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[Morrigan Stark]

I don't think Dark Souls 2 would have done well if it didn't have those other games propping it up. Did Lords of the Fallen do well?

Holy shit, are you seriously comparing Dark Souls 2 to Lords of the Fallen now??

What? Are you serious? You are telling me that my point about NMW being bullshit city is irrelevant because you can backdoor Blighttown?

Yes, pretty much.

Please explain to me, via the backdoor, how you can dodge roll past 3 of the club guys, then dodge roll your way to the bottom by the water wheel, kill 2 bugs, and then run past the rockthrowers to Quelaag compares to the issues with NMW???

Because new players who stumble upon Blighttown for the first time without having been elsewhere, will not be doing that at all? Assuming they even survive the encounters with the large club guys and make it to the bottom, they won't even know where to go next, and if they do go in the direction of Quelaag's Domain, they certainly won't be able to defeat Quelaag with a +0 weapon and zero fucking purple moss.

Your whole point about NMW was that a new player who would have accidentally skipped the starting Forest would be underpowered to face NMW and that is somehow "bad design". But that's exactly what a master key trip to Blighttown would do, as well. In fact, it would be magnitudes worse than stumbling onto NMW, because NMW at least has an easier boss and no poison swamp.

Is not about dual welding, is about the extra moveset with the press of a button. In the case of powerstancing is terribly dissapointing IMO.

Not just an extra moveset but extra damage as well. Powerstancing is super fun and high-risk high-reward and is probably my favourite new feature in DS2.

Edit:

Oh, I think I see your point now. I mean, I quite liked that power-stancing made dual-wielding, even weapons of completely different classes, a viable option in Dark Souls II compared to DeS/DaS. On the other hand, I don't think much of the trick attacks in Bloodborne and so generally just see trick weapons as two classes mashed into one, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who view them more favorably. At the end of the day, I would say each system was built with different goals in mind and that one isn't necessarily an evolution of the other.

I'm disappointed that power-stancing won't make a return in Dark Souls III, just because it was loads of fun to experiment with different combinations and make some wacky yet effective builds, and I don't think trick weapons would necessarily make sense in the universe/setting of the Souls games proper.

Agree completely. I just hope the weapon arts or whatever the new thing is in DS3, will be just as cool and rewarding to experiment with as the powerstancing. I better be able to dual-wield whips, at least! *crackle*

 

[DaciaJC]

Is not about dual welding, is about the extra moveset with the press of a button. In the case of powerstancing is terribly dissapointing IMO.

Oh, I think I see your point now. I mean, I quite liked that power-stancing made dual-wielding, even weapons of completely different classes, a viable option in Dark Souls II compared to DeS/DaS. On the other hand, I don't think much of the trick attacks in Bloodborne and so generally just see trick weapons as two classes mashed into one, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who view them more favorably. At the end of the day, I would say each system was built with different goals in mind and that one isn't necessarily an evolution of the other.

I'm disappointed that power-stancing won't make a return in Dark Souls III, just because it was loads of fun to experiment with different combinations and make some wacky yet effective builds, and I don't think trick weapons would necessarily make sense in the universe/setting of the Souls games proper.

 

[Clear]

I think the ending works well. Between Gywn and his theme, you really feel like the game is ending in the same way the first flame is ending. You get like this weird anxiety because Gwyn is still so proud but so pathetic. I guess it ends abruptly, but it doesn't need to have a dumb speech like DS2.

Whereas in DS2 you fight two guys who are in a place and then a monster lady shows up and does curse stuff but then you kill her. And then Aldia shows up and you kill him but not really. Then you sit in a chair.

Dark Souls ends with a cool looking but empty final zone that contains nothing of interest bar an entirely linear gauntlet of enemies you've already encountered. Then you fight a fairly unspectacular boss, and get one of two really dull endings based on which way you walk afterwards... Before being kicked unceremoniously into the end-credits and NG+.

I LOVE Dark Souls, but the ending isn't great.

DS2 wins above anything else by allowing you the option to stay in your present game cycle in order to finish up covenants and other related bits of business and move on when you're good and ready. Not to mention that NG+ actually switches things up a bit - meaning that the multiple play cycles that are mandatory if you want to get all achievements aren't quite so repetitious.

Vanilla Dark Souls 2 ends far more strongly with its 2 stage final boss (plus bonus fight), and SOTFS even more so with the 3 DLC zones all having spectacular final fights, with completion of them combining to allow special buffs. The endgame of SOTFS is to my mind easily the strongest part of the package, and probably all-round of the series.

 

[Keinu]

DS2 wins above anything else by allowing you the option to stay in your present game cycle in order to finish up covenants and other related bits of business and move on when you're good and ready. Not to mention that NG+ actually switches things up a bit - meaning that the multiple play cycles that are mandatory if you want to get all achievements aren't quite so repetitious.

Yes, the NG+ changes in DS2 was a great addition to the series. Was really disappointed they didn't do something similar in Bloodborne, but hope they add it for DS3. Oh, and they better not leave out the option of using L3 as jump button again.

 

[bobawesome]

I've given up today after dying for the 15# time in this place and I know I will keep playing and will beat the game because the formula is good -due to inheritance and not by own merits-, I might end up liking it for what it is once I get used to the Gameloft knock off-like downgrade in mechanics and gameplay, but this is leagues behind Dark Souls in every aspect except graphics, the perfect definition would be that it's an indie game that tries to be Dark Souls or a game made with effort by people who love the franchise but just can't be on the same level because of numerous reasons, which should be fine if that were what it is, but it's not, it's the official sequel of Dark Souls. I don't know what was going on with From / Bandai-Namco but this mess is unbelievable. If the best people were working on Bloodborne, just wait and don't tarnish the name with a rushed, poor-thought product and just wait for everybody to be available. You can't just outsource the shit out of it and expect good results. I can't believe this game has better critics than Demon's or Dark Souls. Goes to show how laughable the journalism scene is at the moment.

