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[anonnumber6]

Exactly. These people have no respect for anybody in their lives. I hear stories about people beating up their teachers and threatening their parents. They don't have respect for the roof they live under let alone the state.

When these guys see a teacher they can bully they will do so, good teachers don't allow it to happen.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Right, how do you fix that? Thats what we're all trying to say: its easy to point to the problem, but that's useless without the ability to form a solution.

You need to discipline them. Tell them there is a consequence for each action and that they need to earn things in life.

It starts at home. If you're not taught that at home you will not learn it at school or anywhere else apart from in exceptional circumstances.

When these guys see a teacher they can bully they will do so, good teachers don't allow it to happen.

Some truth in what you say but not entirely true mate. I know of good teachers at my high school, great teachers who these kids used to joke around with and "get on with". Then they beat him up when he stood up to them. They take everything for granted.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That's the question then... ennit?

I meant it more in the way of: these people can do that also, so force them if necessary.

 

[DECK'ARD]

The most disturbing element of this entire ordeal is the fact these people don't respect the authority of their parents. Presumably, they are told not to go out and get involved and yet here they are. Almost every large city in the country has been hit. Rage aside, there are serious questions to answer about how we as a society raise our children.

This began in classrooms. This began in school (my word, the stories I have to share about that). The solution has to begin there. I've had enough of teachers being beaten, thrown down staircases and being forced to break down in tears in front of classrooms.

Spoiler

Bring the cane back

I agree education is a large part of this, and schools have gone off in the completely the wrong direction. All this focus on league tables, tests, and ever-shifting upwards pass rates, and maybe ignoring the basics in the process. If parents are sending in kids who may be unruly, and teachers and pupils are basically at the mercy of the trouble-makers, then they just go back home as bad as ever. It's a vicious circle.

Just found out today that the headmaster of the junior school I went to has been removed, the school labelled as failing, and parents doing everything they can to get their kids into another one. Which is now over-subscribed.

It was a great little school, I have no idea how it could turn round like that.

 

[Mikeside]

We don't find it amusing because we have respect for ourselves and for society. They do not. They have no discipline, not at home, not at school and not on the streets. These kids spend a regular night roaming the streets, looking for trouble, causing trouble...because they have nothing better to do. Causing trouble is their entertainment, it's how they pass their time most nights. Of course there are some bandwagon jumpers who have seen this as an opportunity to pick up free things and they are getting in on the act.

I'm not saying these people don't have complaints and reason to be disillusioned, I am sure they do and many of their complaints may even be valid ones. I just don't believe it's that disenchantment which has suddenly sparked this off, it may be the reason they think this is "okay", but it's not what set them off in the first place.

For example, the steal from shops, fine, I get it, they want PS3's, laptops, whatever. But why set somebody's car on fire? Or somebody's home or business? You don't know who it belongs to. That is totally mindless.

Bam. There's a reason. It doesn't justify their actions (and I NEVER said anything justified their actions.) But there's a reason.

Did you read his post? Where did he say that we shouldn't condemn them. He said that the looters/rioters should be punished, just as I did.

But you can punish someone and still seek to understand their motivation. They're not mutually exclusive.

Exactly. Thank you.

I think what people are trying to say is that we should try and prevent future generations from having no respect for society or themselves by understanding what drove these ruthless cunts to riots.

Again, exactly.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The most disturbing element of this entire ordeal is the fact these people don't respect the authority of their parents. Presumably, they are told not to go out and get involved and yet here they are. Almost every large city in the country has been hit. Rage aside, there are serious questions to answer about how we as a society raise our children.

This began in classrooms. This began in school (my word, the stories I have to share about that). The solution has to begin there. I've had enough of teachers being beaten, thrown down staircases and being forced to break down in tears in front of classrooms.

Spoiler

Bring the cane back

Not sure about the cane, smacking should be for parents to do, not teachers. I agree about the complete lack of respect these kids have for everyone and everything, it is because they have never been disciplined properly. Kids that grow up in lawless households will become a law unto themselves and this is the result. Contempt for lives, property and community.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You don't kill the patient, you kill the cancer. Common saying. Something must be done to stop this from happening again (and punishing the ones who comit these crimes), and you calling him a dangerous idiot for his reasoning is borderline retarded.

Great analogy! Don't kill the patient (try to institute sweeping societal changes), kill the cancer (the fucking looters). Punish them so severely that any future potential rioters will have to think twice before doing so.

