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London riots spreading through UK
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Not only that but the officers who arrested him were from a special task force packing sub-machine guns and the bullet in the radio was from a sub machine gun. Not only that but an eye witness stated that Mark and the cabi driver where both being held down by two police officers each on the ground when the shots were fired.Shogun PaiN said:
Marks family wanted some answers and Scotland Yard didn't have any answers. That is what started the unrest and not some crazy gang bangers who wanted to avenge the death of a potential murderer who tried to kill a policeman as some here seem to believe.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Sneds said:
Speaking for myself I didn't say that it was the fault of our welfare state that led to the feelings of entitlement, but rather than our allowance of widespread abuse of our welfare system has led to it. When those on benefits are capable of bringing in a larger income from it than those working there is a problem.
I'm self-employed, if I quit tomorrow and claimed dole/housing benefit instead my income would nearly double, in addition to that there are weaknesses with our system that allow many to claim far far more than is needed as a responsible social safety net.
When the welfare system becomes the path of least resistance to a comfortable life without any need for self-advancement or self-sufficiency it becomes a problem, and encourages abnormal entitlement and a lack of perspective.
We're not talking about people not being able to eat/house themselves rebelling against the system because of disenfrachisement, we're talking about people who can't get an Audi rather than the old banger they have feeling entitled to more than they have because others have it, regardless of whether they earn it or not.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
What's the term "dole" mean?
Starfish_Oxide
Member
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Unemployment benefits
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Sneds said:
Benefits are fairly recession proof, income as a self-employed person however, are not.
I earned about 16k last year, and due to the economy will be lucky to break £9k-£10k this year, my worst in over 15 years. (Previous to that I can't complain at getting a steady £17-£20k)
If I just said fuck it and threw in the towel, due to my circumstances (Married, 2 children) the total I would get from all benefits/tax credits and everything I could possibly claim for would top £13k to £14k.
So yes, I could get more by doing nothing than by working my ass off and that's nuts, those that game the system (Sickness benefit mostly) can push £15k to £18k a year easily. So excuse me, if despite Liberal leanings, I find it hard to give a damn single fuck about how disenfranchised some of them feel.
Nomad Blue
Member
Shaheed79 said:
Did the eye witness report what they saw to the people holding the investigation? Has the cabbie given his evidence? I call total and utter bullshit tbh. There's no way, just no way, that the police held someone down in the street and executed them in front of witnesses(not that they'd do it if there were no witnesses either). There's something wrong with you if you believe that, or you've got a bias.
Maybe because there was an investigation going on and they couldn't give out too many details until that had ended? He had a gun. If you carry a gun, expect to get shot. Nobody should have any sympathy for him. His family, maybe, but they seem to be painting him as some sort of good egg.
Osiris said:
I agree.
Osiris said:
Disenfranchisement isn't just about money. It can be about cultural capital, stigmatism, etc. So even if you earn less than someone on benefits, you could still have a higher social standing.
For example, I'm a part-time PhD student. I earn very little each year - much less than £13k. But I'm relatively well educated, am white, and was born into a stable middle class family. This means that, even though I might actually have less money than someone on benefits, my life still might be more comfortable. I feel that I have things to lose and that, generally, I am treated with respect and as a valuable member of society. This impacts how I view the world and my place in it. Other people might have more money than me but might actually be worse off socially.
Nomad Blue said:
What he said is indeed utter bollocks from what we know so far.
Only 2 shots were fired by the same officer, one hit him in the chest which was fatal and the other went through his bicep and lodged in the officer's radio.
He wasn't being held down for that to happen.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Oh okay, I've heard on the dole before, but I thought it was a technical term in this case.DECK'ARD said:
Ether_Snake
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DECK'ARD said:
But I do wonder how the officer who got the bullet in his radio could have positioned himself for that to happen. Why would an officer shoot at the guy, if another officer is behind or right next to him? I can imagine if the police officer was under the guy holding him this would have happened, probably as they fell down.
Ether_Snake
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Osiris said:
But for it to ricochet and go in another officer's radio, that officer must have been pretty close. That means it's likely two of them were at least approaching the guy from two different angles or both facing one another with the guy in between. Which means shooting in such circumstances sound iffy unless the guy was suicidal, cause in such circumstances the guy would have had no choice but to just give up.
