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[mxgt]

Fully disagree with this. My parents never hit me or spanked me as a child, and they taught me discipline other ways. Its not about just saying "no", its about establishing control and authority.

Obviously there are exceptions but I wouldn't be surprised if all these rioters were never dealt serious discipline by their parents.

 

[Empty]

Fully disagree with this. My parents never hit me or spanked me as a child, and they taught me discipline other ways. Its not about just saying "no", its about establishing control and authority.

yeah plus i don't think teaching people from an early age that power is earned through control of violence is a particularly useful method for solving the problems of violent youths attacking our streets. discipline is important to instill but it's easily established by other means.

 

[Psychotext]

No what I mean is that I can't believe you can generalise it to this extent. Of course there are some bad parents, whether they be involved in this looting or other shenanigans. But there are probably hundreds if not thousands of these youths out there to which I'm sure the vast majority are not looting with the blessing of their parents. Citing individual cases doesn't rebuke that.

Which is specifically why I didn't say all.

...and I really do believe that "most" of these parents couldn't give a flying fuck what their kids are doing, at least until it gets to the point where it affects them.

That's anecdotal, and personal experience, but it's what I've seen many times first hand (and from family members no less).

 

[Mikeside]

When has there ever been a time when there weren't dregs of society who would turn to banditry and violence at the first opportunity? Probably never.

It's society's responsibility to not tolerate these scum in my opinion. Forget understanding them. Everyone has their own reasons, but they are all bullshit.

So what would you do, just cull those who don't fit in with your views of acceptable society?

So that includes the people involved in these riots. That's fine. Does it also extend to the parents who obviously didn't raise them with better values?
How about the teachers who obviously failed to do so in school?
How about the people responsible for ensuring that schools DO instill these values?

How far does it go?

 

[kamspy]

I've been following this thread from day 1. My sympathies go out to those who've been wronged in this violence.

I don't really know what to post, since I'm all for a little civil unrest. A lot of what's been covered here has gone beyond the point of civil unrest I'd like to see (in the US).

But the arrogance in around half the posts in this thread are almost equally disgusting. As close as words can be to being as disgusting as actions. Have you ever given any thought that this elitist attitude (not exhibited by everyone) is a possible root for these people's mental state?

 

[mxgt]

And you probably respect your parents more for their ability to instill discipline in you without resorting to violence.

I respect my parents for not letting me act like a little shit regardless of how they did it.

And a smack on the bum is not violence.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Ahh, it all makes sense now - basically all humans do what they want so long as they can get away with it. If something is unjust or without excuse, then it must also be without reason.

Got it.

Wrong. Most people will have empathy for other humans and will think twice before committing an act that will hurt others. Some people don't let their desires for personal gain dominate them.

One reason for their actions may be that they completely lack perspective. But how do you instill perspective in someone who actively avoids trying to become educated?

 

[Shaheed79]

I think my labour camp idea is pretty good. I should make a petition...

How very; should I say, illuminating......

Since the IPCC has reported that not only was the bullet found in the radio consistent with the sub machine guns the police were carrying but that the handgun which was recovered from the scene appears to not even have been fired I would say Scotland Yard definitely had a motive to hide information about the shooting.

Riots have a rich history and Europe has been no stranger to rioting of all types including the nonsensical but always necessary soccer club riots. Drunk idiot 1: "We lost!" Drunk idiot 2: "Let's riot!" or Drunk idiot 1: "We won!" Drunk idiot 2: "Let's riot!". Truly captivating socioeconomic issues that desperately needed to be heard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

I hope these riots are concluded soon especially given what sparked them. Looting is never acceptable no matter the circumstances especially if the main victims end up being independently owned small businesses. What makes it worse is when the obvious and inevitable "Rodney King/Dangerfield effect" rears its ugly head. "Hey holmes, thas messed up what they did to Rodney Dangerfield." "Don't you mean Rodney King?" "Yeah whatever Pass me a TV.".

Organized protest is the more politically acceptable method for 2nd and 3rd class citizens to voice their grievances of an injustice and or disfranchisement in general. Depending on the political and economic climate of the community sometimes people just say enough is enough and what starts off as a natural human reaction to excessive frustration and anger quickly spirals into something everyone involved should regret.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I've been following this thread from day 1.

I don't really know what to post, since I'm all for a little civil unrest. A lot of what's been covered here has gone beyond the point of civil unrest I'd like to see (in the US).

But the arrogance in around half the posts in this thread are almost equally disgusting. As close as words can be to being as disgusting as actions. Have you ever given any thought that this elitist attitude (not exhibited by everyone) is a possible root for these people's mental state?

