-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
LOST |OT|
- Thread starter BenjaminBirdie
- Start date
- Status
evil solrac v3.0
Member
erigu is David Fury.
dead souls
Member
Willy105 said:
Delusion? Hardly.
I await your list of shows that received nearly universal acclaim from television critics and were consistently as bad as Lost was.
I seriously can't think of a single show that fits that criteria and I watch a lot of TV.
dead souls said:
You act as such a thing exists.
That's just it, the only thing supporting it would be my opinion. Anyone can say Casablanca sucks, that Gone With The Wind was garbage, that [insert acclaimed work here] is overrated and sucks. But you would look ridiculous doing it.
Unless you'd love to hear me tell of the horrors that is Modern Family, I would say that it is the delusion of taste.
Neither can I, especially not Lost of all things.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
The thing I don't get it, what is the debate? Everytime this thread is bumped, the people that don't like Lost keep trying to impress their opinion on everyone else, in the Lost thread. We're long past the days of Lost fans going into other TV topics and impressing their enjoyment of the shows on others, recommending it to others and touting fun memes and inside jokes. It's over. No one really does this any more, the pro-show people were satisfied and have moved on to other things. And yet, the negative opinions still come here like clockwork, to "remind" the diehards who are the only fans who even care to check into this thread at this point. I could understand regularly dispatching your hatred for something if you had to live with it everyday, or even regularly, but Lost is over, in every way possible. No more show, no more threads, it's just not there anymore. What's the point? To serve as some sort of counter balance (even though there is no point to that, as, like I said, the only people who come in here any more really liked the show and nothing is going to change their mind about that)? Boredom? Permanent bitterness? Or is somebody going to eventually openly admit they just plain like getting in the way of actually progressive, enjoyable discussion? I just don't get it, and since this thread has long since past actually being about Lost and is more about the people who post about it, I'm just curious as to why there's any sort of persistence, a year later, about the matter. It's over, there's no winning or losing, it just is.
After having recently gone through the BSG re-imagining for the first time, and enjoying it hugely, I've concluded that the amount and style of complaints leveled at Lost by fans of BSG is fucking hilarious. Not only is there plenty wrong with BSG, but many of its issues mirror Lost's.
Questionable character development, meandering plot points, general heavy-handedness, laughably overt symbolism (it isn't enough to have Gaius Baltar at one point sporting Jesus' physical characteristics, he has to literally make the cross shape), and some very obvious signs that they didn't have a lot of it planned out. One of the biggest criticisms directed at Lost is that it made much of it up as it went along, but that's pretty clearly the case with BSG as well for the most part. I don't personally consider it a criticism, since it's the reality of serialized television, but Lost gets shit on for that constantly even though other shows do it.
Don't get me wrong, I loved BSG. Hell, I went through all four seasons in maybe a week and a half. I was hooked. But I couldn't help but be amazed at how many times I've seen BSG fans slagging off Lost, only to find out that both shows share many of the same problems.
Questionable character development, meandering plot points, general heavy-handedness, laughably overt symbolism (it isn't enough to have Gaius Baltar at one point sporting Jesus' physical characteristics, he has to literally make the cross shape), and some very obvious signs that they didn't have a lot of it planned out. One of the biggest criticisms directed at Lost is that it made much of it up as it went along, but that's pretty clearly the case with BSG as well for the most part. I don't personally consider it a criticism, since it's the reality of serialized television, but Lost gets shit on for that constantly even though other shows do it.
Don't get me wrong, I loved BSG. Hell, I went through all four seasons in maybe a week and a half. I was hooked. But I couldn't help but be amazed at how many times I've seen BSG fans slagging off Lost, only to find out that both shows share many of the same problems.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Damn man, I agree with every word you said. I just finished BSG a couple months ago and was left scratching my head regarding the same thing. I absolutely loved BSG, flaws and all, but what the heck was up with all those constant insults hurled toward LOST, when BSG handled much of their themes/characters/plot in a very similar fashion.Zeliard said:
Honestly, this just seems like blatant hypocrisy among some hardcore LOST-hating BSG apologists. Before I actually watched the show, people like Spotless and Storyteller had me really looking forward to checking it out. I took their criticisms of LOST more seriously since their tastes tend to match my own a lot of the time. Hell, I even agreed with most of their criticisms concerning LOST. But now that I've seen all of BSG for myself, I'm seriously baffled, guys. I look back, and all that "insightful" LOST bashing over the years just comes off as some kind of silly fanboy agenda.
LOST and Battlestar really are kindred projects, I very much see that now. The aggressive infighting that sprang from these two fantastic programs being pitted against each other is kinda lame and disappointing.
It's funny that reading this has made me instantly want to watch Battlestar Galactica. There were flaws in Lost, but there was just so much good that I can't help but love it. I find it a shame that it's legacy was tarnished by Season 6 (which I just watched again and liked one HELL of a lot more the second time, although I'm one of those who always liked the ending) when the first five really were incredible television. There may have been lows, but the highs soared far above ninety-nine percent of anything else I've ever watched. So many fantastic moments.Catalix said:
ErasureAcer
Banned
TheExodu5 said:
It's the same for me with BSG. I don't hate the show, I just hate Season 4.
LOST I still think is/was the best show on TV.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
I agree to a certain extent. BSG S4 was hella clumsy, and downright goofy with the plot and exposition. But I think the characters were mostly served well. I felt the relationships were explored to the fullest and they had some awesome conflicts and resolutions along the way, in spite of the needlessly convoluted mythology.TheExodu5 said:
It's slightly different with Lost S6. I wish the characters were given something much more meaningful to do over the course of the season. They were slaves to the season's incredibly limp plot and mythology most of the time. The individual scenes and character interactions felt hollow to me. Also, the dialogue was... lacking, to say the least lol.
For the first time? If so, yeah, definitely give BGS a shot. It's ambitious sci-fi genre fiction with a focus on characters, sprinkled with thematic elements of spirituality. Sound familiar?Parts said:
BGS arguably topples under its own weight toward the end, but damn, it sure has a lot going for it. Just like LOST.
Future PhaZe
Member
Salmonax said:
I really hate the idea that a good show can be invalidated by 1 or 2 bad seasons though.
Its like yea over 100 hours worth of the entertainment was some of the best stuff I ever watched but the last 16 episodes? fuck dat shit...
kind of blows my mind..
Catalix said:
I don't know if some of them were served all that well, though. The revelation of
Ellen Tigh as the all-important Fifth Cylon
Final Five
Saul killed Ellen, which was previously a huge and amazing piece of character development for Saul. Then it's like, well Ellen is back, and that whole thing with Saul murdering her is apparently going to be forgotten about.
Then you have
Saul Tigh's relationship with Caprica Six, complete with questionable miscarriage. Baltar's cult and Sons of Ares? Was that supposed to be going anywhere? That whole cult storyline with Baltar is one of the worst parts of the show. Tory Foster is one of the Five Cylons? Who even remotely cares about that character? Billy would have been a significantly more interesting Cylon. Chief finds out his son isn't actually his and, after one scene between he and Hot Dog, that's all done with. Another storyline given short shrift.
Other stuff was pretty perfect. Everything with Adama and Roslin was magical throughout. I had issues with some of Gaius Baltar's other S4 stuff, but his final scene -
"I know about farming"
simply shooting himself in the head the instant he realized he had both lost the war and lost the possibility for resurrection tech
anger at having been programmed into such a body and wanting instead to experience supernovas
BSG has some issues, but overall, it was one hell of a ride. There are no shortage of lows, but the highs are much higher than the lows are low. I'd describe Lost in the same way.
/BSG!
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Battlestar Galactica:Zeliard said:
Yeah, that's why I said mostly
There's definitely a few embarrassing character detours in the mix. The ones you mentioned are spot-on. And some choices the writers made undercut the significant development that certain characters underwent in previous seasons. But in spite of that, I think they recovered well enough on the whole. I'm just mainly talking about the character relationships and resolutions here. Adama, Roslin, and the rest were handled admirably.
And I thought the core of Starbuck's story was surprisingly poignant.
The mythology on the other hand was the bigger detriment. That's largely what started to negatively impact character consistency.
The final 5, Ellen Tigh, The great "Cylon Plan", Saul and Six's baby (seriously? lol) etc. etc.
Anyway...
Jacob's an incompetent douche, amirite?
BuggyDClown
Member
Stridone said:Holy shit, Erigu still posts here... What an empty, pathetic life he must lead.
Erigu can not be destroyed until the stone is removed form the light of the island. Even then we only have a momentary window of opportunity before all would be LOST.
Spotless Mind
Member
I agree with all those criticisms you have. The difference was that the BSG threads were full of people, myself included, slagging those very developments, despite our love for the show overall - a show that didn't rely solely on its mythology elements with *nothing* else to latch onto. Lost threads, on the other hand, had people crying bloody murder if you dared to criticize THE BEST SHOW OF ALL TIME. Nobody, of course, could possibly question the consistently dreadful dialogue, characterization and plotting. Labeling those very people as pathetic trolls for questioning the brilliance of their gods Damon and Carlton.Zeliard said:
Erigu still fighting the good fight, I see <3
Re: Battlestar Galactica
I agree that it shares a few fundamental problems with Lost, most obviously the lack of a clear direction and a rather steep quality drop toward the end.
I'd recommend Lost through season 4 (stop after The Constant) and I'd recommend BSG through season 3 (stop after that boxing episode that I LOVE but everyone else hates).
Re: Battlestar Galactica
I agree that it shares a few fundamental problems with Lost, most obviously the lack of a clear direction and a rather steep quality drop toward the end.
I'd recommend Lost through season 4 (stop after The Constant) and I'd recommend BSG through season 3 (stop after that boxing episode that I LOVE but everyone else hates).
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Except for the gigantic drop in quality, yeah.Willy105 said:
Also: Many laughs at Lindelof having a Twitter fight with an author who doesn't even have a Twitter account because he said he doesn't want a 'pull a LOST' with the end of his book series.
https://twitter.com/DamonLindelof
dave is ok said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this subjective?
I enjoyed the entire series, and didn't really feel like there was a drop in quality. So clearly it's only opinion
I wouldn't tell someone to "stop" somewhere, unless said person WAS me. I mean, let them enjoy it for what it is, or hate it.dave is ok
aztek is ok
To believe that The Constant is the last great episode and it's all down hill from there? It's subjective, yes.MrPliskin said:
But anyone who thinks seasons five or six are "good" in the same way that the first season or the second half of the third season are crazy people. That much is not subjective.
Angry Fork
Member
WARNING: SPOILERS
I feel bad that Lindelof is getting so much heat still. I don't think the finale was disappointing, that's too strong of a word, but it relied too much on the religious stuff imo. Lost ALWAYS had a spiritual side, and I totally get that, I understood that Jack was science and Jack was going to end up wrong because Locke's spiritual stuff and the island was more important and correct etc. i was on board with that it was still entertaining and I didn't mind.
But then season 6 introduced too much of the god/bible stuff imo. It chalked up a lot of mysteries to god-related or "it's just fate", but a substantial amount of people wanted reasonable explanations, that's why many were disappointed. I liked Season 6 up until the light explanation. It does make sense, but it just seemed way too dumb/simple for Lost so people were like huh? That's it?, and that feeling stayed on throughout the rest of the season. That episode really was the turning point for a lot of fans and even if the next few episodes were amazing, they still would've bitched about the light saving stuff.