 

[The Technomancer]

To say there are reasons for the violence is to excuse and justify them. They are unemployed - join the 2.3m other people who don't loot. They live in poverty - so do millions of others who don't loot. They didn't get the opportunities - Yes they fucking did, you can take a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

Ahaha, really? No. The first step to controlling something is understanding it.

 

[SmokyDave]

I think what people are trying to say is that we should try and prevent future generations from having no respect for society or themselves by understanding what drove these ruthless cunts to riots.

Sure, but that won't stop our streets from burning will it?

The hand-wringing comes after the 'clean-up'.

 

[marrec]

I meant it more in the way of: these people can do that also, so force them if necessary.

But the way you framed the question is exactly what we should be asking. These people who are looting and rioting are obviously the basest of society and should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The future generations who may even be watching all of this right now need the benefit of our experience so that they aren't brought up in an environment that allows them have no morals or respect.

 

[Mikeside]

To say there are reasons for the violence is to excuse and justify them.

I couldn't disagree with that more. Surely if that's true, it's true for anything.

To say that there's a reason for something does NOT mean there's an excuse for it.

I got to work late. The reason: I got up late. That doesn't excuse the fact that I'm late, but it is the REASON I'm late.

If you can't see the difference there, I don't think we're going to move forward in this discussion.

 

[Spokker]

Philadelphia is dealing with a similar issue of out of control young people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsbFt_vkKc

The reporter even suggests some "old school butt whippin'." Parents are rightly blamed, but what do you do when the parents aren't even willing to hear the message? They're talking about public shame as well, but the question is whether or not the law will allow it.

 

[butter_stick]

I'm 25, so I'm old enough that my solution to most problems is "force kids in to national service" and "no under 18s on the street after 10pm".

In 10 years I'll probably just want them all deported.

 

[Pand]

I think that, because these kids have no discipline, and probably no real aspirations besides getting the latest iphone, they don't have a real grasp on life either. No control. They're in control now, or at least they feel like they are.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

When these guys see a teacher they can bully they will do so, good teachers don't allow it to happen.

Respect isn't dependant on charisma - it should come as standard, irrespective of the teachers character. It's no good messing about in all your classes but one - all you're learning there is to be selective in who you show respect to; the complete opposite of what we need here. It begins at home. My mum tells me where she grew up (Africa), you'd be change your stride, make sure you're shirt is tucked in and be expected to greet them politely - and this is when you see them on the street on the bloody weekend nevermind the classroom!

 

[Psychotext]

The most disturbing element of this entire ordeal is the fact these people don't respect the authority of their parents. Presumably, they are told not to go out and get involved and yet here they are.

I really doubt most of them have been told not to get involved. This isn't the first generation of chavs you know.

Hell, I'd wager a bunch of them were given shopping lists.

 

[AgentChris]

This is still going on... stay safe London-GAF.

 

[marrec]

Sure, but that won't stop our streets from burning will it?

The hand-wringing comes after the 'clean-up'.

Nobody is hand-wringing, just trying to temper the attitudes of the 'kill-em-all' folk with a bit of reason. The only thing that will stop the burning is perhaps a larger show of police force.

We certainly don't want to wait until they run out of stuff to loot.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I am just so amazed how many people in the UK seem to feel that 'any means necessary' is an appropriate response. Some nut posted in a comment string of a facebook friend, "forget about human rights, these people don't deserve them." The fuck? If your country can't sustain democracy and respect for human rights (which are definitionally rights that HUMANS have) through times of turmoil then you aren't really a first world country.

Pretend for a second that this was a foreign invasion of young terrorists. What do you think England's response would be to that? Do you think there would be much outcry for human rights if England acted in self defense and gunned down the assaulting parties?

Just because these fuckers may happen to have British citizenship doesn't mean they should be treated differently than any other terrorist or invader. These aren't individual cases. These are opportunist scumbags who are semi-organized and know exactly what they are getting into. They are assaulting their fellow country men.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

0131: There have been reports of a series of loud explosions at a diesel depot near Tottenham High Road, in North London. The fire, police and ambulance services are all at the scene, between Ashley Road and Park View Road. The police have been telling residents they are assessing the situation, to decide whether they will need to start evacuating houses nearby.

hopefully those people in homes are safe

 

[Mikeside]

I'm 25, so I'm old enough that my solution to most problems is "force kids in to national service" and "no under 18s on the street after 10pm".

