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[butter_stick]

Very few people are motivated to do things like this in such a simple manner - certainly not the hundreds of people who have been rioting throughout the UK. Not all of them. There's social unrest and there's a reason for it. We need to punish these fuckers, yes. To the fullest extent of the law.

But then we need to start working out how we've let things get to this point.






I'm not saying it's excusable and I resent the implication that I would.
I agree that there are plenty of people who have it just as hard - I make fuck all money and struggle to pay my bills, but I don't steal or anything like that. I'm not justifying their actions, I'm saying there are reasons for them - Why can nobody understand the difference???

Maybe the reasoning is that they're bad people. You know how some people are just not very nice? That.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

So what do you suggest? Copying more conservative American methods? Yea working out great over there too. How about even more conservative methods such as those in the Middle East? Yea, even better! No riots there obviously. Or how about full on Communism and state control, loss of freedoms etc such as China? Yea, great result!

Stop letting fear and anger could your judgement.

You don't have to go to either extreme, but I happen to believe that in a culture that defines morals as purely personal decisions and truth as relative, at best, these are the kind of creatures you're going to raise. Somewhere in the middle, perhaps? There are precious few moral compasses left in the children we are raising today.

 

[dragonelite]

I was a bit of a scumbag when I was a kid / teen.

Want to know why I did scummy things? They were exciting... and that's pretty much it.

Who wasn't but looting and pillaging the streets or burning down houses never even came up in our minds.

We did once burned down a bicycle or put other stuff on fire every year we have a illegal Happy new year fire.

Uugh now i grew up a bit almost begging for work(working minimum pay) to get some money when school starts again.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Armed police but it sounds like they're responding to a specific incident.

They're after the guy who fired a gun at a police officer earlier.

 

[Mikeside]

"Jokes" is pretty high up on the reason these people are doing this.

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

 

[Treefingers]

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

No need for this.

There's nothing idiotic about trying to get at underlying causes for why these kids feel that looting & destroying is acceptable.

 

[Kentpaul]

fuck if this guy gets away with shooting at the cops every chav with a handgun is going to try

 

[ClosingADoor]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

Because they don't care and just want to see the world burn. Well, as long as they can get a couple of free iPhones and PlayStations out of it.

 

[Furret]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

Well done, now you get it.

 

[mxgt]

The impulse to label them as mindless and sub-human is just as unconsidered and thoughtless as the impulse to join a hopped-up groupmof rioters running down the streets.

Haha.

If you're a decent human being you don't set fire to things or steal shit.

These people are mindless and we've had to deal with them for a very long time. We know what they're like.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm not saying it's excusable and I resent the implication that I would.
I agree that there are plenty of people who have it just as hard - I make fuck all money and struggle to pay my bills, but I don't steal or anything like that. I'm not justifying their actions, I'm saying there are reasons for them - Why can nobody understand the difference???

I disagree. Even if you don't mean to, I think you're implying that what they are doing is excusable (at least partially) simply by saying that their being monsters is not their fault.

Fuck that. It's hard to argue that they are society's creation when plenty of people under similar circumstances are not out their looting and rioting, and even actively working hard to try and better their situation.

Prison, forced labor, or death are the best way to deal with these barbarians. They've had plenty of opportunities (maybe not as many as more fortunate people--hey, life isn't fair) to get an education and not be a worthless chav, but they chose not to take them.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I'm not saying it's excusable and I resent the implication that I would.
I agree that there are plenty of people who have it just as hard - I make fuck all money and struggle to pay my bills, but I don't steal or anything like that. I'm not justifying their actions, I'm saying there are reasons for them - Why can nobody understand the difference???

To say there are reasons for the violence is to excuse and justify them. They are unemployed - join the 2.3m other people who don't loot. They live in poverty - so do millions of others who don't loot. They didn't get the opportunities - Yes they fucking did, you can take a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

These idiots exist because they think the world owes them a living, we don't owe them anything beyond the same opportunities given to every other person in this country. Education, healthcare and training/apprenticeship schemes for school leavers. If they choose not to work hard, they have to live with the consequences of their choice. Making other, law abiding citizens suffer for their ill thought out lifestyle is not right and deserves our contempt, not understanding.

 

[Maffis]

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

The facts of the matter are exactly as the majority in this thread describe and the evidence of your eyes should make plain.