A lot of the problem with 6 as well is they introduced some cool stuff (the asian guy and the pyramid temple thing, the lighthouse thing with the numbers etc.) and didn't explain it or they got rid of those things quickly. People feel like a lot of season 6 is pointless because the side flashes were cannon fodder or something, like it was just there to fill up time. In retrospect I don't believe that, it does make sense with what they were trying to do, but I could see why people feel like season 6 was a waste of time. They stretched WAAAY too much stuff, they should've answered more per-episode. The light stuff should've been like in the middle of the season or early on somehow, so that the rest of the season could end on a high note. They also should've had more answered (walt related) or something, in the middle of season 6.
However, I don't understand people who say "nothing was explained" though. If you watch the last 3 seasons one after another, pretty much all of the things that matter WERE explained. The only thing I can think of that wasn't is what made Walt special, that's about it. And Walt was not that big of a mystery that people need to bring down the entire show just because they didn't answer that.
Then there's people bitching about stupid stuff like "who built the statue" or the bird that flew down and called Hurley's name. Come on now. We were never going to get answers to stuff like this, they were just cool little odd tidbits that got you wondering. If we got answers to them that would be nice, but people were really expecting every single thing to be answered and that's way too much in a show like Lost.
I'm honestly wondering what big, important things weren't answered? I can't recall any right now, and whoever hated season 6 or whatever i'd like to know what they didn't answer. They answered the whispers, the smoke monster, why they crashed/what the survivors were for, who's jacob, the christian body stuff, the ash surrounding the cabin, the incident etc. they even showed shannon's inhaler. The only thing I can't remember if they answered or not is why the numbers are important or how the numbers were created etc. which does kind of suck (if they didn't answer it, I can't remember), but it's not THAT big of a deal in the broad stroke of things.
I feel bad that Lindelof is getting so much heat still. I don't think the finale was disappointing, that's too strong of a word, but it relied too much on the religious stuff imo. Lost ALWAYS had a spiritual side, and I totally get that, I understood that Jack was science and Jack was going to end up wrong because Locke's spiritual stuff and the island was more important and correct etc. i was on board with that it was still entertaining and I didn't mind.
But then season 6 introduced too much of the god/bible stuff imo. It chalked up a lot of mysteries to god-related or "it's just fate", but a substantial amount of people wanted reasonable explanations, that's why many were disappointed. I liked Season 6 up until the light explanation. It does make sense, but it just seemed way too dumb/simple for Lost so people were like huh? That's it?, and that feeling stayed on throughout the rest of the season. That episode really was the turning point for a lot of fans and even if the next few episodes were amazing, they still would've bitched about the light saving stuff.
A lot of the problem with 6 as well is they introduced some cool stuff (the asian guy and the pyramid temple thing, the lighthouse thing with the numbers etc.) and didn't explain it or they got rid of those things quickly. People feel like a lot of season 6 is pointless because the side flashes were cannon fodder or something, like it was just there to fill up time. In retrospect I don't believe that, it does make sense with what they were trying to do, but I could see why people feel like season 6 was a waste of time. They stretched WAAAY too much stuff, they should've answered more per-episode. The light stuff should've been like in the middle of the season or early on somehow, so that the rest of the season could end on a high note. They also should've had more answered (walt related) or something, in the middle of season 6.
However, I don't understand people who say "nothing was explained" though. If you watch the last 3 seasons one after another, pretty much all of the things that matter WERE explained. The only thing I can think of that wasn't is what made Walt special, that's about it. And Walt was not that big of a mystery that people need to bring down the entire show just because they didn't answer that.
Then there's people bitching about stupid stuff like "who built the statue" or the bird that flew down and called Hurley's name. Come on now. We were never going to get answers to stuff like this, they were just cool little odd tidbits that got you wondering. If we got answers to them that would be nice, but people were really expecting every single thing to be answered and that's way too much in a show like Lost.
I'm honestly wondering what big, important things weren't answered? I can't recall any right now, and whoever hated season 6 or whatever i'd like to know what they didn't answer. They answered the whispers, the smoke monster, why they crashed/what the survivors were for, who's jacob, the christian body stuff, the ash surrounding the cabin, the incident etc. they even showed shannon's inhaler. The only thing I can't remember if they answered or not is why the numbers are important or how the numbers were created etc. which does kind of suck (if they didn't answer it, I can't remember), but it's not THAT big of a deal in the broad stroke of things.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Yea, this may have happened when it came to junior members posting in the threads, but I think all of the veteran members tried to provide a reasonable discussion and even some of that time their discussions were outright dismissed by people who just flat didn't like the show but were continuing to watch anyways.
But, you can keep believing all that, it doesn't make you see like a huge asshole who's full of shit at all.
dave is ok said:
Not at all.
The second half of the third season is king amongst all seasons, but Season 5 and 6 can easily be considered better than Season 1 in many ways. The story is now in full motion, the characters are fully developed, less filler episodes, all the music has matured and expanded to many different themes, all the useless minor characters have been rid off, and there is more stuff to be excited for and to see it's conclusion.
The only thing I would say would be that Season 1 has better photography, better special effects, and it has some nostalgic value (which not for me, since Season 2 is more nostalgic for me, even though I don't consider it better than Season 1).
Kind of funny that he is taking offense at "pulling a LOST", when him and Carlton always joked about "not getting Twin Peaked" or "pulling a Midichlorians".
And, yes, BSG is still worth watching in its entirey, just as I think LOST, Evangelion, The Dark Tower, and The Stand are worth experiencing, despite their endings.
LOST isn't the first popular serial to have a widely disappointing ending, nor will it be the last.
And, yes, BSG is still worth watching in its entirey, just as I think LOST, Evangelion, The Dark Tower, and The Stand are worth experiencing, despite their endings.
LOST isn't the first popular serial to have a widely disappointing ending, nor will it be the last.
Unless the definition of "irony" completely changed and nobody told me, I don't think so, no.MrPliskin said:
Just so you'd talk a bit about the show, for a change: what would you say about this interview bit, for example? Give it a try, at least...
Hahaha!dave is ok said:
Let Lost become a cautionary tale for future writers. It might well be your best chance at achieving immortality, dude. Don't fight it.
Incidentally, the tweet answers an old question of mine: is "LOST... in ALL CAPS" just a fan thing, or is the ridiculous self-aggrandizement canonical? Now, I know.
But "all questions lead to more questions": why?
...
Ludicrously Overrated Shitty Television?
Well, Sturgeon's law and all that... Some do. And others still fare a lot better than Lost.EliCash said:
Jack wasn't science, he was stupidity. He was going to end up wrong because the island stuff was obviously there and happening, even if he somehow managed to shrug it off for entire seasons.Angry Fork said:
Apparently, for the writers, a "man of science" is a Scully.
[Even then... Scully was in a (mostly) episodic show, so I find it somewhat easier to cut her some slack: "the poor thing is going to be wrong for the nth time, but hey, that's just the formula... there's a "reset" button out there that keeps getting pushed in-between episodes, so how could she ever learn?"]
Even three years after the crash, the Man in Black still wasn't in a hurry to leave the island, apparently...
"Let's recruit! For some reason!" Hours of thrilling group-forming action!
And I liked how he saved Sawyer from that fall, on the cliff, too. D'oh! Ah well, you'll get another chance, Blackie...
Yeah. No.
I liked this summary.
But who made the show that way? Who put all those things there in the first place?
"So many loose threads, it would be impossible to tie them up! Poor Lindelof/Cuse! Can't you see you're being unreasonable, and they're just victims, here?"
Nope, sorry?
They're responsible for the shit they put on their show, simple as that.
When you introduce a "cool new mystery" like the statue and all the other Egypt-related stuff, you can't fault the viewers for assuming that there will be a payoff, that it will be tied together at some point.
And when you introduce something as silly as the Hurley bird, you're an idiot.