In 10 years I'll probably just want them all deported.

I agree with national service. I think that if I had to do a year of national service, I'd probably be a far more motivated and disciplined person.

Surely you think that's a good idea is for similar reasons? To instill discipline and give life skills?

 

[Vivalaraza]

I really doubt most of them have been told not to get involved. This isn't the first generation of chavs you know.

Hell, I'd wager a bunch of them were given shopping lists.

Exactly. And this is what's frightening. These yobs are giving birth to another generation of children who have no guidance in their lives. How you get a grip of that...I honestly don't know.

 

[Bleepey]

I'll tell you why, because they think they can do it and get away without any repercussions, we have allowed abuse of the welfare state to encourage entitlement syndrome and an utter lack of perspective.

They have been provided, for free, an education, health service and welfare "social security" safety net that is the envy of many, and they expect more, not just more in some etherial sense, but more materially.

And want to know the absolute shocker?

I say this as a fully fledged "lefty liberal" who proudly marched against the Tories when Thatcher was in power, has proudly marched with Amnesty International and if they've even lost my sympathy I really hate to think what people with views further to the right are thinking.

This oh dear lord. I believe in Social justice and economic mobilisation but these fucks through their parents not trainig them properly. Have lost a lot of sympathy, do not deserve any empathy and lord help me i am shuddering to think the line of thought i am thinking. Some of the most leftwing of leftwingers made Margaret Thatcher seem like Ken Livingstone and that's just the leftwingers. I am just repeating what has been said but fuck these guys.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But the way you framed the question is exactly what we should be asking. These people who are looting and rioting are obviously the basest of society and should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The future generations who may even be watching all of this right now need the benefit of our experience so that they aren't brought up in an environment that allows them have no morals or respect.

There is little we can do to change this I'm afraid. It's up to the parents. And how do you force parents to be a good parent? It's almost impossible.

So the best we can do is punish the ones who cause trouble (and their parents) as hard as possible and force them to go to school or work when they are adults.

 

[The Technomancer]

I am just so amazed how many people in the UK seem to feel that 'any means necessary' is an appropriate response. Some nut posted in a comment string of a facebook friend, "forget about human rights, these people don't deserve them." The fuck? If your country can't sustain democracy and respect for human rights (which are definitionally rights that HUMANS have) through times of turmoil then you aren't really a first world country..

I'm one of the more "soft" members on GAF when it comes to social issues and criminals, and even to me the moment you become a violent individual threatening innocent lives you forfeit your safety. If the firebombers are caught, let em go to trial. If they're shot you won't find me shedding a tear.

 

[ColR100]

The Wire - Season 4.

I can see similarities.

 

[Empty]

Sure, but that won't stop our streets from burning will it?

The hand-wringing comes after the 'clean-up'.

the clean-up is going fine at the moment and we can do both things.

if we don't discuss these issues now while everyone is paying attention to the story they'll dissapear and be forgotten about till the next riot when the problems are even worse as parents pass their feelings of economic and political hopelessness and lack of connection to society onto their children.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Exactly. And this is what's frightening. These yobs are giving birth to another generation of children who have no guidance in their lives. How you get a grip of that...I honestly don't know.

And the government is giving these scum housing and benefits to have more scum offspring! It's a vicious cycle

 

[anonnumber6]

Respect isn't dependant on charisma - it should come as standard, irrespective of the teachers character. It's no good messing about in all your classes but one - all you're learning there is to be selective in who you show respect to; the complete opposite of what we need here. It begins at home. My mum tells me where she grew up (Africa), you'd be change your stride, make sure you're shirt is tucked in and be expected to greet them politely - and this is when you see them on the street on the bloody weekend nevermind the classroom!

I would say a teacher's character and demeanour is integral to enforcing discipline. A teacher that doesn't have the confidence to stand up to students can't control a classroom.

But then I would argue most of the problems are due to parenting, if a child was taught how to respect authority from a young age then, like a lot of us on these forums, we grow up letting teachers do their jobs regardless of their ability.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I really doubt most of them have been told not to get involved. This isn't the first generation of chavs you know.

Hell, I'd wager a bunch of them were given shopping lists.

I can't believe that.

