fortified_concept said:
I didn't imply that there's good intent; anger and frustration are certainly not "good". But justifiable? Maybe. All demonstrations don't start for the same reason and there are levels of violence and in each one of them depending the level of frustration and sense of injustice demonstrators feel. This is the result of years of economic terrorism and injustice, this is the result of an angry and disgusted youth and a ruined western society that only cares about wealth and power.
So yes I won't stand of the side of the "grown-ups" who created this rotten society, I'll stand on the side of the angry kids even if many of them are being stupid at least they're angry at something instead of sitting idly and accepting injustice and murder. As it already been told most of the demonstrators might not be political but the demonstrations are.
Do you ever wonder why you always find yourself at the heart of these debates, with people venting at you and ridiculing your positions? I would say that it seems to be what you want, what you crave.
I've seen you in the US poligaf threads, and you're obviously a good and thoughtful person. Now and then you have a good point to make. But you always, ALWAYS, default to almost risible far-left viewpoints whether you are in possession of facts or not, whether you have a stake in the matter or not, and regardless of your actual knowledge and experience.
Every one of us here in the UK, who are sitting mouth agape at just how lilly livered and ignorant you are being -- we aren't telling you that you are wrong about this because we're more centrist or right wing than you, we're telling you that you're wrong because you are.
These were NOT demonstrations. You have a very warped definition of demonstrations if you think that's what these were. Secondly, it seems to be an imperative of yours to characterise what these kids were feeling as anger, and what they were doing as insurrection or rebellion. The people who marched to the police station on Tottenham's High Road to demand answers and an inquiry into the death of Mark Duggan --
those were demonstrators. The people kicking shop windows in, looting, and committing assault and arson? Those were simply criminals filling a power vacuum once they realised that the police were caught off guard, too few in number, and too reluctant to risk another Ian Tomlinson debacle .
Do yourself a favour, go back through the thread, watch some videos, read some interviews - with the people actually doing those things. There are people here who grew up on council estates, or know people who did. People here who have family or friends with this mindset. There are people here who have been this calibre of tearaway when they were younger themselves. This is not some new phenomenon, and its certainly not a political uprising... there is inequality and injustice in Britain today, there is always inequality and injustice in any society. But this is a time of relative plenty compared to past generations, and this kind of widespread criminal action is unprecedented.
I'm as liberal as they come for a Briton, but I know that the issue here is not just inequality or some lack of socialist ideals -- it is the lack of structure in our society, the lack of responsibility, of respect and discipline... it is the result of having 2nd and 3rd generations of families in a long line of broken homes, and unemployment, and poor education. It is the result of criminal enterprise offering more to some people than regular enterprise. That is not to say that these people have acted out of political awareness of that reality:- the people here have long known that is the reality, and they have been resourceful enough to survive it without rioting before now. Social mobility
is something that people care about here. I daresay we care about it and that we are more motivated to tackle it than Obama's lot over the pond.
What has happened here is that people have acted in riotous self interest, in the knowledge that they could smash things up and take things, and burn things -- with almost complete impunity. What they weren't going to keep, they were planning to sell. Obviously a persons place in society, their wealth or lack of it, factors into their decision to take these kind of criminal risks, but what everyone here in Britain knows is this: this is not something they had to do to stay above the breadline. They are provided for in that regard. This is not something that they *wanted* to do to stick it to "the man" or something. This is something they did because they wanted new things, or because they wanted to sell things. Some of them were definitely in it for capitalist gain. The ones who committed assault and arson, and pelted the police? They were engaging in one-upsmanship with one another and brinksmanship with the law... they were having fun doing whatever they could get away with. And make no mistake, they won't be talking themselves up to their mates as though they are some kind of working class heroes: they will be gloating about what hard, 'bad' men they are and sharing stories of the things that they got away with.
Here YOU are trying to romanticise them as some sort of struggling proletariat... please.
This is a far cry from some of the riots in Britain in the 1970s and 80s, which many of us here would have probably supported... this was criminal exploitation of a power and authority vacuum.
It was exacerbated by the effect of instant news and instant messaging -- rioters were able to pick targets and to evade heavily policed areas. Yes, the same kind of dynamic, on-line mobilisation that helped
actual demonstrations and opposition movements in other countries. The government talking about restricting social media in a time of crisis is purely bluster -- they know it will never fly, and they know that actually, it would make them look as bad as Iran or North Korea. I dare say that in the coming weeks, social media will actually help pin point some of the perpetrators of these crimes, because a lot of them were dumb enough to post pictures of their loot on twitpic, or gloat about their hoard on facebook. I am sure that is the conclusion the government will come to, be in no doubt all you tin foil hatters out there...
Again, f_c... watch the interviews. Hear the words. They are quite frank about it. They did it for the adventure, they did it because they could, they did it because it was a laugh, they did it for the freebies. Had they thought there was any real prospect of being caught and locked up? They wouldn't have done it for three nights running. Its that simple.
or got the money over a long period of time.