LazerRanger
Member
Just got home from work and heard the crappy news that two Muslim brothers were run over and killed in Handsworth, Birmingham (my hometown).
Very worried I'm going to wake up to hear people inciting a race war...
Very worried I'm going to wake up to hear people inciting a race war...
lilsting10 said:
It began when Police shot dead a black man named Mark Duggan in London. People initially took part in peaceful protests but this then became violent:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14434318
Since then the situation has spiralled. People are using the riots as an opportunity to destroy property and loot shops. It's now spread to other cities in England. It might be that many of the people now involved in the riots have no real knowledge of Mark Duggan, although that's difficult to know.
There's an ongoing investigation into Duggan's death. It's been alleged that he shot first at the Police and then they fired back, killing him. Duggan was carrying a gun but initial findings suggest that it hadn't been fired.
Two men (both brothers) died from injuries suffered after being ran over while defending their neighborhood with a third still critically injured as of about 2 hours ago.
http://twitter.com/#!/WMPolice/status/101103241152053248
The confirmation of their deaths comes from Sangat TV, whose crew was at the hospital.
http://twitter.com/#!/WMPolice/status/101103241152053248
The confirmation of their deaths comes from Sangat TV, whose crew was at the hospital.
Ether_Snake said:
We're going to have to wait for all the details to be filled in, but it all suggests one of the officers felt threatened and maybe panicked. I believe that was what he statement said, that he felt threatened, probably because he thought Duggan was going for a gun. Or maybe tried to point it at him.
Duggan wouldn't have been able to do either if he was being restrained, not do I think they would fired into his chest and arm with anyone doing so. And going for or attempting to use the gun might be why his arm got hit, and the other officer. It probably wasn't the ideal time to fire, this could have all happened very quickly.
It's clear things didn't go to plan, and he shouldn't have been killed, but he was armed and the gun was loaded.
_Xenon_ said:
We have both, and they've both been used.
The problem on the first night was they used a stand-off policy because of the outcries over recent protests and incidents at them. That let looters see they could get away with stuff, so next day they came back in far greater numbers which overwhelmed the number of police who were on duty. Which was only a couple of thousand.
The same thing happened last night on an even greater scale, tonight though London was flooded with police and that quashed most of it.
Gary Whitta
Member
Aad
Member
Smiles and Cries
Member
Gary Whitta said:
perfect they deserve much public humiliation
Damn....what a bunch of twits that are rioting.Aad said:
gutter_trash
Banned
Canada's Pierre Trudeau rightfully used the armed forces with War Measures act to fight home grown terrorists in the 70s (rightfully so)
I don't understand why Britain doesn't do the same with these youth punks who are cause 10000x more damage
I don't understand why Britain doesn't do the same with these youth punks who are cause 10000x more damage
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Smiles and Cries said:
They'll probably end up shopping themselves boasting to the wrong person how they are "famous" for being on the front page of the Sun.
gutter_trash
Banned
don't know if anyone posted this of an over-head view of a store getting looted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsS8kTQkjfE&feature=player_embedded
you see some walking away with flatscreens in the 2nd half of the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsS8kTQkjfE&feature=player_embedded
you see some walking away with flatscreens in the 2nd half of the video
Liberty4all
Banned
Osiris said:
14 thousand pounds a year? That's about 21 thousand us/Canadian. In contrast in Canada
our welfare pays about 7200 CDN a year (approx 4000 - 4500 pounds a year give or take) for a single person collecting. Cost of living is way cheaper here mind you but not THAT cheap.
Your benefits are insane. I'm assuming for a couple it doubles? Geez
Edit: reread your post. Ok for a family your system pays out 14 thousand pounds approx. In Canada a couple with child can claim around 13 thousand CDN a year which is around 9000 pounds a year or so ... Factor in major cost of living differences its similar Although I think you guys still come out ahead.
Ether_Snake
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Yeah the UK needs to rethink the whole nanny state thing. I'm pro Keynesian, pro-middle class, but not pro-gaming the system, or pro-wasting taxpayer money.