 

[kaizoku]

stupid argument is stupid, both sides are right. There is no reason for this rioting other than greed and selfishness.

But the other side is right, we have to figure out why this is the case. Why do these people have no sense of decency or morality? It's something thats been coming for a long time. It erupted now but these sentiments have been around for years. Im not gonna get too into it as its a super deep topic that may have no real or easy answer and no one will listen anyway.

But a few things are clear:

Education isn't great. People are ill disciplined, have no respect or useable skills once they leave which breeds further angst. They have no remorse for their actions or what harm they cause innocents.

No sense of community - you find that the people who haven't rioted are those with strong communities, be it ethnic communities such as those turks, sikhs, hell even the racists, or more social communities such as workers or subscribers to say a tech community or arts community.

What these riots have done is given these idiots a sense of community. They've found people like them doing something together and they've embraced it. They know what they're doing is wrong but its a thrill and they get lots of free shit


Honestly I think more compulsory things need to happen in school. Compulsory hobbies or clubs like in japan to encourage sports or arts and interaction. Could even be compulsory community service or military service. maybe :S

 

[Mikeside]

I think that, because these kids have no discipline, and probably no real aspirations besides getting the latest iphone, they don't have a real grasp on life either. No control. They're in control now, or at least they feel like they are.

Again, I agree with this totally.
I think a lack of discipline is a contributing factor to what is happening here, so I think we need to look at how we can instill discipline in kids from a young age - starting at home, but extending to authority figures both in schools and the wider world (including police etc).
I think these kids have a total lack of respect for their parents and authority figures in general, so I think we need to figure out how to better help kids to understand how they can fit into the world post-education.

I also think these kids have been desensitised to aggression and violence and so we need to step back and ask ourselves how society can help future generations to find other ways to show their discontent.

 

[SunhiLegend]

Parents need to teach their kids discipline, its starts in the home where they grow up. I knew if i ever got in trouble my dad or my mom would give me a good smacking, it tought me about consequences. Kids like those scum walk all over their parents, have no respect and lack discipline. No consequences for their actions.

 

[Vivalaraza]

And the government is giving these scum housing and benefits to have more scum offspring! It's a vicious cycle

Whilst I won't say we should take benefits away from these people it's certainly a problem. It's a desirable lifestyle to live on benefits and pay for your luxuries via crime. That needs to stop, whether it's less help from the state or tougher consequences on crime or both...we need people to want to do better for themselves.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

There's a difference between a reason and an excuse. Reason is a part of causality - I stole a loaf of bread. The reason is because I'm hungry. That doesn't justify it, it's just causality.

Sorry, no. That's an 'excuse'. It's an attempt to justify what is otherwise an unjust action.

Here's a reason: "I'm hungry because I have not eaten have no food to eat." No food = hunger. That's causality.

Stealing something because you want it (you're hungry) is not a reason; it's an excuse.

 

[Psychotext]

I can't believe that.

Then you don't know people like this.

Don't get me wrong, it's a problem that can be solved, but it's going to take 40 years to fix it completely.

 

[marrec]

There is little we can do to change this I'm afraid. It's up to the parents. And how do you force parents to be a good parent? It's almost impossible.

So the best we can do is punish the ones who cause trouble (and their parents) as hard as possible and force them to go to school or work when they are adults.

It's always better to try and find causes and solutions, of course, Libral USA has been doing this for decades and have only succeeded in fomenting such a split in American politics that our credit has taken a hit. (Oversimplification).

Soon we will have the benefit of the eyes of all the leaders of the western democratized world looking at London and the surrounding communities and wondering just what the hell went wrong.

Lets not bury our heads in the sand this time.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

I can't believe that.

There were families of these pond life in Manchester earlier, my aunt saw parents passing bricks and stones to their children to launch at the police

 

[mxgt]

Parents need to teach their kids discipline, its starts in the home where they grow up. I knew if i ever got in trouble my dad or my mom would give me a good smacking, it tought me about consequences. Kids like those scum walk all over their parents, have no respect and lack discipline. No consequences for their actions.

Didn't you know that smacking your kid is child abuse and just saying no will have the same effect?!

There are too many shitty parents out there to ever permanently solve this issue, sadly.

 

[jett]

I thought brits were upstanding gentlemen!

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I would say a teacher's character and demeanour is integral to enforcing discipline. A teacher that doesn't have the confidence to stand up to students can't control a classroom.