Yeah, sick burn!threenote said:
Angry Fork
Member
You're way too cynical dude. The first 3 seasons were obviously made up one after another, so it's not like they can magically think up something to connect all the loose shit together. They had no clue at the time that they would end at the 6th season, they didn't know if they would go 9 seasons, whatever it may be. It's simply too much to blame lindelcuse for shit they introduced in earlier seasons since they had no clue when they would end. While season 4-6 were likely built to uniform together and thought out, could they have changed things a bit so we could get more answers? Sure, but like I said, we still got all the important answers.Erigu said:
I don't understand how you can bitch about the statue/egypt stuff when we got all the answers to the story stuff that matters. All the mythology answers would've been very cool, this is something that I definitely wish we got, and that's why the finale/season 6 was a bit disappointing to me, I admit that, but to act like the entire show is shit, or that season 6 was terrible JUST because of stuff like that, is really cynical and not getting the whole point. There's lots of great stuff that came out of season 6 and we got lots of interesting answers/episodes (most notably the Richard episode, which basically explains the entire show even without knowing about the light stuff).
It's obvious that Lindelcuse changed the point of the show from mythology-based to character based (and they kept talking about character this character that) in season 6, because they knew people would rage about mythology stuff and they were just pre-damage controlling. I know this is the case but I still don't hold it against them because season 6 was still satisfying in many ways and we got lots of answers to important stuff. Did we get everything? No, but we shouldn't tear down the entire show over random tidbits, period. Lots of stuff they introduced were in the earlier seasons where they had no clue where they would end up.
You can be pessimistic and blame them and troll people if you want but most logical people aren't that negative. They know when there's bright spots and weak spots. There were more weak spots in season 6 than the others but there's some good shit in there too and the finale wasn't a total disaster like people claim. It just didn't cater to the mythology crowd (me being one of them), it catered to the people that care more about characters and are more religious and all that. I'm athiest so i don't really care about that stuff in reality, but I can still absolutely appreciate the kind of story they were telling with the whole purgatory stuff, the side flashes made sense in that regard and the ending was very poignant and bitter sweet. I enjoyed season 6 for the most part, even without finding out about the statue or the numbers or whatever. And the last 10 minutes or whatever it was were just amazing. Beautiful ending.
Lost was insanely special and amazing even with whatever faults you want to put on it. I'm still wondering what the major things are that they didn't answer btw. And by major I mean stuff that actually connects with the main storyline and things that matter within the context of the survivors and all that. The numbers and Walt are certainly important, but they're expendable, we don't absolutely need to know about them in order to make sense of things. And we certainly don't need to know who built the damn statue, even though it would've been cool to see that obviously.
That could work - just pretend Juliette blew the island up and that was that.Pinzer said:
I think the run-up to the end of Season 5, especially Faraday's introduction of the nuke theory and subsequent death, was my least favorite part of the show. Although the temple stuff in S6 is pretty hard to watch given its complete lack of any significance to the bigger picture.
ErasureAcer
Banned
So were the lists of people The Others had people NOT on Jacob's list for candidates? That would be why they were brought to the temple for protection as the smoke monster could kill them. And also why Mr. Eko died to the smoke monster as he was someone The Others tried to drag off. If so, that was actually some pretty good writing.
You forgot one thing Season 1 has on Season 5 and 6, writing quality in general. The dialogue in Lost was never the best, but in the last two seasons they fell to awful levels. There was so much more character to the writing back then. That's something I always notice when going back to the earlier episodes. The show would have fallen like a rock if that first season wasn't so great.Willy105 said:
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Eva had one of those controversial endings that actually solidified the series' greatness for me. I felt they struck a meaningful balance, providing just the right amount of thought-provoking mythological payoffs, while also pushing each of my favorite characters to their absolute breaking point. Significant consequences were dished out in spades. When it was all over, the ample amount of lingering mysteries were fun to speculate on, because they were still interesting.Yaweee said:
Between the introspective nature of the final episodes and the apocalyptic tragedy featured in the movie, I couldn't have been more satisfied. For better or worse, it sort of became a gold standard for measuring my level of satisfaction with other convoluted mythology-heavy series finales, especially LOST.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
repeat that 100 times until it sinks in.
- Status