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London riots spreading through UK

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Ooccoo

Ooccoo

Member
Morn said:
Hot Fuzz 2 being filmed!!
IoCeL.jpg
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Wait, what?!
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
Saw this on the Guardian
Great-Manchester-Polices--001.jpg


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/police-wanted-riot-suspects-looter#

Police forces in Manchester and Birmingham are taking what they call a "bold" attempt to identify looters by displaying the faces of suspects on giant advertising hoardings around the two cities.

Greater Manchester Police will project digital images from CCTV footage on a giant screen in Piccadilly Gardens and the Printworks entertainment complex at the heart of the city before the end of Friday.

The images of those suspected of taking part in the riots earlier this week will also be displayed on mobile advertising vans as part of its "Shop a Looter" campaign.

In Birminghan, West Midlands police are already displaying footage of suspected rioters and looters outside the shops where the goods were stolen.

A van, with a giant display unit on the side, is showing more than 50 CCTV images of the wanted people between 7am and 7pm on Friday and Saturday.

Mark Rushton, WMP acting detective inspector, said the response to the billboard vans was "amazing" because people found it easier to go up to an officer to say they know the person on screen than to phone in with their information.

The move is part of a wider digital media strategy being deployed by both police forces, which also includes the use of Twitter, Facebook and Flickr accounts where images of suspects are being displayed.

GMP has been updating its Twitter account with constant warnings that the criminals will be caught. "We are monitoring Twitter 24 hours a day until the message sinks in – if you use it to incite any violence, you'll be arrested," said one post.

The force's assistant chief constable, Garry Shewan, said images had been flooding in since Tuesday when violence broke out in Manchester and neighbouring Salford, which is also overseen by GMP.

"That is why we have taken the bold step of publishing these people's pictures right across Greater Manchester," Shewan added
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GMP's Flickr Account is gold!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/

Can anyone paste some of the images in
Weeeeee
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6032841378/in/photostream/

Durrr!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6032841370/in/photostream

They'll never catch me!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6028713944/in/photostream

GMP's Convicted Gallery Pictures
http://www.gmp.police.uk/disorderconvictions
 
P

Prez

Member
Dambrosi said:
I've given it some thought, taking into consideration radioheadrule83's post above, and here's what I came up with:

  • Forced full-time education in lieu of benefits for ALL convicted offenders, regardless of age, instead of imprisonment. The goal is to prevent "prison rot" and save the taxpayer money, as well as giving the offender something productive to do with their "time"
  • When they're not in school, force them to do indefinite community service for the duration of the sentence (ie, if the sentence is three years forced ed, have them also do CS for those three years). The goal is to keep them too busy/tired to re-offend
  • Dress them in special, easily recognisable uniforms while engaged in forced ed and CS. Humiliation works wonders as a deterrent, as someone else in this very thread already noted
  • At the end of their sentence, give them all the help they need to reintegrate into normal society (both monetary and infrastructure-wise)
Please tell me if you find anything wrong or bad in my proposals, I didn't really think about them for too long.
Click to expand...

Yeah but none of these will ever happen. One of the reasons why democracy sucks.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Saw this on the Guardian
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/12/1313163619350/Great-Manchester-Polices--001.jpg[ /img]

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/police-wanted-riot-suspects-looter#[/url]



GMP's Flickr Account is gold!
[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/[/url]

Can anyone paste some of the images in
Weeeeee
[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6032841378/in/photostream/[/url]

Durrr!
[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6032841370/in/photostream[/url]

They'll never catch me!
[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpwanted/6028713944/in/photostream[/url]

GMP's Convicted Gallery Pictures
[url]http://www.gmp.police.uk/disorderconvictions[/url][/QUOTE]

GMP > *

The Met need to look at their tactics and learn. They made all the wrong moves.
Click to expand...
 