The reason for the social unrest is because lowlife scum want nice things and they don't want to pay for them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

You don't kill the patient, you kill the cancer. Common saying. Something must be done to stop this from happening again (and punishing the ones who comit these crimes), and you calling him a dangerous idiot for his reasoning is borderline retarded.

 

[marrec]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

Next thing you know they'll be suggesting we just wipe out entire communities of them and their parents. We'd mark them with some kind of Chav mark and round em up and put em to good work in some kind of camp.

 

[nib95]

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

The facts of the matter are exactly as the majority in this thread describe and the evidence of your eyes should make plain.

The reason for the social unrest is because lowlife scum want nice things and they don't want to pay for them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Most of them don't have the means or the same opportunities to afford such things as me and you can. And if you honestly think it's that easy for them to turn things around and make a success of themselves, even with some hard work, I think you're being incredibly unrealistic. Unfortunately the reality is so much harder than that, even for those who HAVE had a helping hand or a step up in life, which the vast majority from these more impoverished areas haven't. In their world they probably get bullied and beaten for breaking from the mould and actually trying to be a keen learner.

 

[Mikeside]

It doesn't matter if their motives are understood or not. It doesn't matter if they are vilified or not. There will always be these kinds of people in the world, no matter how much compassion and understanding we have about them.

Yeah, there will always be these kinds of people in the world. But this many in one generation in one country?

This isn't normal and don't even try to pretend that it is.

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

The facts of the matter are exactly as the majority in this thread describe and the evidence of your eyes should make plain.

Wow, way to make things personal - that's really great, thanks.

So I'm an idiot for realising that there's a reason for all this unrest which is festering in a generation?

The reason for the social unrest is because lowlife scum want nice things and they don't want to pay for them. It isn't any more complicated than that

OK, so why do you think that these people (and remember, this HUGE number of people, mostly from one generation) feel more entitled to these things than you or I? Just because?

 

[Empty]

Chavs in Manchester are infatuated with arson. I live on the edge of private homes bordering an estate and I used to hang around with people from the estate and almost every month they would try to start to start a fire near the nearby youth centre.

yeah. i guess my point was to show a desire for chaos along with the greed. people seem to be putting it down to a violent, unrestrained thug version of my desire for someone to buy me a 3ds for christmas, i.e taking advantage of an opportunity to get things they want, and i'm suggesting that lots of people wanting to watch society burn suggests some strong feeling about where they sit in said society and what society means in general that need to be addressed and considered.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

Because these little shits sit at home all day,every day, scratching their smelly cheese dicks in their tracksuits, glugging cider,smoking weed and playing GTA. This is exciting for them, this is a night out and a chance to get some free shit all while upsetting the rest of the community.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You don't kill the patient, you kill the cancer. Common saying. Something must be done to stop this from happening again (and punishing the ones who comit these crimes), and you calling him a dangerous idiot for his reasoning is borderline retarded.

You could argue society is the patient and these people are the cancer.

 

[mxgt]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

Because they DON'T CARE.

They most likely had a terrible childhood with shitty parents which is why there's so many 13 year old or younger kids roaming around at gone midnight.

These people have no morals or sense of decency. These people find stealing and arson amusing and you want us to not judge or condemn them? sorry no, these people can get wiped out and I wouldn't give a shit. The only thing they contribute is ruining the image of our country.

 

[marrec]

To say there are reasons for the violence is to excuse and justify them. They are unemployed - join the 2.3m other people who don't loot. They live in poverty - so do millions of others who don't loot. They didn't get the opportunities - Yes they fucking did, you can take a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

These idiots exist because they think the world owes them a living, we don't owe them anything beyond the same opportunities given to every other person in this country. Education, healthcare and training/apprenticeship schemes for school leavers. If they choose not to work hard, they have to live with the consequences of their choice, making other, law abiding citizens suffer for their ill thought out lifestyle is not right and deserves our contempt, not understanding.

Wow that's just wrong. You can't frame the debate by making things up.

To say there are reasons for violence is to try to prevent future violence, nothing more.

 

[Kinky John]

Has the Sky News masked chav interview been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkUED0QUOA

 

[FOOTE]

Shit, the diesel depot "explosions" news doesn't sound great.