Aad said:
Sad stuff. May the brothers be granted Paradise. Scary seeing stuff like these because any of those Asians could hit the streets tomorrow with revenge attacks against the mobs, and then we have a real war on the streets.
On a more positive note, Bengali brothers from East London fought off rioters in Whitechapel and Sikh's protected a mosque whilst Muslim's prayed inside. Then those same Muslim's later protected Sikh temples in Southhall.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...16000-police-on-capitals-streets-2334910.html
Black Republican
Member
just wanted to say Sikhs are awesome
Glad the hawks calling anybody trying to analyse the situation from longer than a "Break their legs and get them off the street" perspective pussies have buzzed off. Not that I don't agree the cops need to use more force right now, but turning your mindless rage on the people rationally trying to think about this more long-term is doing nobody any favours.
Its got nowt to do with welfare etc etc its just horrible cunts being horrible cunts, it happend in the 80s its happend in the past and it will happen again in the future there will always be scum in this world be they on the dole or have a job. Most of these arnt even of an age to claim dole.
This is a pretty in-depth article about British civility in light of the riots. It goes a little into the difference between the U.S. and Britain as well:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/no-shame-no-limits-has-the-behaviour-of-the-mob-destroyed-the-idea-of-british-civility-for-ever-2334863.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/no-shame-no-limits-has-the-behaviour-of-the-mob-destroyed-the-idea-of-british-civility-for-ever-2334863.html
Mecha_Infantry
Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
I'm sure one of the riots/looters would give back something they stole. We're talking on a much larger scale
What the post you quoted at has given me an idea of whats been happening. On my FB (I've had to delete people) on the news and here has shown an elitist view on what's happening. People talking about killing kids, etc, all probably posting from their Apple devices and plush homes.
I know people always think that their tracksuits and stuff mean that they aren't living in poverty, but let me tell you that means nothing. It's dole money. It's not the VAULE of their clothes, it's the means of getting them0 non-working parents, probably un-educated, etc.
I still think the government needs to listen to the kids. Even if they say "it's the government, innit", then ask them WHY. There is a reason why they do this. It's not mindless, these kids aren't dumb, they aren't stupid. There is something systematically wrong with their generation, but no one wants to know why, everyone wants to just condemn them to be mindless stupid, chavvy kids.
All I can say I hope now some of you brave behind the screen warriors who call for blood for the Duggan kids, some of the kids looting need to get a grip. None(a small amount maybe) of you might not have the mentality of these pups, so it's easy to condemn them, but for me as someone from Wood Green (next to Tottenham/Hackney) I know what it's like to grow up like that. Luckily my mother, sister and brother helped guide me, but that's hardly happening now
The kids doing this shit were wrong, they need to get punished, but don't vilify them, forgive up on them. Help the parents and the family, give them something to look forward to. They're fucking kids...
Barnaby_Jones
Member
From what I've seen both on the news and today in Salford and Manchester, I can safely say that it's a situation such as this that will make the public beg to have their liberties taken from them in the name of security. This is how it starts. From here, things can only become more restrictive really. We already live in a time where this is happening. These problems will just act as catalysts and before long the scary thoughts about how "they" (whoever you believe they to be) could control us, could very well become a reality that the public cry out for... to save them.
Mecha_Infantry
Banned
Barnaby_Jones said:
More CCTV?
MarshMellow96
Member
Some guy on Sky News said it was because kids today don't partake in enough 'wholesome' activities..
Barnaby_Jones
Member
Mecha_Infantry said:
This is just one aspect.
RFID is already making its way into American notes I believe. What's to say that in the near future, it wont be in every single item that had been looted or dare I say it without sounding like a conspiracy nut, people?
Also, it might sound weird but if you told someone 10 years ago to put their dog on a lead, they'd laugh at you and call you something so it's not that far-fetched to say that if crime rates at night in certain areas got that bad and the police were struggling to bring them down, a curfew could be enforced potentially.
Or even if it was just that these police were used more frequently in day to day life, to subconsciously provide the presence and authority that these command over regular officers.
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