K

kitch9

Banned
Dambrosi said:
I've given it some thought, taking into consideration radioheadrule83's post above, and here's what I came up with:

  • Forced full-time education in lieu of benefits for ALL convicted offenders, regardless of age, instead of imprisonment. The goal is to prevent "prison rot" and save the taxpayer money, as well as giving the offender something productive to do with their "time"
  • When they're not in school, force them to do indefinite community service for the duration of the sentence (ie, if the sentence is three years forced ed, have them also do CS for those three years). The goal is to keep them too busy/tired to re-offend
  • Dress them in special, easily recognisable uniforms while engaged in forced ed and CS. Humiliation works wonders as a deterrent, as someone else in this very thread already noted
  • At the end of their sentence, give them all the help they need to reintegrate into normal society (both monetary and infrastructure-wise)
Please tell me if you find anything wrong or bad in my proposals, I didn't really think about them for too long.


...

You're an arsehole. Nonetheless, I wish you a long and prosperous life.
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Arsehole, lol.

I'm not a head slapping pansy more like.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list

Good source from some raw data.

In an indication of the tough justice being meted out to people accused of offences related to this week's riots, a Guardian analysis of more than 150 cases before magistrates courts so far has found the majority of defendants being remanded in custody - even when they have pleaded guilty to relatively minor offences.

As hundreds of cases fly through specially-convened night sittings of magistrates courts, the Guardian is embarking on a project to catalogue who is going to court and what is happening to them.
Click to expand...

You can even download the spread on the Guardians page. Anyone recognize any names? lol
 
D

Dambrosi

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
That's a fine list, but I am almost certain that there are human rights violations in that list. Right to a private life etc...

It would be enforceable with pre-1998 laws before the government pased the HRA. A lot of these solutions that people and politicians are talking about with contravene the HRA. The long term lasting solution for us is to repeal the HRA and replace it will a bill of rights that would suit our way of life better than a continental way of life
Click to expand...
Like I said, I didn't think about them for more than five minutes, so they may still need some fine-tuning.

Plus, I'm always intensely wary of people who want to replace the HRA, which has served us relatively well for the entire time it's been in law. Especially those who want to dictate what they think my "human rights" should be, particularly with an ideological agenda in mind. No thanks.

Stabbie said:
Yeah but none of these will ever happen. One of the reasons why democracy sucks.
Click to expand...
Democracy doesn't suck, it's the people involved who suck. Always remember this.

Plus, if it's alright to play Fantasy Football, why not Fantasy Politics? :p

kitch9 said:
Arsehole, lol.

I'm not a head slapping pansy more like.
Click to expand...
Bitch, I will CUT YOU.

:p

it'sanavatarjokepleasedon'tbanme
 
P

Prez

Member
Dambrosi said:
Democracy doesn't suck, it's the people involved who suck. Always remember this.

Plus, if it's alright to play Fantasy Football, why not Fantasy Politics? :p
Click to expand...

Okay then, bureaucracy sucks.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Dambrosi said:
Like I said, I didn't think about them for more than five minutes, so they may still need some fine-tuning.

Plus, I'm always intensely wary of people who want to replace the HRA, which has served us relatively well for the entire time it's been in law. Especially those who want to dictate what they think my "human rights" should be, particularly with an ideological agenda in mind. No thanks.
Click to expand...

I think the list itself is good and would work, but it would never be enforceable.

I think many, many people forget that Britain functioned just fine before the HRA was enshrined into law in 1998. British law is sufficient to deal with the rights of its citizens, it always has been. Introducing the HRA was a Labour policy intended to make Britain ready to join the Euro and eventually a United States of Europe (which failed with the EU constitution) by unifying local laws around Europe to a single standard based around continental assumptions.

The problem is that our way of life is different to that of the continent, and it makes the ECHR unsuitable for Britain as we have seen with daft rulings that generate a lot of public anger.
 
D

Dambrosi

Banned
Stabbie said:
Okay then, bureaucracy sucks.
Click to expand...
Better. Oh, and "Corruption sucks", "Abuse of power sucks", "Authoritarianism sucks", etc.

zomgbbqftw said:
I think the list itself is good and would work, but it would never be enforceable.
Click to expand...
Sure it would be - just fit the offenders with explosive ankle bracelets. They scarper, they lose a foot.

Joking aside, surely some form of electronic tagging and curfew, plus real penalties for non-cooperation (temporary removal of benefits, for example, like in the Work Programme) would help with enforcement.

zomgbbqftw said:
I think many, many people forget that Britain functioned just fine before the HRA was enshrined into law in 1998. British law is sufficient to deal with the rights of its citizens, it always has been. Introducing the HRA was a Labour policy intended to make Britain ready to join the Euro and eventually a United States of Europe (which failed with the EU constitution) by unifying local laws around Europe to a single standard based around continental assumptions.
The problem is that our way of life is different to that of the continent, and it makes the ECHR unsuitable for Britain as we have seen with daft rulings that generate a lot of public anger.
Click to expand...
That's all true, but then again, the efficacy of the law with regard to human rights pre-HRA was dependent in large part on the trustworthiness of the people making those laws.

And I'm sorry, but I'd trust today's politicians about as far as I could throw them.

There's no way in Hell I'd trust Theresa May or David Cameron not to insert provisions that favour their ideological beliefs into the Bill Of Rights, for example. Harriet Harman, either.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Dambrosi said:
Sure it would be - just fit the offenders with explosive ankle bracelets. They scarper, they lose a foot.

Joking aside, surely some form of electronic tagging and curfew, plus real penalties for non-cooperation (temporary removal of benefits, for example, like in the Work Programme) would help with enforcement.
Click to expand...

Haha, would be great. Agreed, benefits are the one thing that we as society have which they want/need. We need to use that to much greater effect. The deterrent method is good, but can cause a lot of splash damage from those used as the preliminary test cases. Active use is much better since they can earn them back with good behaviour, I have always been of the opinion that benefits should stop being automatic after a certain period of time.

That's all true, but then again, the efficacy of the law with regard to human rights pre-HRA was dependent in large part on the trustworthiness of the people making those laws.

And I'm sorry, but I'd trust today's politicians about as far as I could throw them.

There's no way in Hell I'd trust Theresa May or David Cameron not to insert provisions that favour their ideological beliefs into the Bill Of Rights, for example. Harriet Harman, either.
Click to expand...

It's judges really, and even if politicians really had any say they are at least accountable to the public unlike the Strasbourg courts. If a bill of rights were introduced it would be done on a cross party basis with a judges sitting on the committee as well. It wouldn't get through the Lords without cross party support.
 
D

Deku

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
It's judges really, and even if politicians really had any say they are at least accountable to the public unlike the Strasbourg courts. If a bill of rights were introduced it would be done on a cross party basis with a judges sitting on the committee as well. It wouldn't get through the Lords without cross party support.
Click to expand...

How are human rights cases heard in the UK?

In Canada we have provincial and federal Human Rights tribunals that are appointed and essentially unaccountable.

Post 9/11 they were a flashpoint as some Muslim group tried to sue a news magazine for 'slandering' their faith. And the group/person making the complaint has their lawyers paid for while the defendants have to pay out of pocket which bacame an issue itself -- in terms of the HRT being used as a blunt intrument to intimidate and shut down speech.

I generally do not have a positive view of unelected and unaccountable tribunals.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Deku said:
How are human rights cases heard in the UK?

In Canada we have provincial and federal Human Rights tribunals that are accountable to no one.

Post 9/11 they were a flashpoint as some Muslim group tried to sue a news magazine for 'slandering' their faith.

I generally do not have a positive view of unelected and unaccountable tribunals.
Click to expand...

Well the law lords, or now the supreme court, interpret the HRA and hear the cases in the UK. Appeals can be made to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg which has judges present from each of the member countries. Special cases are also heard at the ECHR.

The problem we have in the UK is that the HRA is based on the convention which was drawn up in Europe, and one of the founding principles is that it is supra-national which means that the judicial branch of the government in the UK is usurped by the Strasbourg court. A lot of people don't like it for that reason, and that reason alone.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Deku said:
How are human rights cases heard in the UK?

In Canada we have provincial and federal Human Rights tribunals that are appointed and essentially unaccountable.

