LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Merguson said:
I don't think that's solid enough.
OK?
But like I said above, the problem was more with the fact those guys just opened fire on a distant outrigger for no apparent reason. Who would do that? Why?

As kasajian put it in the discussion section of that Lostpedia article, the whole thing was just bad storytelling. As with many, many other "mysteries" on that show.
(I just love his final "that's okay, it's better than what most people could have accomplished" though! :lol )


smokeymicpot said:
Was watching Spider-man 2 today. I thought I seen Jin for a second but I am not really sure.
He was in it as "Raymond" (?), apparently, yeah.
 
brandonh83 said:
I e-mailed the director of the video and he just told me that he wanted to make an amusing video about a guy in a polar bear suit playing a song on an accordion, that the type of instrument it was and where it came from and how many people owned it before the player is inconsequential in the grand scheme. He wanted it to be about the player, not the questions concerning the accordion. He said he guessed that people would be more concerned about the smaller things that don't really add up to much but that he was personally satisfied with the way it ended.

I just don't know why the guy was downtown weaing a bear suit and playing an accordion though, I think it's just too silly for me in the long run. I'd prefer it more, I think, if it were just a guy without a costume piddlin' on a guitar. Not really big on creativity.

:lol :lol

What's his email address? If enough of us tell him what a disgraceful hack he is and how he wasted 3mins of our lives I'm sure he will put out an epilogue explaining everything they were too lazy/retarded to answer in the video proper.
 
Erigu said:
OK?
But like I said above, the problem was more with the fact those guys just opened fire on a distant outrigger for no apparent reason. Who would do that? Why?

As kasajian put it in the discussion section of that Lostpedia article, the whole thing was just bad storytelling. As with many, many other "mysteries" on that show.
(I just love his final "that's okay, it's better than what most people could have accomplished" though! :lol )



He was in it as "Raymond" (?), apparently, yeah.

If Damon and Carlton knew who was in the outrigger and why, and several other LOST actors have mentioned it was in the script, clearly it wasn't important enough to explain. Both outriggers are too far away for either to recognize the others anyways. Knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose.

Personally I would have left the "second" outrigger out but hey, we can't always have what we want with a tv show.
 
what is good storytelling? my understanding of storytelling based on the craft of screenwriting:

1) never be boring
.
.
.
.
.
.
2) the story must to have a beginning, middle, and end
3) every scene must have a beginning, middle and end
4) apply tension to every scene
5) relate to the human condition, i.e. even if its a story about two rocks, make it about something a human can relate to.
6) establish a protagonist and antagonist
7) the protagonist must change
8) lie
9) use subtext, i.e. every piece of dialogue should do (at least) two things: move story & reveal character
10) make characters archetypes but not stereotypes
11) establish a goal and motivation for each character
12) make obstacles to reaching those goals

those are basically the 12 commandments of storytelling as I currently understand things.

(the 13th commandment is more of a suggestion: integrate sound and images into the storytelling - in order to take advantage of the nature of the medium, i.e. film.)

Everything else beyond that is flexible, dependent on the nature of the story itself. For instance the structure/placement of the climaxes. Should the climax occur at the very end, or in the middle? Should there be several climaxes that increase in impact? There's no right answer for all stories.

Should the story be told in chronological order? Again, depends on the story.

How does LOST not fulfill any of these items?

I think what most people complain about is plot holes or gaps, rather than the merits of its storytelling. But, the eight commandment (as I've numbered them) is to lie... and everyone knows that no matter how good you are, every lie is ultimately unraveled and exposed. It's not the endeavor of storytellers to create perfect, seamless, leakproof entity, it is rather to capture an audience's attention and hold it for as long as possible; to have them suspend disbelief and listen to your words, and yours alone, for hours on end.

I think attempting to make something so perfect would prevent someone from creating something as expansive as LOST and would rather result in something smaller and more sterile; something clinical rather than something emotive.

Making a story is like building a castle from wooden blocks: easy to topple (and fun for a moment), but a sight to admire.. and, at best, inspire. A good story restrains our impulse to destroy it.
 