But then I would argue most of the problems are due to parenting, if a child was taught how to respect authority from a young age then like a lot of us on these forums we grow up letting teachers do their jobs regardless of their ability.

I don't see why it has to be. Respect shouldn't be dependant on how well you get on with an adult if you're a kid. I feared and respected all my teachers, even the substitutes that couldn't handle the class or raise their voice. Why? Because he/she is the teacher. Simple as that. Whether we personally like each other is irrelevant. You're not going to personally know every single person you meet in life beforehand. What about e.g. bus drivers? Surely they deserve the same respect even if you can't build a rapport with them? What about the people in front of you in that queue? Or that random gentlemen walking towards you who looks vulnerable? Do they need to charm you, do they need to earn your respect before you treat them right? No. You show them respect from the get go. It shouldn't even be a thought process but rather a reflex; one that is taught to you from a very young age.

Then you don't know people like this.

Don't get me wrong, it's a problem that can be solved, but it's going to take 40 years to fix it completely.

There were families of these pond life in Manchester earlier, my aunt saw parents passing bricks and stones to their children to launch at the police

No what I mean is that I can't believe you can generalise it to this extent. Of course there are some bad parents, whether they be involved in this looting or other shenanigans. But there are probably hundreds if not thousands of these youths out there to which I'm sure the vast majority are not looting with the blessing of their parents. Citing individual cases doesn't rebuke that.

 

[Mikeside]

Sorry, no. That's an 'excuse'. It's an attempt to justify what is otherwise an unjust action.

Here's a reason: "I'm hungry because I have not eaten have no food to eat." No food = hunger. That's causality.

Stealing something because you want it (you're hungry) is not a reason; it's an excuse.

It's only an excuse if I believe that it excuses me for doing it.

In this hypothetical situation, I regret stealing the bread, but I still recognise the reason for doing it.

Regret (thus a lack of needing to excuse myself for doing it) does not remove the reason for doing it.

There were reasons that the holocaust happened, but it's no excuse.

 

[The Technomancer]

Sorry, no. That's an 'excuse'. It's an attempt to justify what is otherwise an unjust action.

Here's a reason: "I'm hungry because I have not eaten have no food to eat." No food = hunger. That's causality.

Stealing something because you want it (you're hungry) is not a reason; it's an excuse.

What? So all of human psychology is useless since perfect free will is the sole causal reason behind any human-driven event?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

0143: A number of the police cordons that were in place around Manchester have now been lifted and the city centre is being opened again.

some good news!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It's only an excuse if I believe that it excuses me for doing it.

In this hypothetical situation, I regret stealing the bread, but I still recognise the reason for doing it.

Regret (thus a lack of needing to excuse myself for doing it) does not remove the reason for doing it.

There were reasons that the holocaust happened, but it's no excuse.

Could we have a thread on politics and crime and for once not drag the Holocaust into it.

 

[Mikeside]

Ahh, it all makes sense now - basically all humans do what they want so long as they can get away with it. If something is unjust or without excuse, then it must also be without reason.

Got it.

Could we have a thread on politics and crime and for once not drag the Holocaust into it.

It's a very relatable and powerful example because it's something everybody has knowledge on.

 

[The Technomancer]

Didn't you know that smacking your kid is child abuse and just saying no will have the same effect?!

There are too many shitty parents out there to ever permanently solve this issue, sadly.

Fully disagree with this. My parents never hit me or spanked me as a child, and they taught me discipline other ways. Its not about just saying "no", its about establishing control and authority.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

When has there ever been a time when there weren't dregs of society who would turn to banditry and violence at the first opportunity? Probably never.

It's society's responsibility to not tolerate these scum in my opinion. Forget understanding them. Everyone has their own reasons, but they are all bullshit.

 

[Mikeside]

Fully disagree with this. My parents never hit me or spanked me as a child, and they taught me discipline other ways. Its not about just saying "no", its about establishing control and authority.

And you probably respect your parents more for their ability to instill discipline in you without resorting to violence.

 

[marrec]

When has there ever been a time when there weren't dregs of society who would turn to banditry and violence at the first opportunity? Probably never.

It's society's responsibility to not tolerate these scum in my opinion. Forget understanding them. Everyone has their own reasons, but they are all bullshit.

Okay, you be the guy who batons them and brings them to justice.

Can I be the guy who thinks about how to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future?