Post 9/11 they were a flashpoint as some Muslim group tried to sue a news magazine for 'slandering' their faith. And the group/person making the complaint has their lawyers paid for while the defendants have to pay out of pocket which bacame an issue itself -- in terms of the HRT being used as a blunt intrument to intimidate and shut down speech.

I generally do not have a positive view of unelected and unaccountable tribunals.
Click to expand...
you don't want electable judges like in the US; that shit is corrupt and fucked up down there.

the US supreme court voted Corporations as people (concerning campaign donations)

you don't want Canadian courts to turn like US ones
 
T

The Albatross

Member
gutter_trash said:
you don't want electable judges like in the US; that shit is corrupt and fucked up down there.

the US supreme court voted Corporations as people (concerning campaign donations)

you don't want Canadian courts to turn like US ones
Click to expand...

..? Judges aren't elected in the United States, least of all the US Supreme Court..? But, really, just don't bother talking about US Supreme Court cases unless you know what you're talking about.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
The Albatross said:
..? Judges aren't elected in the United States, least of all the US Supreme Court..? But, really, just don't bother talking about US Supreme Court cases unless you know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
In some states and cities they are. None on the federal level of course.
 
E

el retorno

Member
gutter_trash said:
you don't want electable judges like in the US; that shit is corrupt and fucked up down there.

the US supreme court voted Corporations as people (concerning campaign donations)

you don't want Canadian courts to turn like US ones
Click to expand...
The supreme court isn't elected. And our supreme court is pretty darn good barring a few cases. I wouldn't trade it for any in the world. Where do you get the corruption charge?
 
D

Deku

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Well the law lords, or now the supreme court, interpret the HRA and hear the cases in the UK. Appeals can be made to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg which has judges present from each of the member countries. Special cases are also heard at the ECHR.

The problem we have in the UK is that the HRA is based on the convention which was drawn up in Europe, and one of the founding principles is that it is supra-national which means that the judicial branch of the government in the UK is usurped by the Strasbourg court. A lot of people don't like it for that reason, and that reason alone.
Click to expand...

So I assume if a party didn't like the ruling they got, they could take it all the way to the EU HR court?
 
K

Kentpaul

When keepin it real goes wrong. Very, very wrong.
Chav age

Just seen a drunk zombie chav drunk out his mind stagger past my window crying

the dude clearly got smashed of other chavs

LOL
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Deku said:
So I assume if a party didn't like the ruling they got, they could take it all the way to the EU HR court?
Click to expand...

Yes, if they are defeated by the supreme court they can take it to the ECHR on appeal. It is this which irritates most people in the UK, some think it safeguards the rights of the people, but most find it irritating since the judges in this country are probably the best in the world and they very, very rarely get it wrong.
 
M

More Fun To Compute

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Yes, if they are defeated by the supreme court they can take it to the ECHR on appeal. It is this which irritates most people in the UK, some think it safeguards the rights of the people, but most find it irritating since the judges in this country are probably the best in the world and they very, very rarely get it wrong.
Click to expand...

Our legal system is also incredibly expensive compared to most. And I would say that the perception of it being very rarely wrong is dangerous because you can be sure that there are enough innocent people inside and guilty people outside to worry anybody with a conscience.
 
K

killer_clank

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Yes, if they are defeated by the supreme court they can take it to the ECHR on appeal. It is this which irritates most people in the UK, some think it safeguards the rights of the people, but most find it irritating since the judges in this country are probably the best in the world and they very, very rarely get it wrong.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the odd system in the UK with respects to having multiple legal systems in one country. There was a recent row in Scotland about Scots law cases being taken in the UK supreme court instead of going to Strasbourg as they should. It turns out no judge in the EHCR practices Scots law, so it was decided that was the best option.
 
F

f0rk

Member
Saw one of the screens in Birmingham today. There were a few police around as well, it was weird wouldn't mind having police walking the streets all the time.
 
D

Dambrosi

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Yes, if they are defeated by the supreme court they can take it to the ECHR on appeal. It is this which irritates most people in the UK, some think it safeguards the rights of the people, but most find it irritating since the judges in this country are probably the best in the world and they very, very rarely get it wrong.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but that smacks a little of egoism. Can you empirically prove that a British judge practices British law better than a French judge practices French law, or a German judge German laws, etc.? Of course not, so saying that "our judges are Carlsberg's slogan" is a baseless notion, just as similar statements from French or German people regarding their own judges would be.