Merguson said:
If Damon and Carlton knew who was in the outrigger and why, and several other LOST actors have mentioned it was in the script
Heh. BS.

clearly it wasn't important enough to explain.
If it wasn't important, they shouldn't have included it in the show in the first place.
The point is, it's bad storytelling. When you see a scene like that, you expect a pay-off sometime down the road. Basic storytelling.

Knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose.
Outside of having the scene make some kind of sense?
I dunno, maybe you're OK with plots where random anonymous guys show up, start shooting at the main characters for no apparent reason and are never mentioned again, but that kind of stuff is generally considered terrible writing.
 
Erigu said:
Heh. BS.


If it wasn't important, they shouldn't have included it in the show the first place.
The point is, it's bad storytelling. When you see a scene like that, you expect a pay-off sometime down the road. Basic storytelling.


Outside of having the scene make some kind of sense?
I dunno, maybe you're OK with plots where random anonymous guys show up, start shooting at the main characters for no apparent reason and are never mentioned again, but that kind of stuff is generally considered terrible writing.

Oh mighty Erigu who knows more than the writers and the actors, tell us more, cut through their lies even though they have no reason to lie.

Nice of you to assume I'm okay with plots where random anonymous guys show up even though I mentioned that I would have gotten rid of the second outrigger.

Reading comprehension. Work on it.
 
brandonh83 said:
Erigu I know I give you shit but really you're my favorite kind of hater, in that you don't get on my nerves. Not all the time. Namaste.
lol, pretty much. he's settled into a comfortable little groove nowadays. serves a purpose, i guess.
 
Merguson said:
Oh mighty Erigu who knows more than the writers and the actors, tell us more, cut through their lies even though they have no reason to lie.
First off, I hadn't heard anything about the actors claiming the identity of those guys in the other outrigger was specified in the script. Do you have a source?
And then, sure, they'd have a reason to lie: they work on the show.

Nice of you to assume I'm okay with plots where random anonymous guys show up even though I mentioned that I would have gotten rid of the second outrigger.
Well, you also said "clearly it wasn't important enough to explain" and "knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose", and that doesn't make it sound like you're all that bothered...
 
Erigu said:
First off, I hadn't heard anything about the actors claiming the identity of those guys in the other outrigger was specified in the script. Do you have a source?
And then, sure, they'd have a reason to lie: they work on the show.


Well, you also said "clearly it wasn't important enough to explain" and "knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose", and that doesn't make it sound like you're all that bothered...

It's in the last page in which you made several posts. Of course I'm set to 100 posts per page. This thread has 148 pages for me. I'm sure you can figure it out. Of course the actor(s) themselves aren't 100% certain but it's all we have to go on. I'll take their word over yours though.

"Clearly it wasn't important enough to explain and "Knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose" doesn't give you the hint that I clearly don't think the answer would be significant and then therefore, if I had my own way, would remove the second outrigger?
 
Time/Dimensional-travel "Warp into a random perilous situation briefly before warping out" is nothing new to the genre. The writers tried to do something greater with it, but they eventually thought their original plan sucked and they went in a different direction. I can understand why some people feel cheated, but I don't think it stands out as "terrible writing".

Unless you think writers need to follow through every single one of their initial plans regardless of quality.
 
Merguson said:
It's in the last page in which you made several posts.
This?
Jorge and his gf, after about 5 minutes of pondering out loud, seem to think it was MIB-Locke and Ben who were shooting at the outrigger, when they were making their way from Hydra Island to the main island back in S5. But they hardly seem sure of it, and say that they'll have to consult the script when they get back home to be sure of that.
I dunno, man...

"Clearly it wasn't important enough to explain and "Knowing who the people on the other outrigger serves no purpose" doesn't give you the hint that I clearly don't think the answer would be significant and then therefore, if I had my own way, would remove the second outrigger?
... So you weren't trying to defend the show, there?
 
Yaweee said:
The writers tried to do something greater with it, but they eventually thought their original plan sucked and they went in a different direction. I can understand why some people feel cheated, but I don't think it stands out as "terrible writing".