What the fuck? This is possibly the most disrespectful shit I've ever read on this site. You don't like the game, fine, but comparing it to a company whose bread and butter is shitting out inferior, almost broken versions of other games? Anti-DS2 hyperbole has reached a new low. Take a step back and try to remember what an actual bad game plays like. This isn't something you can justify by saying it's your subjective opinion. At the moment you're so disconnected from reality I'm worried you'll disappear at any second.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Not just an extra moveset but extra damage as well. Powerstancing is super fun and high-risk high-reward and is probably my favourite new feature in DS2.

I'm just talking from a pure mechanics stand, extra damage is irrelevant here. I don't find powerstacing fun at all, specially after playing BB.

When I read about it before release I was expecting way more.

 

[OmegaTreeFish]

This argument will go on forever.

Why not take a different approach and try list out what is different about it compared to its predecessor:

- the movement feels quite different
- its combat also feels noticeably differrent
- its RPG elements have a higher importance
- it has more magic options
- it has more build options
- its level design is more linear and less intertwined but also more varied in visual settings
- its world makes less logical sense.
- its durability system is something you now have to pay attention too
- it has way more bosses but a lot of them have similar attack patterns and are humanoid
- its longer
- its easier to level up
- it has more enemies with tied aggro making you fight more than one enemy a lot more more often
- its easier to upgrade weapons
- it has a different healing system
- it has a different bonfire system
- it has a different hollow system

There are more as well but the point is really that whether you like it or not isn't the point. You can't tell someone they are wrong either way. What you can do is acknowledge the it does things notibely different in a lot of ways and some people will like those changes and others won't.

Normally a sequel feels iterative to its predecessor but in dark souls 2's case I feel its fair to say that it could quite easily be given a different name and not seen as I direct sequel as it does so many things in a different way.

My own opinion was given in my own lttp a few months back.

 

[Orochinagis]

Did DS2 remastered fix any of the bullshit of the original game?

Mmmm yes in a certain way, the new enemies placements and the oversaturation of NPCs is kinda annoying now

 

[ChetWilson]

Your whole point about NMW was that a new player who would have accidentally skipped the starting Forest would be underpowered to face NMW and that is somehow "bad design". But that's exactly what a master key trip to Blighttown would do, as well. In fact, it would be magnitudes worse than stumbling onto NMW, because NMW at least has an easier boss and no poison swamp.

You are really stretching it.

The probability of someone arriving at NMW in the early parts of the game is considerably higher then someone... 1, out of all starting options, picking master key, and 2, out of all possible destinations at the beginning (burg, crypt, londo, blight), going with Blight.

As for DS2, I "accidentally" skipped half of forest. For some reason, due to PS3 blur, I didn't see the ladder across from to the Hag at the 2nd bonfire, so I thought that the valley with the flaming longsword was just about it. Spent rest of my time going through Heidi, and toward NMW. I didn't go back to forest until someone told me there was a ladder next to the hag, and Bastille was mostly done iirc.

My point was in the grand scheme of DS2, NMW is an intentional early level with a heavy amount of 'non' early combat encounters. A lot of them... in a row. Whether it comes before/after forest doesn't really mean much. Just looking at Boss Souls awarded from the bosses in both areas, they are comparable in difficulty (LG = 10k, Pursuer = 17k, Flexile = 14k.)

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You are really stretching it.

The probability of someone arriving at NMW in the early parts of the game is considerably higher then someone... 1, out of all starting options, picking master key, and 2, out of all possible destinations at the beginning (burg, crypt, londo, blight), going with Blight.

Yeah, instead they might go to New Londo or the Catacombs, which are even more difficult and hostile to new players...!

You're not helping your own argument right there. And personally I find it extremely unlikely that a new player will arrive at NMW underpowered, because a) they'd need to have missed the crestfallen warrior's advice to visit the Forest and the obvious path leading there and have gone to Heide's instead, and have survived the rather tough (for a starting player) Giant Knights in Heide's too.

As for DS2, I "accidentally" skipped half of forest. For some reason, due to PS3 blur, I didn't see the ladder across from to the Hag at the 2nd bonfire, so I thought that the valley with the flaming longsword was just about it. Spent rest of my time going through Heidi, and toward NMW. I didn't go back to forest until someone told me there was a ladder next to the hag, and Bastille was mostly done iirc.

So it's the game's fault that you didn't explore the Forest correctly? xD

Unbelievable.

My point was in the grand scheme of DS2, NMW is an intentional early level with a heavy amount of 'non' early combat encounters. A lot of them... in a row. Whether it comes before/after forest doesn't really mean much. Just looking at Boss Souls awarded from the bosses in both areas, they are comparable in difficulty (LG = 10k, Pursuer = 17k, Flexile = 14k.)

And my point is that most players aren't blind won't miss an obvious ladder, and will arrive more than prepared for NMW, and if they don't, they can always leave and explore elsewhere so it's not a problem. It wasn't a problem in Dark Souls and it's not a problem in Dark Souls II. Well, unless you make it far enough to reach a bonfire in Dark Souls, and then you're trapped there with bad equipment because you can't warp out. Oops.

 

[RPGam3r]

It added a lot more in

What bullshit? Seriously I honestly don't understand outside some odd world geometry what is bullshit. And even with that I have a really really hard time giving a damn.

