don't they go back totheir countries and help rebuild? Instead of building a bomb, plant a tree in Iraq, build a school, work on infrastructure, set up wi-fi hotspots, something that will help your country.
"Minor countries" like Spain? Saudi Arabia? Russia? Turkey I guess. And of course attacks in Israel and Iraq. All of these get/got substantial media coverage.fugimax said:
STFU about what the "American media" did and did not report and analyze. What's wrong with you people? Just because you're woefully underinformed doesn't mean the information isn't out there for anyone to absorb.Funky Papa said:
In other words, supporting dictatorships and democracies. In other words, supporting everyone. Saying that conservative isolationists in the ME don't want their governments involved with the US does not in any way justify or explain acts of war by international terrorist organizations. Of course, those ME countries are even more deeply involved with other world governments who don't get nearly the amount of negative heat as the US--but lets just gloss over that fact because fuck the Jews, am I right? What I'm arguing against is this policy that the US gets roundly condemned for hand-shaking, while former colonial powers have their arms fully inserted up to their shoulders, yet are congratulated for their commitment to détente. It's as BS as people trying to justify the 9/11 attacks because the US rejected the Kyoto protocol.Instigator said:
No! No! No!Nerevar said:
I don't know where this is coming from. It wasn't in fortified's post. It wasn't in my post. Talking about why terrorists do what they do is not justifying it. But by getting their point-of-view and rationale instead of shouting "U PUSSIES WE'LL KILL YOU" we better equip ourselves to get to the root of the problem.
Also: I am not ruling out physical retribution to terrorists, if that's where anyone was going to take this next. I am saying that a combative closed-minded attitude is no way to combat an ideology.
fortified_concept said:
when your first reaction is Fuck tony blair for getting us into the war it seems to imply that your anger is directed at people who you think got you involved in this, not the people doing the damage. But have it your way - go somewhere that doesn't want to actively pursue a campaign against terrorism. The plain fact of the matter is that these same sects of Islam have been butchering and killing their own people (and especially other ethnicities - how many buddhists are left in Afghanistan nowadays?) in the middle east for centuries now, I'm sure playing nice with them will get you real far.
Red Blaster
Member
Bin Laden and company seemed like such nice guys back in the 1980s, I mean, we gave them weapons and stuff, right?
Because in their eyes this is not time "wasted". This is a jihad -- a holy war -- that they are specifically instructed to fight as per the basic tennants of their religion due to outsiders encroaching on their holy land and their way of life -- not just recently, but for decades.CoryCubed said:
I agree that they should spend resources and energy improving their own regions, and some certainly do, and I obviously agree that killing people is not a moral or just thing to do, but at the same time it helps to understand where they're coming from too.
Father_Brain
Banned
Huh? The Al-Qaeda leaders got away, the Taliban is still a threat, and the country is so fragmented (with insufficient foreign troops) that Karzai is effectively the mayor of Kabul. That might be better than the status quo before the US invaded (or the current situation in Iraq), but it definitely isn't a "fucking fine job."Ruzbeh said:
I don't see what's funny about this?Razoric said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Their "superficial justifications" for most attacks are not superficial, but are directly related to the root cause -- they believe they are involved in a holy war due to actions from the U.S. and other nations present and past, and have always stated as such. And I thought that's what people like fortified and I were discussing...?APF said:
Red Blaster
Member
Razoric said:
Well, gee. I'm a fucking shitty communist then.
Ruzbeh said:
Yeah such a fine fucking job that Karzai only controls a fifth of the country with the rest being run by warlords.
Razoric said:
:lol :lol :lol
seriously. People seem to forget what started the US involvement in Afghanistan in the first place ..
Bah, whatever, now is not the time to talk about this. Emotions are high and people are going to be pissed off, especially at the whole "This is ALL THE US AND HER ALLIES FAULT FOR GETTING US INVOLVED IN THIS" inanity. I've probably said things I'll regret later, but I just can't stand this pussyfooting around psuedo-justification for what essentially boils down to mass murder.
human5892 said:
Do you have any idea how many things have been the subject of a "jihad" by one terrorist group or another over the past 40 years?
fortified_concept
Banned
Nerevar said:
In my original post I said "fuck you" to both Blair and Al Queda. Go read it. Stop wasting my time by putting words into my mouth or reading what you want. And please explain what you mean by the highlighted sentence. Are you referring to the Iraq War as "a campaign against terrorism"? If you are please tell me so that I can stop arguing with you right now.
boutrosinit
Street Fighter IV World Champion
fortified_concept said:
NO. USA government's pre-9/11 policy was interfere in the bullshit between Israel and so on and hopefully we won't piss anyone off. Post 9/11 policy was "let's attack the country that DIDN'T attack us". SAUDI attacked us, HEY, LET'S GET IRAQ!"
Of course they are. They're superficial to them, I mean. Them meaning the philosophical base of AQ. There's a big difference between what they send-out in certain missives--which are in large part recruitment pitches--and what is revealed in deeper examination of their tenets and guiding principles. They haven't historically been great supporters of the Palestinian cause, IIRC, but that doesn't prevent them from tossing a shout-out if it gets them props.human5892 said:
fortified_concept said:
No, I'm referring to western nations that have taken a stance against terrorism dating to before 9/11. Does your nation support the existence of Israel? Then you're an enemy of these people. Don't try and drag Iraq into this, it's irrelevant to the whole discussion. If Iraq was never invaded do you think the UK would be safe from terrorism? If you are please tell me so I can stop arguing with you right now.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I certainly think "Fuck Bush" in light of this news. Not because he's to blame for terrorist actions, but becuase he's been justifying a *fucking stupid war* in the name of counter-terrorism which he *goddamned knows is not the source of this attack or 9/11* while having more or less given up on going after al Queda.
Which, I realize, is somewhat off-point, but it's goddamned frustrating to have yet another terrosrist attack like this and have my government not only *not* really doing anything about it, but doing something heinous and *pretending* that they are doing something about terrorism.
Which, I realize, is somewhat off-point, but it's goddamned frustrating to have yet another terrosrist attack like this and have my government not only *not* really doing anything about it, but doing something heinous and *pretending* that they are doing something about terrorism.
Nerevar said:
Do you think the destabilisation of Iraq has made the UK safer from terrorism? Because unlike you I live in a world with shades of grey between black and white.
Oh, and if we all claim that we believe the UK would be safe from terrorism if Iraq hadn't been invaded then would you actually just STFU? Because it hurts me inside to see you making yourself look so stupid.
Well, it sort of makes sense. Almost whole world was on our side after 9/11, and he pissed all that goodwill down the drain. If he had focused on Al-Quaeda instead of shakily refocusing his efforts on invading a tenuously related country, Al-Quaeda's presence would probably be much less now, from not only our continued efforts but the help of other nations that could have been behind us along the way.Razoric said:
There will be a similar outpouring of support after this. Hopefully Blair learned from Bush's mistakes and will stay focused on directing that support against the agreed-upon enemy, rather than going off on a tangent whose justification is not so apparent (or hardly there at all).
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
if your god is all about killing and the shit that you fuckers put down
then your god is an out and out cunt.
and i'm talking to islamic and christian fundamentalists here.
If god exists, he's fucking hating every single one of you right now.
oh, p.s. can someone tell the jingoistic fundamental half wits that they aren't the first terrorists to strike london ?
iapetus said:
No, I don't think it's made the UK safer. But invariably the UK is a target of radical Islamic terrorist groups, which is the point I'm trying to make. You can say "Fuck Blair" all you want for the Iraq war, but the fundamental root cause of the terrorist attacks is irrelevant to the Iraq war as a whole. Certainly the terrorists saw what happened in Spain and want a repeat of that in Britain, thus further weakening the international presence in Iraq and further leading to a takeover of a fundamentalist government. Iraq is fucked up, no doubt about it, but knee-jerk reactions such as "get us out of there" doesn't help the situation, it makes it worse. In all Blair should be commended for admitting his mistakes and sticking to his responsibility for helping reshape Iraq into something resembling a functioning democracy eventually (unlike Bush who just dropped the whole WMD issue entirely). In the world we live in terrorism is going to happen in developed westernized countries, whether you want it or not. Bali happened before the Iraq war, it's foolish to think that those sorts of things would have never happened without an Iraq war.
COCKLES said:
Cockles you are an idiot and there seems to be plenty of racial and religous hatred in your posts. You do realise these terrorists will happily kill most muslims thinking they are not true etc. and they are making different Muslim factions fight each other in various countries to cause instability like in Iraq.
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
They had to know something like this would be coming after helping Bush commit war crimes in Iraq.
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