Unless you think writers need to follow through every single one of their initial plans regardless of quality.
So introducing mysteries and just dropping them altogether because you changed your mind is perfectly OK, now?
Shit, that makes writing a whole lot easier! :lol
 
Erigu said:
So introducing mysteries and just dropping them altogether because you changed your mind is perfectly OK, now?
Shit, that makes writing a whole lot easier! :lol

I'm not saying it is perfectly okay, but leaving a slight dangling thread or replacing it with a generic "random time-travel peril" is better than following through with something that requires too many contrivances to reach.

That is the nature of television writing. Unless the show is a single season and the writers are given the chance to write every episode before filming and editing are finished and before episodes begin to air, there are going to be course-corrections.
 
Yaweee said:
I'm not saying it is perfectly okay, but leaving a slight dangling thread or replacing it with a generic "random time-travel peril" is better than following through with something that requires too many contrivances to reach.
(and we wouldn't want contrivances on that show :lol )
I'm not sure which one is worse, frankly... But I know I'd expect better than that from a professional writer anyway.
 
Erigu said:
(and we wouldn't want contrivances on that show :lol )
I'm not sure which one is worse, frankly... But I know I'd expect better than that from a professional writer anyway.

You should just stop watching television altogether, I think. Even with all of the mistakes the makers of LOST have made, they did far more planning than nearly any other show not based on previously material. It just wasn't enough to overcome a bunch of plotholes, and they were too inclined to change things and further develop good characters (read: Ben, Desmond) that originally weren't supposed to be as important as they ended up to be.

Hell, The West Wing and Breaking Bad (two of the greatest TV shows ever) are openly admitted by their writers to have done essentially no planning for future episodes at any time, except for the very end of the West Wing, which the writers completely reversed on and changed after an actor unexpectedly died.

It's the nature of writing television. Multiple writers, dozens of directors, and hundreds of actors being slowly added into the show week by week basically gives the writers no choice but to adapt and make at least some shit up as they go along. I don't think that is bad in any sense of the word, unless you're forcing a comparison of television to other media. THAT requires writing off pretty much all television.
 
Despite what people's opinions of the stuff that happened in the show, Lost has always been good storytelling, because otherwise, there wouldn't be people to complain.
 
Erigu said:
This?

I dunno, man...


... So you weren't trying to defend the show, there?

It's better than nothing I suppose.

In a way I was defending a show, mostly a response to those who think the outrigger scene had to really be answered. I thought it was simply insignificant and would serve no purpose if we knew who were the other people on that outrigger.

Hence why I wouldn't even bother wasting time on the outrigger and would have removed it. Just pointless to put it in the show if there wasn't any point to be made. (That is probably my attempt not to DEFEND Lost)
 
Yaweee said:
That is the nature of television writing. Unless the show is a single season and the writers are given the chance to write every episode before filming and editing are finished and before episodes begin to air, there are going to be course-corrections.
But they kept going on and on about how it was soooo liberating to have an end date, how they knew the answers to their mysteries when they introduced them... and yet, they couldn't manage to fit a short shootout scene? "Sorry, the whole thing with Sun forgetting how to speak English left us with no room for that particular pay-off!"?

Personally, I'm willing to bet that, as with many things on this show, they had no idea where they were going with that when they filmed that scene, and couldn't find a way to make it work out in the end. It is kinda difficult to justify such a shoot-out, after all (you can barely see them, and you just open fire anyway? okay...). A decent writer might have realized that before it was too late. But we're talking about Lindelof and Cuse, here.

Even with all of the mistakes the makers of LOST have made, they did far more planning than nearly any other show not based on previously material.
If they did, it sure didn't show.

Hell, The West Wing and Breaking Bad (two of the greatest TV shows ever) are openly admitted by their writers to have done essentially no planning for future episodes at any time
Then again, those shows don't exactly rely on a whole bunch of mysterious mysteries...
Writing a show like Lost without planning ahead is quite risky and requires a lot of care. You need writers who stop for a minute and ask themselves "will we really be able to explain that though?" before putting stuff on paper. Not the "ah, well, we'll think of something! ... or not! who cares, as long as it hooks the viewers! :lol " kind Lost got.