 

[NBtoaster]

My point was in the grand scheme of DS2, NMW is an intentional early level with a heavy amount of 'non' early combat encounters. A lot of them... in a row. Whether it comes before/after forest doesn't really mean much. Just looking at Boss Souls awarded from the bosses in both areas, they are comparable in difficulty (LG = 10k, Pursuer = 17k, Flexile = 14k.)

If you can deal with the large knights in Heide's I dont see how the enemies in the wharf can give much trouble. They still die to a few hits, and the dark enemies are mostly optional and have a gimmick to make them easier, and the boss is very easy. Overall its just a small escalation over the complexity and difficulty of the encounters in the forest.

 

[Mman235]

If you can deal with the large knights in Heide's I dont see how the enemies in the wharf can give much trouble. They still die to a few hits, and the dark enemies are mostly optional and have a gimmick to make them easier, and the boss is very easy. Overall its just a small escalation over the complexity and difficulty of the encounters in the forest.

Pretty much; I'm not even sure how this "wander into NMW early" thing works because anyone strong/good enough to get through Heides and Dragonrider is more than tough enough to handle NMW, especially as SOTFS makes Heides somewhat harder.

 

[ChetWilson]

Yawn, still stretching.

Yeah, instead they might go to New Londo or the Catacombs, which are even more difficult and hostile to new players...!

NL and catacombs have alternate forces that tell you it's a bad idea to go there, such as not being able to "kill" the enemies there.

[ And personally I find it extremely unlikely that a new player will arrive at NMW underpowered

The issue is more knowledge... then being underpowered. The power issue is if you can survive a % of the ambush/gimmick/traps first time around in NMW by having enough hp/armor. Yes, in Dark souls you learn through death, and ambushes/gimmicks/traps are fine, but imo its the concentration of those are too much in NMW at that stage in the game. The only zone that really had similar concentration was Sen's and Sen's is halfway through the game.

So it's the game's fault that you didn't explore the Forest correctly? xD

Unbelievable.

There's a correct way to explore a zone in DS? Which one is that, following a gamefaq walkthrough, or mimicing what you saw on someone's twitch channel? News to me bro, news to me..

anyone strong/good enough to get through Heides and Dragonrider is more than tough enough to handle NMW, especially as SOTFS makes Heides somewhat harder.

I think you can just roll right, hit, roll right, hit, dragon rider to death in SOTFS as they removed his 'charge'. You may have to roll right twice if he double swings his halberd.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yawn, still stretching.

The only one stretching things is you with your insistence that NMW is somehow unbalanced for new players, just because you had an unusual experience.

There's a correct way to explore a zone in DS? Which one is that, following a gamefaq walkthrough, or mimicing what you saw on someone's twitch channel? News to me bro, news to me..

Huh? Are you saying you need a guide to be able to find that ladder? xD

You obviously didn't explore it correctly if you missed the largest part of the level which most players will find no problem. That's entirely on you.

 

[Mman235]

I think you can just roll right, hit, roll right, hit, dragon rider to death in SOTFS as they removed his 'charge'. You may have to roll right twice if he double swings his halberd.

If you have the basic awareness/timing to pull that off and a weapon good enough to kill him then you're more than good enough for NMW, so you're proving the point (nevermind getting past all the enemies along the way to Dragonrider).

 

[inoperativ]

Since we're saying nice things about DS2 now I must admit I enjoyed it much more than DS1 the first time through solely because it actually ran above 20 FPS on consoles most of the time. If I would replay them again on PC I would probably go for DS1 first but the overall performance on the 360 was fucking embarrassing and I would probably never have finished the game if I hadn't played DS2 before and had fallen in love with the series enough to forgive flaws like that. Playing them in reverse order certainly didn't help either, I had similar problems to OP with the combat but the other way around.

 

[Moon_frogger]

I really liked No Man's Wharf. That's my insightful contribution.

I did too, especially one you have it all lit up. Some of my favorite coop times were in that area.

 

[Burt]

I spent like my first 6 hours in Dark Souls 2 in No Man's Wharf with the explorer class starting items and (eventually) a dropped bandit axe. It was terrible. I had just finished playing Dark Souls 1 and was pretty fine taking out the big guys in Heide's Tower of Flame and running past the knights because I assumed my gear wasn't up to snuff. I probably would've gotten turned around by the Dragonrider, except he immediately fell off the platform once the fight started. I don't have any lasting hatred for NMW, but yeah, rough start, questionable placement.

Spoiler

I also spent my first few hours in Dark Souls in the catacombs with no divine weapons and severely underleveled

Spoiler

You won't get me this time, Dark Souls 3.

 

[ChetWilson]

If you have the basic awareness/timing to pull that off and a weapon good enough to kill him then you're more than good enough for NMW, so you're proving the point (nevermind getting past all the enemies along the way to Dragonrider).

Can't roll right into deadl water in NMW

The only one stretching things is you with your insistence that NMW is somehow unbalanced for new players, just because you had an unusual experience.

All I would do to NMW is either remove the vikings hanging of the side of the docks and those 2 mannikins after you ring the dock bell. Either that, or I'd have made the entrance to NMW in Bastille more or less where it is.

I think that's it.

Huh? Are you saying you need a guide to be able to find that ladder? xD

You obviously didn't explore it correctly if you missed the largest part of the level which most players will find no problem. That's entirely on you.

There is no explore 'correctly.' That was my point. Did you not explore a zone correctly if you didn't find a hidden bonfire? A hard as shit to see drop down ledge? Or light a certain 'device' w/ a torch to make a boss fight easier? Nothing really 'incorrect' with that.