 

[Detox]

I meant economically. And yes, they are lost causes, but there are reasons why.

I found even this video from The Guardian poignant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI2fJmr7GPI&feature=player_embedded

I know many will just call them scum etc, but like I said earlier, it's easy for us to dissociate because we have not lived the life these youths have.

Well I went to school with the girl Erika in that video. The opportunities were there for us all, I won't lie it was very hard especially with most of the people treating school like a social club. The opportunity is there to get out and there is a decent amount of support with benefits and careers advisers in places like connexions. The problem is some people just are never going to want to learn and they severely impact the learning environment the. The curriculum is also slightly biased towards the middle class especially in English, we all were scratching our heads trying to relate to Pride and Prejudice. Eventually our English teacher with 20+ years of experience told us that we were at a disadvantage by the sheer fact we don't have the same culture at home and that they would expect us to have some knowledge of these books prior to reading.

 

[Mikeside]

Well, that's the problem. No one knows. So many things have been tried to help these people, but we're still stuck with them. Why keep on trying to understand them if they don't want to help themselves?

Because what else are we going to do? Just kill them off and hope that future generations produce less like them? Lock them away and pay for their lives in prison? These people are fucked up and we need to figure out how to help future generations to feel more a part of society.

Maybe the reasoning is that they're bad people. You know how some people are just not very nice? That.

So do you believe that bad people are just bad from birth, or do you believe that people are shaped by their experiences in life?

 

[Ela Hadrun]

I am just so amazed how many people in the UK seem to feel that 'any means necessary' is an appropriate response. Some nut posted in a comment string of a facebook friend, "forget about human rights, these people don't deserve them." The fuck? If your country can't sustain democracy and respect for human rights (which are definitionally rights that HUMANS have) through times of turmoil then you aren't really a first world country.

Who cares if they don't have a fucking mission statement? Crime is something that happens in society and throwing around concepts like mass sterilization or labor camps is pretty fucking disrespectful to the people who have been through such things or are going through such things, and the many millions who died to protect against things like that happening again.

I am fascinated by all the coverage of the ethnic or religious communities that are defending their neighborhoods with a nonviolent show of numbers. I doubt anyone who is calling for a ruthless police state has such a community of their own. They just want to respond to anarchic violence with authoritarian violence.

And I gotta say the comment that the state should take kids that are born after the parents are on welfare away is fucking priceless. GREAT IDEA. The poor and uneducated will save money on birth control and the state will have hundreds of thousands of maladjusted and possibly chemically dependent orphans on their hands! WHAT A GOOD IDEA FOR A COUNTRY.

 

[marrec]

I mean, an entire field of study (History) is basically built on trying to suss out reasons for why people do things so that we can contextualize them into our modern society.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

We don't find it amusing because we have respect for ourselves and for society. They do not. They have no discipline, not at home, not at school and not on the streets. These kids spend a regular night roaming the streets, looking for trouble, causing trouble...because they have nothing better to do. Causing trouble is their entertainment, it's how they pass their time most nights. Of course there are some bandwagon jumpers who have seen this as an opportunity to pick up free things and they are getting in on the act.

I'm not saying these people don't have complaints and reason to be disillusioned, I am sure they do and many of their complaints may even be valid ones. I just don't believe it's that disenchantment which has suddenly sparked this off, it may be the reason they think this is "okay", but it's not what set them off in the first place.

For example, the steal from shops, fine, I get it, they want PS3's, laptops, whatever. But why set somebody's car on fire? Or somebody's home or business? You don't know who it belongs to. That is totally mindless.

 

[Sneds]

Because they DON'T CARE.

They most likely had a terrible childhood with shitty parents which is why there's so many 13 year old or younger kids roaming around at gone midnight.

These people have no morals or sense of decency. These people find stealing and arson amusing and you want us to not judge or condemn them? sorry no, these people can get wiped out and I wouldn't give a shit. The only thing they contribute is ruining the image of our country.

Did you read his post? Where did he say that we shouldn't condemn them. He said that the looters/rioters should be punished, just as I did.

But you can punish someone and still seek to understand their motivation. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Has the Sky News masked chav interview been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkUED0QUOA

My ears and brain.

 

[Dibbz]

We already understand them, they need to be destroyed.

lol I gotta agree with you here. We have to erase every single trace of these scum.