Willy105 said:
Despite what people's opinions of the stuff that happened in the show, Lost has always been good storytelling, because otherwise, there wouldn't be people to complain.
:lol
 
Merguson said:
I'm curious as to what science fiction show (packed with mysteries) Erigu would recommend over Lost.
There's a catch with that "packed with mysteries" part, as decent writers would try and come up with both mysteries and satisfying pay-offs, which makes the whole exercise a lot more difficult. When you only concern yourself with the leads, obviously, there's nothing stopping you from introducing a whole bunch of them.
I mean, I see people go on about the "epic scale" of Lost, but it doesn't take any talent to introduce a whole bunch of characters and plot threads. My 6-year old cousin could do it (and I'm sure he would, if he existed at all!). It's making it work that takes actual skill. And that's why real writers are generally "humbler" than the Lost hacks.

That being said, in the "science fiction TV show with mysteries" department, I'd say you'd be far better off watching something like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex, for example...
 
Greatly disturbed by the lack of Giacchino attention on the DVD/BR sets.

September 14th isn't far away though are you oh no you're not no no no coochie coochie *tickle* that's my baby
 
Erigu said:
There's a catch with that "packed with mysteries" part, as decent writers would try and come up with both mysteries and satisfying pay-offs, which makes the whole exercise a lot more difficult. When you only concern yourself with the leads, obviously, there's nothing stopping you from introducing a whole bunch of them.
I mean, I see people go on about the "epic scale" of Lost, but it doesn't take any talent to introduce a whole bunch of characters and plot threads. My 6-year old cousin could do it (and I'm sure he would, if he existed at all!). It's making it work that takes actual skill. And that's why real writers are generally "humbler" than the Lost hacks.

That being said, in the "science fiction TV show with mysteries" department, I'd say you'd be far better off watching something like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex, for example...

I detect a bit of jealousy in your post.

EDIT: Yeah, definitely, otherwise there isn't any explanation for your constant negative bashing of Lost.

You don't like the show? Move on. I'm sure you didn't register on NeoGAF here because you saw this thread and decided to post here.

To be honest, the only real mysteries I would say have been unanswered are.. Walt, Outrigger Chase, Ajira Massacre, the Cabin, the Lighthouse and Mother. Anything else after that point, is just nitpicking.
 
Merguson said:
I detect a bit of jealousy in your post.
Well, I hope you still have the bill for that jealousy detector of yours...

otherwise there isn't any explanation for your constant negative bashing of Lost.
Yeah, it couldn't be because I think that the "all those plot holes are just par for the course!" defense is fucking depressing, as well as insulting for the writers out there who actually do a decent job. Or because I happen to like science fiction, lament the wasteland that is US television when it comes to that "genre", and would rather not have to suffer through years of Lost copycats.
Funny how some of you would come up with the silliest justifications, when it comes to the plot of this mess of a show, but here, nope, you're just drawing a blank! :lol
(either that, or you argue that negative criticism means it's good :lol )

I'm sure you didn't register on NeoGAF here because you saw this thread and decided to post here.
You got that right.
 
Erigu said:
That being said, in the "science fiction TV show with mysteries" department, I'd say you'd be far better off watching something like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex, for example...

And even with that recommendation, there's essentially a 10x difference in how long the shows are. Ghost had the benefit of a much shorter story able to be fully written before the first episode even aired.
 
Yaweee said:
And even with that recommendation, there's essentially a 10x difference in how long the shows are.
So what?

Ghost had the benefit of a much shorter story able to be fully written before the first episode even aired.
I don't know if they had the whole thing planned out in the first place or improvised along the way, but the fact is, it's better written. I was just answering Merguson's question, there.
Is it more difficult to write a looooong mystery? Sure. Does it somehow mean you don't fail when you fail though? Nope. Nobody was stopping the Lost guys from making a mini-series.
 
Erigu said:
Well, I hope you still have the bill for that jealousy detector of yours...


Yeah, it couldn't be because I think that the "all those plot holes are just par for the course!" defense is fucking depressing, as well as insulting for the writers out there who actually do a decent job. Or because I happen to like science fiction, lament the wasteland that is US television when it comes to that "genre", and would rather not have to suffer through years of Lost copycats.
Funny how some of you would come up with the silliest justifications, when it comes to the plot of this mess of a show, but here, nope, you're just drawing a blank! :lol
(either that, or you argue that negative criticism means it's good :lol )


You got that right.