As for unusual, I also didn't see the stairs down to the firekeeper by firelink shrine for the longest time (till after I rang the bells). Does that make me unusual? I don't think so. A friend of mine didn't see the walkway up to burg and roughed the crypt for 5 hours before I told him that he could go up. Is he unusual to? We just don't solve visual problems with a gamma slider.

 

[RevenWolf]

Can't roll right into deadl water in NMW



All I would do to NMW is either remove the vikings hanging of the side of the docks and those 2 mannikins after you ring the dock bell. Either that, or I'd have made the entrance to NMW in Bastille more or less where it is.

I think that's it.



There is no explore 'correctly.' That was my point. Did you not explore a zone correctly if you didn't find a hidden bonfire? A hard as shit to see drop down ledge? Or light a certain 'device' w/ a torch to make a boss fight easier? Nothing really 'incorrect' with that.

As for unusual, I also didn't see the stairs down to the firekeeper by firelink shrine for the longest time (till after I rang the bells). Does that make me unusual? I don't think so. A friend of mine didn't see the walkway up to burg and roughed the crypt for 5 hours before I told him that he could go up. Is he unusual to? We just don't solve visual problems with a gamma slider.

Or you know, just attack them at range? Cheap ass bow, wooden arrow, you don't even need to be proficient.

Every ambush in that area can be spotted and thwarted really easily, help the ones on the docks you can literally hit with melee and kill them instantly.

I would also argue that a relatively shallow hole with lights at the bottem, near a lit bonfire might attract more curiosity, will some miss it? Of course, as you mentioned, so how is nmw negative but the catacombs not?

It seems like catacombs etc are significantly worse in this regard, and also punish someone skilled enough to reach a bonfire by being stuck there.

 

[Already Torn]

NMW is fine. Heide's Tower of flame is more difficult than it, so it's clear that you're not supposed to go there until later. The ambushes are easy to see with a torch, and the enemies are weak.

It's also one of the only areas that isn't a worse version of a DkS1 area.

 

[Red Liquorice]

For all it's good and bad, the most succinct thought that sums up all the critiques I have for the game is that DS2 is the Saturday morning cartoon version of the Souls series.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

People hating on NMW now? I thought it was one of the strongest areas of the game. This game just really can't catch a break with some people.

 

[Lumination]

Here's what it boils down to for me. Yes, DS2 has lots of cool options between powerstancing and the breadth of weapons and spells. However the core gameplay feels so bad that none of it matters.

I won't list all the reasons that have been spelled out countless times, but I feel like there isn't anything egregiously awful; there's just so many negatives that they become more than the sum of their parts. I often read responses to criticism like "DS1 had _____ too", but the difference is that DS1 at least had the atmosphere and solid gameplay to keep me going through my lowest lows (like getting stuck in Tomb of Giants before warp). DS2's lore fell flat (did anyone enjoy recycled Ornstein?) and the gameplay felt half-baked. After beating the Rat King, I realized I wasn't having fun fighting large mobs of dudes before and during every 3rd boss fight. This is even with a two-handed STR build. Also, I don't think the issues like hitboxes happened nearly as frequently in DS1.

After multiple attempts, I've just decided to write off the time I spent with it, which was inconceivable to me, and just move on to DS3.

I also reject the idea of "the B team" or whatever. I didn't know know about that whole situation until after quitting it the first time. This topic comes up enough times that I think it's disrespectful to wave off discontent opinions as Miyazaki bias.

 

[Nev]

https://youtu.be/SD1WWoN1cew

Alright so I uploaded a No-Man's Wharf run I did just to see how many of the complaints in the OP would show up and just try to illustrate the thing to some extent. Turns out I didn't have to force it for most of them to happen:

00:15 - Sniper arrow out of nowhere. I know it comes from the guy on top of the building but the first time you go this way you probably won't even see him before you have an arrow in your ass, mainly because you're busy fighting a dog and a zombie while dodging another sniper from another direction. This one is the least flagrant anyways.

00:20 - I get hit when I'm rolling and the character doesn't give a shit, but the lifebar does. Also the axe clearly doesn't hit my character at all.

00:43 - One hit stops him but the next one doesn't, despite being the same kind of attack/weapon.

01:00 - Self-explanatory awful hitbox/hit detection.

01:43- New parry has barely the same effect of a shield block despite being much riskier and harder to perform than a parry in Dark Souls or a shield block in this game.

02:04 - I don't expect that zombie but I can't do anything to react because drinking estus is a sacred ritual in Drangleic that can't be interrupted or accelerated. You couldn't move in DaS either but it didn't take 1 minute to drink.

02:21 - I don't know where the fuck does this bullshit damage come from but I assume it's from the barely initiated attack animation of the dead zombie.

03:28 - Amateur, hardly tested hit detection.

03:31 - Vikings like their ice skating and instant magnet attraction to get to their targets. Literal first time I see such blatant low quality shit in these games.

03:47 - A viking come from behind for apparently no reason. I assume it's the one that doesn't aggro for some reason and therefore I didn't kill, but I don't understand why I'm triggering him this time around, I guess because the game recognized a gang bang opportunity and also throws in a random common zombie that I certainly didn't leave behind.

You can deal with that and more in Bloodborne because the game is designed around it and your character has ways to overcome the challenge. Even with the tools you have in that game, the pack of enemies don't attack at all times like they do here. Here, you have a very limited stamina bar -while the enemies' are infinite-, a dodge with barely any i-frames and a map filled with aggroable enemies everywhere. It's plain cheap and unfair, just ridiculous. The best strategy is to lure them to a zone where they can fall off the map. And it's not like you get in these situations because you rush or fail at something or just actively want to like it usually is in Dark Souls or Demon's, it's because the levels are designed for these kind of situations to happen every moment while not giving you the tools to deal with it properly.