Although, that said, I'd still trust the Supreme Court and the Law Lords (and yes, the ECHR too) over most of the current generation of MPs any day of the week.

Oh, and since when have benefits been automatic? I'm currently unemployed myself (yeah, yeah, dole scum, get it out of your system guys), and every single time I've had to sign on for Jobseeker's Allowance, I've had to provide proof that I've been looking for work for the two-week period after my last signing. No proof, no money - and as far as I know, that extends to my Housing and Council Tax benefits as well, without which I would literally not be able to house myself. I'm always mindful of this, and since I'm going on the Work Programme soon, it'll be even more strict - one late appointment, I stand to lose benefits. Pretty harsh, but if it works, and I get a job out of it, then eh.

If it doesn't, though, and I have to go back on the dole again after two years of that bullshit, I'll be mightily pissed off.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Dambrosi said:
I'm sorry, but that smacks a little of egoism. Can you empirically prove that a British judge practices British law better than a French judge practices French law, or a German judge German laws, etc.? Of course not, so saying that "our judges are Carlsberg's slogan" is a baseless notion, just as similar statements from French or German people regarding their own judges would be.

Although, that said, I'd still trust the Supreme Court and the Law Lords (and yes, the ECHR too) over most of the current generation of MPs any day of the week.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure about empirical evidence, but I am sure it is a widely held belief, here and abroad, that the British justice system, while not infallible, is about as good as it gets. The whole Megrahi affair did us a lot of reputational damage in the international community since there has always been a belief that British courts can't be bought off and that they are truly independent.
 
D

Dambrosi

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
I'm not really sure about empirical evidence, but I am sure it is a widely held belief, here and abroad, that the British justice system, while not infallible, is about as good as it gets. The whole Megrahi affair did us a lot of reputational damage in the international community since there has always been a belief that British courts can't be bought off and that they are truly independent.
Click to expand...
I had that in mind when I replied to you, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thanks.

Still, at least we don't (and, hopefully, will never) have corrupt judges selling kids to private juvenile prisons, like in America. Seriously, it made my blood boil when I heard about that.
 
A

Ace Harding

Member
Bleepey said:
Grass, snitch, inform on.
Click to expand...
Ah - thanks mate. Following all of this has increased my British English vocabulary.

I'm also learning that not everything is perfect and friendly over there. Still seems like a great place to live with lots of fantastic people, but a political and social landscape as complex as anywhere else and some of the same problems we deal with on the left bank of the Atlantic. Let us know if you get it sorted out - we could use the help.
 
D

Dambrosi

Banned
Bleepey said:
Grass, snitch, inform on.
Click to expand...
In most of these people's neighbourhoods, that's never going to work. "Snitches Get Stitches" and the like. Informing to the police is a huge taboo in large swathes of metropolitan Britain, and has been since forever.
 
M

Manos: The Hans of Fate

Banned
Dambrosi said:
In most of these people's neighbourhoods, that's never going to work. "Snitches Get Stitches" and the like. Informing to the police is a huge taboo in large swathes of metropolitan Britain, and has been since forever.
Click to expand...

The influence of Cam-rom sadly over matches Cameron.

I hate that Stop Snitchin crap, you see it especially in Philadelphia at times.

-Oh no you can't talk to the cops, thats wrong,
-But that guy killed my friend.
-DONT BE A SNITCH. DIPSET!!
 
D

dalin80

Banned
Dambrosi said:
In most of these people's neighbourhoods, that's never going to work. "Snitches Get Stitches" and the like. Informing to the police is a huge taboo in large swathes of metropolitan Britain, and has been since forever.
Click to expand...


A lot of people are still going to be grassed up though, the rioters pissed off far too many people to secure annaminity. Within their own cultures surrounded by fellow scum there is a element of protection but with so many being hated by the general populace that protection is very thin.
 
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