Half of these youths are just bored and are not motivated by a persecution complex, from the impressions I've gotten. When a homeless man can return $3,000 because he didn't "earn it", then no - I am not going to dismiss blame from them. They go to school and are given the opportunity to break from the cycle. They are given the tools to achieve a life for themselves. Instead they're outside doing nothing

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Okay, you be the guy who batons them and brings them to justice.

Can I be the guy who thinks about how to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future?

Well, both are fine, but as another poster said, the psychology part of this needs to take place after the rioting has stopped. These people need to be subdued first so the country stops burning.

 

[timetokill]

And you probably respect your parents more for their ability to instill discipline in you without resorting to violence.

Who says they didn't resort to emotional or psychological violence?

Compared to a lot of things that parents can say to their child, a smack on the butt is hardly "violent."

 

[Pand]

Obviously there are exceptions but I wouldn't be surprised if all these rioters were never dealt serious discipline by their parents.

I'm 26, and a lot of people of my generation were raised without a lot of discipline, including myself. I was taught to think about the bigger picture, however, and to aspire to greater things than material possessions and recognition from peers.

Just saying, teaching/raising goes further than disciplining and punishing.

 

[Mikeside]

I respect my parents for not letting me act like a little shit regardless of how they did it.

And a smack on the bum is not violence.

But a smack on the bum isn't the only beating that some kids get, is it?

Some kids are physically abused by their parents. Some are emotionally abused - some even sexually abused.

My mum never let me do something wrong without making sure I knew exactly why it was wrong that I did it, and if at all possible I was made to make things right. Punishment came, but it was second to teaching me right from wrong.
I was smacked maybe two or three times growing up, but that affected me FAR LESS than when I was told at length exactly why I couldn't take whatever I wanted, or why I should share my things, etc etc.

 

[Sneds]

Well, both are fine, but as another poster said, the psychology part of this needs to take place after the rioting has stopped. These people need to be subdued first so the country stops burning.

Unless you expect us all to go out and bring people to justice Batman style, why don't we discuss the psychology part now?

 

[anonnumber6]

I don't see why it has to be. Respect shouldn't be dependant on how well you get on with an adult if you're a kid. I feared and respected all my teachers, even the substitutes that couldn't handle the class or raise their voice.

Unfortunately a lot of kids who don't perform well at school take advantage of teachers that cannot assert their authority or ones that they are not familiar with like substitute teachers. A teacher doesn't have to be able to tell jokes or be friendly to enforce discipline, a lot of the teacher in my school that no-one raised a voice to were the ones that had a zero-tolerance approach.

Why? Because he/she is the teacher. Simple as that. Whether we personally like each other is irrelevant. You're not going to personally know beforehand every single person you meet in life. What about e.g. bus drivers? Surely they deserve the same respect even if you can't build a rapport with them? What about the people in front of you in that queue? Or that random gentlemen walking towards you who looks vulnerable? Do they need to charm you, do they need to earn your respect before you treat them right? No. You show them respect from the get go. It shouldn't even be a thought process but rather a reflex; one that is taught to you from a very young age.

I think the last sentence is something I would agree on, respect for adults should be taught from a young age. That is the parent's responsibility, not the state's or teacher's. But having kids being only permitted for responsible stable couples isn't feasible but can be encouraged. Possible solutions could be child benefit being moved for only married couples on a certain combined income or even teaching from a young age in schools the importance of only having kids when you are in a committed relationship with financial stability.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So what would you do, just cull those who don't fit in with your views of acceptable society?

So that includes the people involved in these riots. That's fine. Does it also extend to the parents who obviously didn't raise them with better values?
How about the teachers who obviously failed to do so in school?
How about the people responsible for ensuring that schools DO instill these values?

How far does it go?

It goes as far as the shitbag individual. In the end, it's the individuals responsibility to act decent, not society's. You can't blame others for your shittyness.

 

[Mikeside]

Okay, you be the guy who batons them and brings them to justice.

Can I be the guy who thinks about how to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future?

No you can't, because these things just happen for no reason other than some people are bad (or aren't actually people or something) and there's nothing you can do about it.

Except kill them. Or something.

 

[mxgt]

But the arrogance in around half the posts in this thread are almost equally disgusting. As close as words can be to being as disgusting as actions. Have you ever given any thought that this elitist attitude (not exhibited by everyone) is a possible root for these people's mental state?

It's not like we're sitting on thrones in a castle looking down on these people. I'd wager most of us are normal people who have to work hard to get by in life.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I'm mostly against the rioters.

That part that is with them is due to me reading some of the comments in this thread.

 

[Dead Man]

You're an idiot and what's more you're a dangerous idiot.

The facts of the matter are exactly as the majority in this thread describe and the evidence of your eyes should make plain.

The reason for the social unrest is because lowlife scum want nice things and they don't want to pay for them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Yeah, not a real helpful contribution. Don't attack people for wanting to understand why stuff happens, it's poor form.

 

[marrec]

Well, both are fine, but as another poster said, the psychology part of this needs to take place after the rioting has stopped. These people need to be subdued first so the country stops burning.

How we should subdue them is a whole different question.

The only thing we should consider is how to quell the violence without inciting more. Usually that involves large numbers and swift action. Go Roman on their asses and bottle them up.

Specifically in Pittsburgh during the G20, groups of Cops would break off pieces of the larger unruly crowd and funnel them towards other groups of Cops. Of course, that's easy to do with you have large Acoustic Weapons.

 

[Mikeside]

It goes as far as the shitbag individual. In the end, it's the individuals responsibility to act decent, not society's. You can't blame others for your shittyness.

You can if you're not brought up to act like a decent human being. Your personality and opinions are formed by the lessons you're taught growing up, and these people obviously haven't been taught that this behaviour is unacceptable.

To be more clear, I'm sure they know it's unacceptable at face value, but they don't understand that however they're justifying it is still unacceptable and doesn't justify what they're doing at all.

 

[Vivalaraza]

It's not like we're sitting on thrones in a castle looking down on these people. I'd wager most of us are normal people who have to work hard to get by in life.

Made me laugh. True though...elitist? Maybe we are from a different social class but hardly elitist...

 

[Dice]

But the arrogance in around half the posts in this thread are almost equally disgusting. As close as words can be to being as disgusting as actions. Have you ever given any thought that this elitist attitude (not exhibited by everyone) is a possible root for these people's mental state?

I grew up in the ghetto. Most of the childhood friends I had are in jail. I am not. Why? Because when people looked down on me and didn't treat me fairly, I did right anyway, because it was right. I didn't become a lazy escapist slob. I grew as a person and learned and worked and tried. I am still poor, but people generally respect me. If you walk down a disrespectful path you will lose the respect of the public. It isn't elitism, it is a fair judgment of the lifestyle chosen. It is also no excuse for this horrible behavior.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

But the arrogance in around half the posts in this thread are almost equally disgusting. As close as words can be to being as disgusting as actions. Have you ever given any thought that this elitist attitude (not exhibited by everyone) is a possible root for these people's mental state?

Arrogance? It's OUTRAGE. These people are looting charity shops, pulling people out of vehicles, setting fires to peoples business and properties, taking the clothes off of peoples back and wedding rings off of their fingers - I COULDN'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THEIR MENTAL STATE, their actions are disgusting and I have nothing but utter contempt for them, they are scum and should be treated as such.

And with that, I'm out for the night, ya'll can sit there and try and understand WHY? But the answer is simple, because they can, they feel no responsibility for their actions and lack empathy for society, they need fucking removing because they are a cancer that the taxpayers SHOULD NOT be paying for to sustain their selfish, ignorant, violent lifestyles.

 

[CrazyDude]

When was the last big riot in the u.s?

 

[Mikeside]

Well, both are fine, but as another poster said, the psychology part of this needs to take place after the rioting has stopped. These people need to be subdued first so the country stops burning.

Out of interest, does anybody here think that I'm against stopping these people from fucking our country up and bringing them to justice?

I want these people to face the consequences of their actions - whichs prison for a hell of a lot of them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest these scumbags (and I'm not saying they're not scumbags)

Anyone arguing with me really needs to understand my stance on this, at least.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You can if you're not brought up to act like a decent human being. Your personality and opinions are formed by the lessons you're taught growing up, and these people obviously haven't been taught that this behaviour is unacceptable.

To be more clear, I'm sure they know it's unacceptable at face value, but they don't understand that however they're justifying it is still unacceptable and doesn't justify what they're doing at all.

Bullshit. You're may be at a disadvantage, but unless you were kept in a cage and treated like an animal all your life, you should have been able to recognize that your environment is shit after some exposure to the outside world (school, television, trips to town, etc.)

The fact that there are plenty more people in similar situations to these youths who are not rioting goes to show that the rioters have no excuse at all.

 

[Dead Man]

yeah plus i don't think teaching people from an early age that power is earned through control of violence is a particularly useful method for solving the problems of violent youths attacking our streets. discipline is important to instill but it's easily established by other means.

Indeed.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I'm mostly against the rioters.

That part that is with them is due to me reading some of the comments in this thread.

Tell that to the people who have lost their livelihoods and homes or the communities that may suffer from the aftermath. Tell them how upset you are

 

[leadbelly]

lol

Iran blatantly trolling.

Iran has called on the British police to exercise restraint against people protesting over the killing of a Black man in London.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193030.html

 

[DECK'ARD]

BBC: Our Bristol newsroom says a large fire has broken out in Gloucester. Eight fire engines are attending the blaze on Brunswick Road.

Don't like the sound of that, hope no one's homes are affected.

Edit: @SimonR2011 in Gloucester tweets: Police helicopter circling Gloucester. Woolworths & former Gloscat building on fire. Mass looting.

 

[Mikeside]

Bullshit. You're may be at a disadvantage, but unless you were kept in a cage and treated like an animal all your life, you should have been able to recognize that your environment is shit after some exposure to the outside world (school, television, trips to town, etc.)

The fact that there are plenty more people in similar situations to these youths who are not rioting goes to show that the rioters have no excuse at all.

I will pay you £500 if you can find anywhere that I have said that ANYTHING gives the rioters an excuse.

It's like you're misinterpreting me on purpose at this point.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Out of interest, does anybody here think that I'm against stopping these people from fucking our country up and bringing them to justice?

I want these people to face the consequences of their actions - whichs prison for a hell of a lot of them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest these scumbags (and I'm not saying they're not scumbags)

Anyone arguing with me really needs to understand my stance on this, at least.

I definitely think steps need to be taken prevent people from growing up like this. I'll agree with that. Some reform in key areas could help. The problem is that there really isn't a whole lot society can do. Even if everyone were born into the exact same circumstances, there will always be people out there who feel they have deserve more or that they have been wronged in some way and are entitled to vengeance. There will always be lazy self-entitled assholes.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Out of interest, does anybody here think that I'm against stopping these people from fucking our country up and bringing them to justice?

I want these people to face the consequences of their actions - whichs prison for a hell of a lot of them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest these scumbags (and I'm not saying they're not scumbags)

Anyone arguing with me really needs to understand my stance on this, at least.

Course not pal, just think alot of people are very upset right now and want these people stopped before we start thinking about how we can help them. Long term, everyone needs to get on for everything to get better, for now they are obv. in the wrong and I guess people want them to face justice before we step back and look at the wider picture.

Whether that's the right way to go about it or not, who knows...but it's a natural reaction. Maybe when this shit stops people in general will begin to reflect.

 

[storafötter]

Out of interest, does anybody here think that I'm against stopping these people from fucking our country up and bringing them to justice?

I want these people to face the consequences of their actions - whichs prison for a hell of a lot of them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest these scumbags (and I'm not saying they're not scumbags)

Anyone arguing with me really needs to understand my stance on this, at least.

Some people like taking things out of context, I cant believe that people think that finding a reason is an excuse. Then you might as well think everything works by coincidences. Things happen for a reason, no science would work if we couldn't explain or know the cause for things. Everything has a motivation, even if it is a pathetic selfish one.

To some of the posters here. People are not inherited good with a shed of sympathy or empathy, they have to be taught to think this way. Our history proves this point.

 

[marrec]

Out of interest, does anybody here think that I'm against stopping these people from fucking our country up and bringing them to justice?

I want these people to face the consequences of their actions - whichs prison for a hell of a lot of them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest these scumbags (and I'm not saying they're not scumbags)

Anyone arguing with me really needs to understand my stance on this, at least.

This can't be said enough. We all agree that they're beyond Touchy Feely Therapy Rd. and wound up on Lets Go to Prison Ave.

But the majority of people with simply breath a big sigh of relief and forget about anything that ever happened without looking around and asking how the hell it happened in the first place.

Apathy is a major cause. Everyone's Apathetic.

 

[butter_stick]

It's really a fairly simple mentality. Humans basically want status. For most people, they try to get this by getting a job that pays well or buying stupid shit that people will envy, ect. These kids have nothing, so what they want is to be respected. And more specifically, feared. There's a reason they all dress alike and walk around in packs, and it's to intimidate. The rioting is just an extreme way for them to be violent and feel confident about themselves.

 

[Dead Man]

Bullshit. You're may be at a disadvantage, but unless you were kept in a cage and treated like an animal all your life, you should have been able to recognize that your environment is shit after some exposure to the outside world (school, television, trips to town, etc.)

The fact that there are plenty more people in similar situations to these youths who are not rioting goes to show that the rioters have no excuse at all.

So if one person can fix their life, all the people should be able to right? I am not saying these idiots should face no consequences, but this simplistic shit does nothing to help.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

And you probably respect your parents more for their ability to instill discipline in you without resorting to violence.

This is a eurocentric thing maybe?

My dad beat me, but, I respect the shit out of him.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Some people like taking things out of context, I cant believe that people think that finding a reason is an excuse. Then you might as well think everything works by coincidences. Things happen for a reason, no science would work if we couldn't explain or know the cause for things.

To some of the posters here. People are not inherited good with a shed of sympathy or empathy, they have to be taught to think this way. Our history proves this point.

I disagree. While being taught may help, there will always be people who lean either way regardless of their circumstances. Terrible people grow up in loving households that try to teach morals. Really kind and good people also grow up in abusive, ignorant, and hateful households.

 

[FOOTE]

lol

Iran blatantly trolling.



http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193030.html

OK, Iran.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So if one person can fix their life, all the people should be able to right?

Oh, only one person has ever fixed their own life or worked hard to give their children better lives?

I didn't realize the majority of the poor people in England were out there busting shit up.

 

[Mikeside]

Course not pal, just think alot of people are very upset right now and want these people stopped before we start thinking about how we can help them. Long term, everyone needs to get on for everything to get better, for now they are obv. in the wrong and I guess people want them to face justice before we step back and look at the wider picture.

Whether that's the right way to go about it or not, who knows...but it's a natural reaction. Maybe when this shit stops people in general will begin to reflect.

OK, I'm glad.
To clear up another thing - I'm not talking about helping THESE PEOPLE. I'm taking about making sure we do our best that our society instills the right values in future generations so that this doesn't become (or continue to be, depending on how pessimistic you are) the norm.

 

[marrec]

lol

Iran blatantly trolling.



http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193030.html

OhYou.gif

 

[Dead Man]

Oh, it's only one person?

I didn't realize the majority of the poor people in England were out there busting shit up.

LOL way to miss the point. Try this. So if x% of people can do it, so should the other 100-x% of people.

 

[storafötter]

I disagree. While being taught may help, there will always be people who lean either way regardless of their circumstances. Terrible people grow up in loving households that try to teach morals. Really kind and good people also grow up in abusive, ignorant, and hateful households.

I know this is possible, I am not trying to say it is always something that turns out right. I have the experience of the latter. I don't want to excuse people for bad upbringing when I have taken better choices myself despite the lack of encouragement. Some will always not follow this path, however I don't find people inheritable kind in general.
If those people in the past didn't end up preaching human rights as much as today, I don't think most of the population would figure what is fair and just by themselves. Thats why education is probably the most effective and best way we have so far to teach people something for the better for everyone. It might not work always, but is the most effective way as I see it.

 

[Betta Lines]

Was just watching the footage of the Miss Selfridge fire in Manchester. It was just a dress in the window that was set alight, and people just stood around watching it for several minutes, including the BBC guy who was filming it.

Why on earth didn't anyone find a damned extinguisher?

It turned into a significant fire very quickly and that could have been easily prevented if someone had just put out the dress instead of standing around filming the damn thing.

 

[nib95]

I liked this post from a friends wall (within an on-going debate). I prefer to hear things from people who deal with kids like these day in day out, as oppose to armchair critics who come from different worlds and think they have a clue.

I do youth work so I know how much of an impact it will have if we had our youth club shut down. the kids would hang out on the streets, end up doing drugs and all that fake "gangster" crap. we work to keep them off the streets and educate them on how to be decent human beings and high achievers in life. you see, when you look at our community you'll find that the elder lots are all f'd up - doing drugs, dealing, robbing, sleeping with different girls every week and all that. and now they're trying to reform themselves. why? cause they never got fed the proper knowledge as teens, the age when human beings get molded into being who they are. lets face it, society is messed up. the education system is filled with internal racism, I've faced it myself, as well as all my peers. you downgrade and label the people, this is what happens. thats why certain groups of people tend to have the lowest of self-esteem and the mentality of fighting back against the higher ups. Its not an issue restricted to black people. its just the self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Mikeside]

This is a eurocentric thing maybe?

My dad beat me, but, I respect the shit out of him.

I think so, yeah.
I don't think I could respect somebody that had to resort to violence to teach me a lesson or to get their own way. That's probably due to my upbringing, which I've already detailed in this thread.

I really don't mean any disrespect when I say that, and if I could phrase it less plainly, I would.