4:25 - I have no stamina but I can roll, though the dodge keeps being useless as it doesn't mitigate damage let alone dodge it. Curious thing about this moment though is that one might thing that the delay between the end of the attack and the roll is caused by the lack of stamina -which would make sense and it's how it is in previous games-, but the fact is that it's indeed the usual recovery time of a short sword's R1 attack and basically every weapon. By the way, if you attack the ones with the two swords when they are blocking, they show feedback, whereas if you attack them when their chest is open because they're swinging their swords, with most probability they will ignore it and go on with the attack.

5:53 - The epitome of useless roll/bullshit hitboxes. First off, he hits me while I'm attacking but my character doesn't show any feedback, then I clearly dodge the next attack but he hits me for full damage and the character couldn't be less bothered about losing half his lifebar. Listen, if you want to make roll less useful I'm fine with that, but how about you show some feedback like I don't know, the character actually BEING HIT like it is in every other goddamn game of the franchise? I just can't believe this is a thing in this game. Like holy shit the fact that it's a "feature" is beyond unfathomable.

Also, what's the point of rolling anyways? You're gonna get hit most of the time no matter how you time it, especially in mobs with long range like that one -or those with just plain broken hitboxes like the eagle knight at the giants forest or whatever he's called-, so not using the shield at all times is strongly discouraged -so much for increased build variety. And I'm not expecting the dodge from Bloodborne, just the balanced roll of DeS and DaS that allowed players to play two-handed weapons, dual weilding or any other build with no shield and have a high risk, high reward aggressive playstyle that at least isn't just "turtle the hell out of it".

06:25 - I try to lock on the target in front of me but the new "improved" system locks on a target below I can't even see.

06:55 - With this level of fall damage I don't even know why they bothered with a jump button. I guess the chosen undead just isn't very fit despite holding inmense weapons and weighty armor. That or he just has Crystal Not-so-straight Legs +1.

08:36 - Again, the infamous "invulnerable-just-not-really-dodging-anything" roll. Punch in the face but the character goes on with the rolling. Hey I might be taking damage but I'm not letting the out-of-place weird Oolacile rehash know.

09:37 - After killing 4 of those and dealing with the bleeding status I can get even by blocking attacks with a shield, I just needed another one to come down from the skies to hit me with his magnet punch through my useless roll.

11:15 - I won't even bother to describe this. Amateur or rushed doesn't do justice to it.

On the bright side, I killed -yet another dissapointing- boss and got to Lost Bastille, which I enjoyed quite a lot more than any of the previous zones despite having those nasty exploding zombies.

 

[Necromanti]

https://youtu.be/SD1WWoN1cew

Alright so I uploaded a No-Man's Wharf run I did just to see how many of the complaints in the OP would show up and just try to illustrate the thing to some extent. Turns out I didn't have to force it for most of them to happen:

Have you considered getting a bow to draw out enemies one by one when you feel overwhelmed? I've noticed that you tend to rush into an area and then aggro multiple enemies at once (which isn't really tankable in a game like this).

I don't know much about poise, but maybe that's what's related to what's happening in 00:20. As for 01:00/02:21/03:28, I can see you getting hit (pretty clearly) when you slow down the video/watch it frame-by-frame. You just don't have invincibility in the frames you're getting hit during your roll. It can feel pretty different coming from DS1 (or BB), so it takes some time to adjust to it. You need to time your rolls differently or in a different direction. I had the toughest time in the beginning of the game, but it got progressively more natural.

Lost Bastille is a pretty cool area.

 

[RevenWolf]

https://youtu.be/SD1WWoN1cew

Alright so I uploaded a No-Man's Wharf run I did just to see how many of the complaints in the OP would show up and just try to illustrate the thing to some extent. Turns out I didn't have to force it for most of them to happen:

00:15 - Sniper arrow out of nowhere. I know it comes from the guy on top of the building but the first time you go this way you probably won't even see him before you have an arrow in your ass, mainly because you're busy fighting a dog and a zombie while dodging another sniper from another direction. This one is the least flagrant anyways.

00:20 - I get hit when I'm rolling and the character doesn't give a shit, but the lifebar does. Also the axe clearly doesn't hit my character at all.

00:43 - One hit stops him but the next one doesn't, despite being the same kind of attack/weapon.

01:00 - Self-explanatory awful hitbox/hit detection.

01:43- New parry has barely the same effect of a shield block despite being much riskier and harder to perform than a parry in Dark Souls or a shield block in this game.

02:04 - I don't expect that zombie but I can't do anything to react because drinking estus is a sacred ritual in Drangleic that can't be interrupted or accelerated. You couldn't move in DaS either but it didn't take 1 minute to drink.

02:21 - I don't know where the fuck does this bullshit damage come from but I assume it's from the barely initiated attack animation of the dead zombie.

03:28 - Amateur, hardly tested hit detection.

03:31 - Vikings like their ice skating and instant magnet attraction to get to their targets. Literal first time I see such blatant low quality shit in these games.

03:47 - A viking come from behind for apparently no reason. I assume it's the one that doesn't aggro for some reason and therefore I didn't kill, but I don't understand why I'm triggering him this time around, I guess because the game recognized a gang bang opportunity and also throws in a random common zombie that I certainly didn't leave behind.