Are you some sort of a representative for some secret society of writers? Would you mind telling me which writers have been insulted.

I'm literally laughing my ass off. :lol It's even funnier when you deny your jealously.

Ah well.

Nobody was stopping the Lost guys from making a mini-series.

I'm sure you've heard of a studio called ABC.
 
Merguson said:
Are you some sort of a representative for some secret society of writers?
Just a guy who enjoys well-crafted stories and has a lot of respect for their writers.

It's even funnier when you deny your jealously.
Don't forget that I'm also a joke account only meant to troll you guys. Get your conspiracy right.
 
Erigu said:
Just a guy who enjoys well-crafted stories and has a lot of respect for their writers.


Don't forget that I'm also a joke account only meant to troll you guys. Get your conspiracy right.

Even funnier when you assume everyone thinks the same way. Oh boy.
 
Merguson said:
I'm sure you've heard of a studio called ABC.
I also heard of something called "free will". Surely, they knew it wasn't a mini-series when they signed, yes?


faceless007 said:
As a matter of fact, that's exactly what happened. They assumed it would only last 12 episodes and shat their pants when they had to make more.
It wasn't meant to be a mini-series. They just didn't know if the show would survive.
 
Erigu said:
So what?


I don't know if they had the whole thing planned out in the first place or improvised along the way, but the fact is, it's better written. I was just answering Merguson's question, there.
Is it more difficult to write a looooong mystery? Sure. Does it somehow mean you don't fail when you fail though? Nope. Nobody was stopping the Lost guys from making a mini-series.

Yes, it is better written, in the same way that short stories are often better written than novels. When you have one-tenth of the total material to produce, it is much easier to keep a consistently higher quality.
 
Yaweee said:
Yes, it is better written, in the same way that short stories are often better written than novels. When you have one-tenth of the total material to produce, it is much easier to keep a consistently higher quality.

I just think people too often undermine how difficult writing something like Lost actually is. It's easy to shit on something but writing or creating anything like this must be a heavily daunting task and I'm pretty sure they're extremely proud of themselves for getting it through to the end. I'm not saying that's an excuse for flaws. It's not. Lost certainly has a few of them. However, I don't think it has a lot of them and I tend to focus on what they did right-- which for me was a great deal.
 
Behold

The Season 6 soundtrack listings:

s6ost1.png


s6ost2.png
 
brandonh83 said:
I just think people too often undermine how difficult writing something like Lost actually is. It's easy to shit on something but writing or creating anything like this must be a heavily daunting task and I'm pretty sure they're extremely proud of themselves for getting it through to the end. I'm not saying that's an excuse for flaws. It's not. Lost certainly has a few of them. However, I don't think it has a lot of them and I tend to focus on what they did right-- which for me was a great deal.

I'm the same way. There's never been anything truly comparable to LOST, and it is every bit the mess I'd expect something with 20 writers, 20 directors, and hundreds of actors written, filmed, and edited over a 6 year period to be. I still enjoyed the hell out of it and would love to see something similar in the future, problems and all.
 
Yaweee said:
Yes, it is better written, in the same way that short stories are often better written than novels. When you have one-tenth of the total material to produce, it is much easier to keep a consistently higher quality.
So you're on this plaza, and there's a bunch of street jugglers. They're pretty good and do some great tricks, but not too many people pay attention. It's a bit sad, but then again, it's the usual deal.

But there comes this guy in flashy clothes, and he goes "WHO WANTS TO SEE SOME AWESOME JUGGLING?! 46 BALLS AT ONCE!!"
Wait, what's that? People gather.
As some bombastic music out of the Lord of the Rings soundtrack plays, the guy throws a whole box of balls in the air... and catches two. He keeps his unfaltering smile as he clumsily juggles them.

People applaud. You can hear "BEST. JUGGLER. EVER!" from the crowd. Not ironically, no. They're in awe.

"What the fuck is wrong with you, people? Have you see the other jugglers? This guy is shit! He can barely juggle a couple of balls!
- Hey, let's be fair: that was a whole lot of balls."
 