 

[marrec]

We don't find it amusing because we have respect for ourselves and for society. They do not. They have no discipline, not at home, not at school and not on the streets. These kids spend a regular night roaming the streets, looking for trouble, causing trouble...because they have nothing better to do. Causing trouble is their entertainment, it's how they pass their time most nights. Of course there are some bandwagon jumpers who have seen this as an opportunity to pick up free things and they are getting in on the act.

I'm not saying these people don't have complaints and reason to be disillusioned, I am sure they do and many of their complaints may even be valid ones. I just don't believe it's that disenchantment which has suddenly sparked this off, it may be the reason they think this is "okay", but it's not what set them off in the first place.

I think what people are trying to say is that we should try and prevent future generations from having no respect for society or themselves by understanding what drove these ruthless cunts to riots.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Shit, the diesel depot "explosions" news doesn't sound great.

Tottenham rubbish lorry depot apparently.

The trucks were on fire.

 

[Vivalaraza]

I think what people are trying to say is that we should try and prevent future generations from having no respect for society or themselves by understand what drove these ruthless cunts to riots.

Totally agree. Just I don't think it's that these people have somehow been socially wronged and they are revolting because of that. I think it's that they live and have been raised in an environment where there is no discipline and no consequence for any actions.

 

[FStop7]

It's like England has been overrun by juggalos.

 

[Furret]

Most of them don't have the means or the same opportunities to afford such things as me and you can. And if you honestly think it's that easy for them to turn things around and make a success of themselves, even with some hard work, I think you're being incredibly unrealistic. Unfortunately the reality is so much harder than that, even for those who HAVE had a helping hand or a step up in life, which the vast majority from these more impoverished areas haven't. In their world they probably get bullied and beaten for breaking from the mould and actually trying to be a keen learner.

They all have, more or less, exactly the same opportunities that we all do. I had a very poor upbringing, I'm sure many did here, but it has not turned me into a feral, lawless monster. There are no "impoverished" areas in the UK, you make it sound like East Africa.

There are poor areas certainly, but that has always been the case and is the case in every other country in the world, first or third world.

Whathisface with the From Dust avatar is a dangerous idiot because he seeks to find excuses and apologies for these people and what they have done. As others have already argued this is exactly the same kind of namby pamby thinking that has made them bold enough to start rioting in the first place.

We need to stop mollycoddling them and instead punish them severely, not just with a few days in jail but with an overhaul of the welfare system and some sort of legal framework to ensure good parenting.

Or you could just neuter the lot of them, which frankly would probably be the only guaranteed solution.

 

[Osiris]

Okay, so answer me this: why do you think they find this amusing and the rest of us don't?

With the level of thought that many arguments on here seem to suggest, I'm guessing a lot of people respond "Just because they're not human. OMG SCUMBAGS."

I'll tell you why, because they think they can do it and get away without any repercussions, we have allowed abuse of the welfare state to encourage entitlement syndrome and an utter lack of perspective.

They have been provided, for free, an education, health service and welfare "social security" safety net that is the envy of many, and they expect more, not just more in some etherial sense, but more materially.

And want to know the absolute shocker?

I say this as a fully fledged "lefty liberal" who proudly marched against the Tories when Thatcher was in power, has proudly marched with Amnesty International and if they've even lost my sympathy I really hate to think what people with views further to the right are thinking.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

The most disturbing element of this entire ordeal is the fact these people don't respect the authority of their parents. Presumably, they are told not to go out and get involved and yet here they are. Almost every large city in the country has been hit. Rage aside, there are serious questions to answer about how we as a society raise our children.

This began in classrooms. This began in school (my word, the stories I have to share about that). The solution has to begin there. I've had enough of teachers being beaten, thrown down staircases and being forced to break down in tears in front of classrooms.

Spoiler

Bring the cane back

 

[AngryMoth]

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

The facts of the matter are exactly as the majority in this thread describe and the evidence of your eyes should make plain.

The reason for the social unrest is because lowlife scum want nice things and they don't want to pay for them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

So uncalled for. A lot of elitism in this thread at the moment. At least try and use empathy

 

[StealthGoblin]

Has the Sky News masked chav interview been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkUED0QUOA

I bet these stupid things he apparently gets nicked for aren't even stupid.

It'll likely turn out that he's pissed off at legitimately being nicked a few times and wanted revenge.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Has the Sky News masked chav interview been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkUED0QUOA

Youtube comment

Where's andres breivik when you need him?

I shouldn't laugh, but..

 

[butter_stick]

Because what else are we going to do? Just kill them off and hope that future generations produce less like them? Lock them away and pay for their lives in prison? These people are fucked up and we need to figure out how to help future generations to feel more a part of society.




So do you believe that bad people are just bad from birth, or do you believe that people are shaped by their experiences in life?

Of course people are shaped by experiences. But I think you're looking too hard for The Reason Why This Happened when it's a tiny percentage of people that fit a demographic commiting the acts. You can't say its inevitable that people would do this because of a social failing, or a cultural issue, when the majority of people in those situations aren't rioting. The people in question are just the percentage of those people that are moral-less and selfish and are willing to fuck around for their own amusement, or to express their ignorant rage. That's it.

 

[Spokker]

I am just so amazed how many people in the UK seem to feel that 'any means necessary' is an appropriate response. Some nut posted in a comment string of a facebook friend, "forget about human rights, these people don't deserve them." The fuck?

Are you as angry about the people who are looting and rioting?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Because what else are we going to do? Just kill them off and hope that future generations produce less like them? Lock them away and pay for their lives in prison? These people are fucked up and we need to figure out how to help future generations to feel more a part of society.

Force them to work. Let them pay for their own stuff instead of relying on the rest of society to hand them money. It's as simple as that. If the large majority of people can go about their lives without commiting any crimes and find it in themselves to get up early and go to work, why can't these people. The only way to feel you belong in a society is to contribute to it.

 

[Mikeside]

No need for this.

There's nothing idiotic about trying to get at underlying causes for why these kids feel that looting & destroying is acceptable.

Thank you, I'm glad there's somebody in at least some level of agreement with me on this!

Because they don't care and just want to see the world burn. Well, as long as they can get a couple of free iPhones and PlayStations out of it.

That's true - they don't care and they want to see this shit happen. I agree. Do you not think there's a reason they're like that? That's not normal human nature and there is a reason that they're able to do this.

Well done, now you get it.

I'm not sure it's even worth arguing with you about this - we're of totally different opinions and I've no interest in butting heads with you when we're clearly not going to get on.

I disagree. Even if you don't mean to, I think you're implying that what they are doing is excusable (at least partially) simply by saying that their being monsters is not their fault.

There's a difference between a reason and an excuse. Reason is a part of causality - I stole a loaf of bread. The reason is because I'm hungry. That doesn't justify it, it's just causality.

The riots happening have a place in causality and we need to figure out some of the many things that factor into the causality.

 

[Vivalaraza]

The most disturbing element of this entire ordeal is the fact these people don't respect the authority of their parents. Presumably, they are told not to go out and get involved and yet here they are. Almost every large city in the country has been hit. Rage aside, there are serious questions to answer about how we as a society raise our children.

This began in classrooms. This began in school (my word, the stories I have to share about that). The solution has to begin there. I've had enough of teachers being beaten, thrown down staircases and being forced to break down in tears in front of classrooms.

Spoiler

Bring the cane back

Exactly. These people have no respect for anybody in their lives. I hear stories about people beating up their teachers and threatening their parents. They don't have respect for the roof they live under let alone the state.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's pretty clear what is wrong with society. There are too many assholes who don't care about anyone but themselves.

Right, how do you fix that? Thats what we're all trying to say: its easy to point to the problem, but that's useless without the ability to form a solution.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

I bet these stupid things he apparently gets nicked for aren't even stupid.

It'll likely turn out that he's pissed off at legitimately being nicked a few times and wanted revenge.

Isn't drinking in the street like that illegal? lol

 

[mxgt]

Did you read his post? Where did he say that we shouldn't condemn them. He said that the looters/rioters should be punished, just as I did.

But you can punish someone and still seek to understand their motivation. They're not mutually exclusive.

Maybe my post was a little inappropriate but if you've been around these type of people for a while you know what their motivation is and they really don't have one.

These people are broken and I don't see anything changing that in the near future.

 

[marrec]

If the large majority of people can go about their lives without commiting any crimes and find it in themselves to get up early and go to work, why can't these people.

That's the question then... ennit?