You can deal with that and more in Bloodborne because the game is designed around it and your character has ways to overcome the challenge. Even with the tools you have in that game, the pack of enemies don't attack at all times like they do here. Here, you have a very limited stamina bar -while the enemies' are infinite-, a dodge with barely any i-frames and a map filled with aggroable enemies everywhere. It's plain cheap and unfair, just ridiculous. The best strategy is to lure them to a zone where they can fall off the map. And it's not like you get in these situations because you rush or fail at something or just actively want to like it usually is in Dark Souls or Demon's, it's because the levels are designed for these kind of situations to happen every moment while not giving you the tools to deal with it properly.

4:25 - I have no stamina but I can roll, though the dodge keeps being useless as it doesn't mitigate damage let alone dodge it. Curious thing about this moment though is that one might thing that the delay between the end of the attack and the roll is caused by the lack of stamina -which would make sense and it's how it is in previous games-, but the fact is that it's indeed the usual recovery time of a short sword's R1 attack and basically every weapon. By the way, if you attack the ones with the two swords when they are blocking, they show feedback, whereas if you attack them when their chest is open because they're swinging their swords, with most probability they will ignore it and go on with the attack.

5:53 - The epitome of useless dodge/bullshit hitboxes. First off, he hits me while I'm attacking but my character doesn't show any feedback, then I clearly dodge the next attack but he hits me for full damage and the character couldn't be less bothered about losing half his lifebar. Listen, if you want to make roll less useful I'm fine with that, but how about you show some feedback like I don't know, the character actually BEING HIT like it is in every other goddamn game of the franchise? I just can't believe this is a thing in this game. Like holy shit the fact that it's a "feature" is beyond unfathomable.

Also, what's the point of rolling anyways? You're gonna get hit most of the time no matter how you time it, especially in mobs with long range like that one -or those with just plain broken hitboxes like the eagle knight at the giants forest or whatever he's called-, so not using the shield at all times is strongly discouraged -so much for increased build variety. And I'm not expecting the dodge from Bloodborne, just the balanced roll of DeS and DaS that allowed players to play two-handed weapons and have a somewhat high risk, high reward aggressive playstyle that at least isn't just "turtle the hell out of it".

06:25 - I try to lock on the target in front of me but the new "improved" system locks on a target below I can't even see.

06:55 - With this level of fall damage I don't even know why they bothered with a jump button. I guess the chosen undead just isn't very fit despite holding inmense weapons and weighty armor. That or he just has Crystal Not-so-straight Legs +1.

08:36 - Again, the infamous "invulnerable-just-not-really-dodging-anything" roll. Punch in the face but the character goes on with the rolling. Hey I might be taking damage but I'm not letting the out-of-place weird Oolacile rehash know.

09:37 - After killing 4 of those and dealing with the bleeding status I can get even by blocking attacks with a shield, I just needed another one to come down from the skies to hit me with his magnet punch through my useless roll.

11:15 - I won't even bother to describe this. Amateur or rushed doesn't do justice to it.

On the bright side, I killed -yet another dissapointing- boss and got to Lost Bastille, which I enjoyed quite a lot more than any of the previous zones despite having those nasty exploding zombies.

On mobile so can't comment on anything but the first 15 arrow from nowhere complaint,

Blight town toxin dart shooters say hello and pulls that multiple times

So right there is a bit of a double standard I feel, the rest unfortunately don't have time to switch between video and tab etc, but I will say hit boxes are usually not perfectly around a body, they normally take a default shape so that skinnier characters don't get an advantage over fat ones, thus it's a hard thing to do right, too accurate and you have the weapons that are useless against crystal lizards for example.

 

[MGrant]

https://youtu.be/SD1WWoN1cew

Alright so I uploaded a No-Man's Wharf run I did just to see how many of the complaints in the OP would show up and just try to illustrate the thing to some extent. Turns out I didn't have to force it for most of them to happen:

You're relying on your shield too much, I think. DS2 I've found to require a bit more initiative in fighting than DS1, there are lots of openings in here that you don't take advantage of because you put your shield up and hesitate. Rolling should be your go-to for most moves that you know are coming, and more two-handing that sword whenever you have an opening. Also, you gotta move in closer for the parry stab to work, though it wouldn't have made a difference here because the other undead would have hit you during the animation.

There are also a lot of mistakes caused by advancing when you should hold your ground for a bit and finish what you're dealing with. You pull a lot of unnecessary enemies at once and then you can't move or react carefully enough. The movement and enemies are faster in DS2, but levels actually have to be taken slower than in the first game because of how much riskier encounters are.

 

[Ellite25]

I hope three has the option to hide the HUD when not in combat like 2. My plasma would appreciate it.

 

[Quicknock]

For all it's good and bad, the most succinct thought that sums up all the critiques I have for the game is that DS2 is the Saturday morning cartoon version of the Souls series.

That... what?

I can't even... how do you parse this? How is this comparison supposed to work? This analogy makes no sense. I don't get it. Explain yourself!

 

[Already Torn]

That... what?

I can't even... how do you parse this? How is this comparison supposed to work? This analogy makes no sense. I don't get it. Explain yourself!

It tries fun stuff but is a neutered version of the original? Lower production values but still enjoyable in its on way?

 

[Quicknock]

Thread made me go look through my screenshots for nostalgia's sake. Forgot how pretty the game could look at times (with shader mods, mind you). Just a shame about what happened to the original lighting.

My old character's still looking quite sharp:

I can only hope Dark Souls 3 lets me make even better characters.

It tries fun stuff but is a neutered version of the original? Lower production values but still enjoyable in its on way?

I guess I don't know what "saturday morning cartoon" means nowadays, because from my recollection "saturday morning cartoon" does not in any way imply an adaptation or spin-off of an existing piece of media. Hence my confusion.

 

[nailbombxx]

Here's what it boils down to for me. Yes, DS2 has lots of cool options between powerstancing and the breadth of weapons and spells. However the core gameplay feels so bad that none of it matters.

I won't list all the reasons that have been spelled out countless times, but I feel like there isn't anything egregiously awful; there's just so many negatives that they become more than the sum of their parts. I often read responses to criticism like "DS1 had _____ too", but the difference is that DS1 at least had the atmosphere and solid gameplay to keep me going through my lowest lows (like getting stuck in Tomb of Giants before warp). DS2's lore fell flat (did anyone enjoy recycled Ornstein?) and the gameplay felt half-baked. After beating the Rat King, I realized I wasn't having fun fighting large mobs of dudes before and during every 3rd boss fight. This is even with a two-handed STR build. Also, I don't think the issues like hitboxes happened nearly as frequently in DS1.

After multiple attempts, I've just decided to write off the time I spent with it, which was inconceivable to me, and just move on to DS3.

I also reject the idea of "the B team" or whatever. I didn't know know about that whole situation until after quitting it the first time. This topic comes up enough times that I think it's disrespectful to wave off discontent opinions as Miyazaki bias.

The game's troubled development cycle is well documented, so it makes sense that there would be some parts where the game just isn't up to snuff, and there definitely are those cases. Yet people want to pretend it is immaculate for whatever reason. How someone could not notice these flaws if they've played the other games is beyond me. Whether they give a fuck about and still enjoyed it is another issue entirely, and that's fine.

EDIT: I'm also hoping that no one is thinking that I'm just trashing this game and calling it shit. I'm playing through it on my 3rd character right now and still enjoy it to an extent, I'm more just a disappointed fan.

 

[Azzanadra]

Dark Souls ends with a cool looking but empty final zone that contains nothing of interest bar an entirely linear gauntlet of enemies you've already encountered. Then you fight a fairly unspectacular boss, and get one of two really dull endings based on which way you walk afterwards... Before being kicked unceremoniously into the end-credits and NG+.

I LOVE Dark Souls, but the ending isn't great.

DS2 wins above anything else by allowing you the option to stay in your present game cycle in order to finish up covenants and other related bits of business and move on when you're good and ready. Not to mention that NG+ actually switches things up a bit - meaning that the multiple play cycles that are mandatory if you want to get all achievements aren't quite so repetitious.

Vanilla Dark Souls 2 ends far more strongly with its 2 stage final boss (plus bonus fight), and SOTFS even more so with the 3 DLC zones all having spectacular final fights, with completion of them combining to allow special buffs. The endgame of SOTFS is to my mind easily the strongest part of the package, and probably all-round of the series.

Bloodborne probably has the best ending in the series. One huge, complex and grand labyrinth of a level followed by a succession of three bosses- with each potentially being the final boss depending on your choices. I thought Dark Souls was good for what it was- for the theme that was running through it, the Kiln being somber and empty was rather fitting.

 

[nailbombxx]

Bloodborne probably has the best ending in the series. One huge, complex and grand labyrinth of a level followed by a succession of three bosses- with each potentially being the final boss depending on your choices. I thought Dark Souls was good for what it was- for the theme that was running through it, the Kiln being somber and empty was rather fitting.

The Kiln wasn't the most eventful or exciting level (it had like 5 enemies) but I do like its atmosphere. It simultaneously feels like the beginning and the end of the world.

 

[Clear]

https://youtu.be/SD1WWoN1cew

Alright so I uploaded a No-Man's Wharf run I did just to see how many of the complaints in the OP would show up and just try to illustrate the thing to some extent. Turns out I didn't have to force it for most of them to happen:

No offence but running around with the camera pointed down at the floor in an area where FLAMING arrows are flying in from above from the outset is not very smart.

Also, why do you choose to use the bow to shoot at an enemy you've just run into melee aggro range of, rather than using it from an appropriate distance?

Spider monkeys retreat from fire and light, which is why there are multiple unlit braziers around the area and indeed a giant chandelier to light.

But hey, why apply any thought to your approach when you can run around like reckless maniac and (mostly) get away with it. Try that approach in Anor Londo and see how it works out for you !

 

[Lumination]

The game's troubled development cycle is well documented, so it makes sense that there would be some parts where the game just isn't up to snuff, and there definitely are those cases. Yet people want to pretend it is immaculate for whatever reason. How someone could not notice these flaws if they've played the other games is beyond me. Whether they give a fuck about and still enjoyed it is another issue entirely, and that's fine.

EDIT: I'm also hoping that no one is thinking that I'm just trashing this game and calling it shit. I'm playing through it on my 3rd character right now and still enjoy it to an extent, I'm more just a disappointed fan.

Right. I'm a Souls fan as much as the next guy. I mean half the reason this topic comes up so often is because of the enthusiasm and expectations the community has for this series.

Just because I couldn't finish it doesn't mean it's objectively bad. It does some things right and some things wrong. It's just that for a subset of fans like me, the wrongs outweigh the rights. It's ok to acknowledge that and still enjoy the game.

 

[DarkFlame]

The Kiln wasn't the most eventful or exciting level (it had like 5 enemies) but I do like its atmosphere. It simultaneously feels like the beginning and the end of the world.

Even the underused Kiln of the First Flame shows how amazing artwork the original Dark Souls had....damn what an excellent game,don't know if it'll ever be topped

 

[generic_username]

Bloodborne's final boss

Spoiler

Gehrman and not Moon Presence

is the greatest last boss in any souls game ever.

 

[Marty-esque]

I had 40 adaptability with lightest attire and a katana. Without a shield I still felt slower than every enemy. Same with attacking.

 

[Kagutaba]

I had 40 adaptability with lightest attire and a katana. Without a shield I still felt slower than every enemy. Same with attacking.

That's because adaptability only affects invincibility frames and item usage speed. It's not going to fix all the other unnecessary changes making the game feel slow, floaty and well... kinda bad. Changes being how the roll was made slower and less springy, the stamina regeneration was slowed down, the estus flask was slowed down (max adaptability matters little), the healing rate was slowed down, the character attack animations/recovery was slowed down, and the movement was changed for the worse with noticeable dead zones introduced (try moving the left stick slightly to the left or right while moving and you will feel it). This in combination with mobs with poorly made and longer lasting attack animations with heavy tracking across the board (leaving you with less time for attack and far more time for waiting... on your stamina to recharge... or the enemy mobs to stop flailing around forever) and it's no wonder you feel slower. You feel so because it is so.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Also this. Its as if people choose to not believe Miyazaki and other devs at From when they say he has his hand in almost everything about these games. The difference is there. Just that some choose to ignore it.

For me Bloodborne confirmed how much of a difference it makes having Miyazaki at the helm. I found it so much more memorable than DS2. The combat is better and level design and atmosphere are closer to the original DS in quality. I actually wanted to play through BB again when I had finished it. I don't feel inclined to ever go back to DS2.

DS2 still holds up mechanically. I don't really buy into all the complaints about hit boxes, ADP etc. It falls flat because it doesn't come close to the others for atmosphere and much of the game world feels rushed.

 

[Teeth]

Fuck your get good attitude. I did beat it SL1, in Company of Champions too, and without any kind of cheesy throwables or DLC stat boosting items. Can I say adaptability sucks now? You need the iframes more in this game than the others because the hitboxes are shit, and because enemy attacks track you to an insane degree. You know the black phantom outside Executioner's Chariot? I've started rolling past that guy as he initiated a jump attack, and he I SHIT YOU NOT turned almost 180 degrees in MIDAIR to track me. Dodge that. (He wasn't making a u-turn, he wasn't moving as hit hitbox was rubbing up against me for the entire jump).

Nothing you're saying has anything to do with Adaptability.

Your problems are with attack tracking and some animation/hit/hurt box issues. All of which can be dodged with a properly timed and aimed roll at base adaptability. Including the dude you rolled into at the beginning of his attack (wherein all i-frames in DS games happen at the beginning of the roll, so dodging a slow attack miles before it hits you is going to get you into trouble).

But feel free to be very very upset.

 

[Lumination]

Nothing you're saying has anything to do with Adaptability.

Your problems are with attack tracking and some animation/hit/hurt box issues.

But feel free to be very very upset.

These issues would be somewhat alleviated/bandaided if iframes were better. Hitboxes, tracking, and lack of iframes are separate issues that exacerbate each other and cause for some very shitty moments in the game.

And yes, your comment was obnoxious as hell.

 

[Sushi Nao]

I think if DS2 had the same movement characteristics as the first, 10-15% more recursion in the level design, and more consistency in levels of artistic detail, it would be perfect.

Oh, and also less item descriptions in which lore trails off in a "but hey, why bother thinking about it" cop-out kind of way.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Absolutely agree although I'm currently level 130-ish and recently just received the item that allows approach to the end game. Been taking my time as I did with the original but it's been dreadful with the godawful hitboxes. My fucking biggest gripe.

 

[Maddrical]

Morrigan Stark I don't know how you find the motivation to defend DS2 so much. I love the game, it's probably tied as my favourite in the Soulsborne games and I always agree with your posts, but man, I admire your persistence to defend the game.

The funniest thing I've seen in this thread is people claiming DS2 wouldn't have been a hit if it wasn't a sequel to DS and even comparing it to LOTF.

 

[Teeth]

These issues would be somewhat alleviated/bandaided if iframes were better. Hitboxes, tracking, and lack of iframes are separate issues that exacerbate each other and cause for some very shitty moments in the game.

And yes, your comment was obnoxious as hell.

It would just make the game less strict.

A lot of what I see in bad hit boxes is toes getting clipped on rolls and people claiming to be miles away. The animations exacerbate the problem, most egregiously on grabs, as the minor tags get played out like the avatar was right in the center. But that's an animation issue more than a gameplay one.

The tracking thing is tough. DS1 does the same thing but with a different animation style; in DS1, the enemies would plant their feet and raise their sword, then, in the transition of the downward slash, would instantaneously flip around and strike at you. It looks better, because the pivot happens during a transition, but it doesn't read like enemy is going to track you until they do. DS2 enemies do the ice skate feet track while circling around them, which looks terrible, but they plant when they actually do the swing (no instantaneous pivot). This conveys that the enemy is going to swing while always oriented in your direction (identical to DS1 in function, but actually showing it on screen).

This is what causes the instances like the previous poster complained about with the dude doing the jump attack and then turning 180 and attack the opposite direction (and then the next poster subsequently showing a gif of a DS hollow doing nearly the identical thing). You can see/notice the difference in the two: The DS1 hollow is tracking the user on the transition animation (the jump)...he literally curves in the air. The DS2 enemy continues to jump forward, but once he hits the gound, he plants and attacks towards the user. Same thing, different animation.

 

[Already Torn]

Morrigan Stark I don't know how you find the motivation to defend DS2 so much. I love the game, it's probably tied as my favourite in the Soulsborne games and I always agree with your posts, but man, I admire your persistence to defend the game.

The funniest thing I've seen in this thread is people claiming DS2 wouldn't have been a hit if it wasn't a sequel to DS and even comparing it to LOTF.

I still stand by that! It's not a good game.