Erigu said:
It wasn't meant to be a mini-series. They just didn't know if the show would survive.
They assumed it wouldn't, in fact. What you are you even arguing anyway? That they could have ended the show earlier? Wrong, they had contracts and ABC wanted to milk it. That they should have known it would be successful and not signed on for the series out of some sense of humility (even though they loved the pilot and wanted to make it)? Right. Pass up a few months making a script that really excites you because of the incredibly remote possibility it'll get picked up for 6 seasons. Gee, who didn't see that coming?
 
Erigu said:
So you're on this plaza, and there's a bunch of street jugglers. They're pretty good and do some great tricks, but not too many people pay attention. It's a bit sad, but then again, it's the usual deal.

But there comes this guy in flashy clothes, and he goes "WHO WANTS TO SEE SOME AWESOME JUGGLING?! 46 BALLS AT ONCE!!"
Wait, what's that? People gather.
As some bombastic music out of the Lord of the Rings soundtrack plays, the guy throws a whole box of balls in the air... and catches two. He keeps his unfaltering smile as he clumsily juggles them.

People applaud. You can hear "BEST. JUGGLER. EVER!" from the crowd. Not ironically, no. They're in awe.

"What the fuck is wrong with you, people? Have you see the other jugglers? This guy is shit! He can barely juggle a couple of balls!
- Hey, let's be fair: that was a whole lot of balls."

You're missing the point. There's a separate appeal in novel-length stories that you don't find in short stories. Same thing with short shows and long ones. Yes, some of the fundamentals are the same, but the sense of satisfaction from each is most certainly not.
 
oh my gowds soundtrack list thank you!!!

edit: um that looks incredibly incomplete, going by the titles it only looks like it's up to the end of The Candidate. WTF. the BONUS tracks look like tracks from The End, but still, WTF. if there's no Jack vs. MIB or opening scene of The End or Jack and Hurley's last scene or Jack and Kate's kiss DADDY GONNA BE PISSED
 
faceless007 said:
They assumed it wouldn't, in fact. What you are you even arguing anyway? That they could have ended the show earlier?
That they knew it wasn't a mini-series, that they knew that if the show proved successful, it would be picked up.
They didn't consider that possibility, really?


Yaweee said:
You're missing the point.
And I think you're missing mine, so we have a problem, here. :lol

There's a separate appeal in novel-length stories that you don't find in short stories.
Yeeeah, but I'm not sure why you're suddenly talking about the respective appeals of each format, here...
You were saying that it's harder to write long consistent stories than short ones. I'd agree. But those guys knew what they were getting into (or they should have known, anyway... "they expected the show to fail", seriously? whether that's just another silly excuse or the truth, it's too dumb for words), and it's not like there aren't any precedents for stories both long and well-crafted.
"Ah, but cut them some slack: there were so many mysteries!"
Yeah, and the juggler sure threw a lot of balls in the air.
 
brandonh83 said:
oh my gowds soundtrack list thank you!!!

edit: um that looks incredibly incomplete, going by the titles it only looks like it's up to the end of The Candidate. WTF. the BONUS tracks look like tracks from The End, but still, WTF. if there's no Jack vs. MIB or opening scene of The End or Jack and Hurley's last scene or Jack and Kate's kiss DADDY GONNA BE PISSED

Hmm...I wonder if the reason they're able to churn this soundtrack out so quickly (compared to 4 and 5, where it took a year after their seasons had ended) is because they're splitting the S6 soundtrack?

Across the Sea and The End by themselves had like a dozen new themes, makes me think those might be held for a Season 6 Soundtrack part 2.
 
Blader5489 said:
Season 6 Soundtrack part 2.

My flaccid dick, if they can do 2-discs they can do 3. fuck em. it should have said part 1 or vol. 1 even or something if they're planning on doing that. I mean how would they do that? release a LOST: The Final Season Extended Recordings but the only new material being the music that they deliberately left out? :lol

I mean it would be one thing if they at least had a FEW tracks from Across the Sea/What They Died For/The End, but it LITERALLY cuts the fuck off at the end of The Candidate, aside from the two bonus tracks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom