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[Intheflorsh]

I would have agreed with OP after my first playthrough.

Then I

Spoiler

git good'ed.

 

[Wensih]

Making your way through the level again after dying to the boss is essential to Souls. Sometimes it's a long way, sometimes short. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes hard.

What matters is that it's interesting and engaging, like pretty much any level in Demon's Souls is. There are several instances in DS2 where to get to the boss, all the player has to do is fight through a literal corridor filled with difficult enemies. Black gulch, Drangleic castle and Undead crypt come to mind. It's terrible level design. Other instances like Huntsman's Corpse come close to the way Demon's Souls was designed, but inexplicably botch it utterly. Why would there be a shortcut that just leads to another bonfire, and then no shortcut to the boss?

DS2 is just a poorly designed game in many respects. I don't really fault the team, it seems clear from interviews that the game had to be totally restructured at some point, maybe due to technical issues.

Honestly, when I'm trying to get to a boss, I just run past every enemy until I hit the fog door. In DS2, however, I just ran past hallways filled with enemies no matter the situation. I'm not going to fight a horde if I can easily run past everything in the game.

 

[DedValve]

Honestly the worst thing about Dark Souls 2 is the lack of proper "you got hit" animations.

I understand part of it was so that you can still attack immediately after being attacked (or roll, block, etc.) but the lack of any FEEDBACK that you've been hit usually causes me to not notice for a second or two in the heat of battle and make a poor choice as a result.

Once I noticed it (after it feeling so 'off' for the first couple of hours) I was better able to manage it but its by far the worst choice of the game and I say this as someone who ADORES DS2.

Bloodborne imo nailed the hit detection with the ability to quickly react after getting hit.

 

[TatteredHat]

I still had fun with it, but it is the only Souls game that I have 0 interest in ever touching again.

 

[guyssorry]

My friends and I, all of which consider DS1 to be arguably the best game ever, absolutely loved DS2. It was different, yes, but we all had a blast. There is a lot of content, weapon variety, secrets, and some of the levels are excellent. It wasn't until I visited the internet that I realized there was so much disdain for DS2. I liked it a lot more than BB. There was more level variety, color, weapon variety, build variety, and the DLC is so fantastic. I felt more satisfied after DS2 than I did with BB, but BB is still a great game. Anyway, the DS2 hate is pretty interesting to me. Sorry you didn't enjoy it more, OP.

 

[Vinland]

Great post. Now watch as no one attempts to refute your claim because everything you say is true but proceed to say insubstantial things like "Dark Souls 2 gameplay is more fluid".

How about you don't assume his issues make the combat in dark souls 2 less fluid than any other game in the series. Moreover, why do you feel we need to rebuttal an argument where one of the points dismisses player vs npcs phantom balance and the other makes a general statement saying animations are terrible and then cherry picking examples as if they are the rule.

Shameful post tbh.

 

[Clear]

In reality, it's very easy to understand the reasons why people dislike it:

Lets examine this:

- The gameplay mechanics are severely downgraded

Entirely untrue, certainly by my understanding of the actual meaning of "mechanics"in game design. Downgrade would imply simplification in terms of depth, complexity and functionality in the various systems of the game; whereas in actuality the opposite is true and easily demonstrable by a feature-set comparison.

- The gameplay mechanics are tied to a stat, even though this is primarily an action game

Its a RPG as much as anything else, and reading between the lines the reference seems specific to ADP, as I can't imagine the complaint being about STR, DEX etc.
Bottom line though, you should know what it does and why it matters in DS2's stat configuration, and how its correct usage nullifies many of the complaints about the combat system.

- The world design is nonexistent. People keep bringing up this commonly cited example because it's just egregious: you can take an 'up' elevator from the top of a high tower and reach an underground castle with a moat made of lava.

Empty hyperbole. That one area gets so much attention because it is an exception, rather than the rule.

- Enemy encounter design is extremely repetitive and not at all thought through.

SOTFS has more variety in combat design than DS by a very large margin.

- Cheap enemy AI that perfectly tracks you, has literally unlimited stamina, inconsistent attack recovery time and unlimited poise
- Awful hitboxes
- Wonky "physics." Getting hit by a giant with a sword in Heide's tower of flame doesn't even knock you down; it just makes you flinch.

None of which appear to faze speed-runners and other high-difficulty players. I see a lot of complaints listed, but none of the points raised are actually that problematic.

Sorry, but all I see is a litany of reasons for why the game isn't to your personal taste. Which is fine, but if none of the issues listed ever caused a person any issues during their time with the game, its hardly compelling, incisive critique.

More like nit-picks blown up to be elephantine problems in re-telling.

 

[pokemonsquared]

I liked DSII for the most part.

Except for the fucking bullshit challenge areas in the DLC. Those fucking horses in the frozen outskits gave me PTSD.

 

[Kyleripman]

Except for the fucking bullshit challenge areas in the DLC. Those fucking horses in the frozen outskits gave me PTSD.

Amen. Single worst area in a Souls game.

On topic, I like DS2, especially once you've jacked up adaptability; it feels pretty good.

 

[test_account]

- The world design is nonexistent. People keep bringing up this commonly cited example because it's just egregious: you can take an 'up' elevator from the top of a high tower and reach an underground castle with a moat made of lava.

There is no underground castle in the game. The area with the castle sinking into the molten lava is on top of the mountain. You can see the sky when you're in that area. The reason why people keep mentiong this example is because when you're in Earthen Peak, the background mountain isnt close enough for it to look like the elevator going up to the mountain. Or people didnt really notice the mountain in the background.

 

[NEO0MJ]

We need a bingo card for DS2 threads. It's the same gifs, videos, Earthen Peak, B-Team, Miyazkis touch, backstabbing that gets brought up every time.

Yeah, I feel we're just going in circles now.

I liked DSII for the most part.

Except for the fucking bullshit challenge areas in the DLC. Those fucking horses in the frozen outskits gave me PTSD.

Call me crazy but I rather like the Iron Passage. Isn't it what Souls fans wanted, making going to the boss a challenge instead of a 3 minute jog?

 

[DoubleTake]

How about you don't assume his issues make the combat in dark souls 2 less fluid than any other game in the series. Moreover, why do you feel we need to rebuttal an argument where one of the points dismisses player vs npcs phantom balance and the other makes a general statement saying animations are terrible and then cherry picking examples as if they are the rule.

Shameful post tbh.

I find it telling you chose to quote me instead of replying to his post. Point proven.

And where did I say that his issues are to do with fluidity of combat? My point was that whenever someone praises Ds2 combat the main thing they come up with is how "fluid" it feels to play. That is such a nebulous statement and doesnt look into the finer details of what makes it "fluid", if it even is. I and many others have posted so many times on why Ds2 combat actually isnt more fluid and go into detail about why, much more than those that say its gameplay is better than DeS/Ds1/BB.

Also what is your definition of fluid combat? Is having to wait for your character to slowly turn around after rolling away before you can counter attack fluid?

What about like what OP said? Attack animations that have such long recovery frames you're programmed to only attack enemies when youre %100 certain its an attack you wont be punished for.

The other games dont have these problems. In them I can roll away from an enemy and immediately counter attack. There's no noticeable wait/reposition time.

In the other games recovery animations arent so long that you become conditioned to playing overly cautious all the time. They allow you to get a bit hammy every once in a while compared to Ds2.

Animations wise Ds2 isnt anywhere near as good as the other games. R2-R1 weapon swings that dont chain smoothly but did in the older games. Enemies that look like a high school kid animated. Hit reactions that look like someone shoved me instead of like I was smacked with a 100lb great hammer.

Its all there if you care to actually look.

 

[Zombegoast]

It's kinda amazing how people can defend something without backing up their stance

 

[Dahaka]

Do we know if Dark Souls 3 and 2 are connected lore-wise/story wise?

 

[DoubleTake]

Do we know if Dark Souls 3 and 2 are connected lore-wise/story wise?

They are in some way. There's thrones.

 

[Berto]

I was disapointed because it was a lot less memorable than the first one, but I still enjoyed it, like a lot. Enough to spend close to 80 hours on it.

 

[takriel]

They are in some way. There's thrones.

And a giant.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

I love reading these threads so much. It never gets old haha.

 

[Vinland]

I find it telling you chose to quote me instead of replying to his post. Point proven.

And where did I say that his issues are to do with fluidity of combat? My point was that whenever someone praises Ds2 combat the main thing they come up with is how "fluid" it feels to play. That is such a nebulous statement and doesnt look into the finer details of what makes it "fluid", if it even is. I and many others have posted so many times on why Ds2 combat actually isnt more fluid and go into detail about why that much more than those that say its gameplay is better than DeS/Ds1/BB.

Also what is your definition of fluid combat.

The person you quoted had 2 points that were completely logical falicies. And since they were opinions I didn't feel the need to raise an objection because their experience is their own. But your terrible post, that one was passive aggressive and dismissive. Your point was not proven. You cherry picked a pretty weak argument to have confirmation bias.

Instead of raising the question of why you may feel it may not be as fluid you passive aggressively give a seal of approval of his post as if he is correct. His statements don't make any fucking sense in two of his arguments in regards to fluidity. One of them is just an immersion breaking observation. The other cherry picks a few enemies.

dark souls 2 combat isn't perfectly fluid. Neither was it in demons souls or dark souls 1. It's combat is still pretty fun and isn't a total jank show.

 

[DustyVonEric]

I agree with OP about everything he said. And I actually like DkS2. Just not as much as the other Soulsborne games.

My biggest gripe was Adaptability.

 

[IronLich]

I will say that Scholar of the First Sin is the first time I've played a Souls game seriously. I didn't like the previous Souls games in terms of starving you of proper checkpoints, and 20-30 minutes of progress just vanishes in a flash unless you know how to open that one shortcut. I feel like DS2 is far more inviting in this regard, especially how often you find bonfires not too far away from the boss. It helps me focus on fighting the boss, and not the area that the boss happens to be at the end of.

I actually got accustomed to the feel of movement and combat, and playing it on PS4 with 60FPS really helped matters. I understood the delay in the sprint, the exact points where it's ok to roll, keeping your shield steady and then relaxing it for stamina regain... It's probably appropriate that the one Souls game I really wanted to put the time into is the black sheep of the family. But I really enjoyed it. It made me want to look into Dark Souls III sometime in the future... if I really hate myself.

 

[Demoskinos]

Dark Souls 2 is great. The first one bored me to pieces.

 

[140.85]

I think people overdo it with their compensatory explanations for why people feel the way they do about the game.

It's a simple (and sometimes intentional) heuristical error. People fallaciously approximate that Dark Souls 2 only seems like garbage because of how great the previous game is, leading to distorted conclusions like "Dark Souls 2 is great, just not a great Souls game."

This is similar to when people claim nostalgia is the only reason why people like certain games. Meta factors are given way too much weight and overshadow actually judging the game on its merits. It's really annoying. (Yes, I'm aware I've gone meta in order to attack the excessive focus on meta factors which lazily dismisses negative opinions).

In reality, it's very easy to understand the reasons why people dislike it:

- The gameplay mechanics are severely downgraded
- The gameplay mechanics are tied to a stat, even though this is primarily an action game
- The world design is nonexistent. People keep bringing up this commonly cited example because it's just egregious: you can take an 'up' elevator from the top of a high tower and reach an underground castle with a moat made of lava.
- Enemy encounter design is extremely repetitive and not at all thought through.
- Cheap enemy AI that perfectly tracks you, has literally unlimited stamina, inconsistent attack recovery time and unlimited poise
- Awful hitboxes
- Wonky "physics." Getting hit by a giant with a sword in Heide's tower of flame doesn't even knock you down; it just makes you flinch.

To many, this is a series about exploration, clever map design, deliberate enemy placement and precise gameplay and combat. Dark Souls II botches all of those things. I say this without even touching upon subjective things like having memorable bosses and lore.

I get that some people are OK with all of the above because they put a higher priority on other things, but it really isn't shocking or hyperbolic when people who dislike the game talk about it.

Excellent post.

I would add two things:
- lazy over abundance of bosses with multiple targets.
- too many bonfires.

Both stemming from a fundamental misunderstanding by the director of DS2 of what made DS1 good.

All of DS2's obvious issues are brilliantly broken down in the following video:
https://youtu.be/UScsme8didI?t=2m44s

One of my favorite summaries of the lazy "more enemies is harder so it must be better" approach to boss design from the vid:

...the main challenge in most of these fights is not losing your cool and doing something risky before the end. So really, the reason half of these fights are any difficult at all is because they're so boring you want them to end slightly quicker by seeing if you can maybe get a second attack off before rolling away again.

 

[zma1013]

Empty hyperbole. That one area gets so much attention because it is an exception, rather than the rule.

Unfortunately it's not an exception, that sort of impossible map connection is rather common all throughout the game, it's just that's the easy example to cite. Anyone with any sense of direction in a 3 dimensional space will notice this when going from one area to another and how maps will impossibly wrap back around upon each other and how backgrounds for areas fail to acknowledge other areas existence quite often.

 

[ChetWilson]

Still the best Souls game, including Bloodborne.

Demon's and Dark 1 are unconditionally praised way to much.

Having just replayed Demon Soul's, the praise is fully justified.

DeS is BeSt

 

[borborygmus]

Entirely untrue, certainly by my understanding of the actual meaning of "mechanics"in game design. Downgrade would imply simplification in terms of depth, complexity and functionality in the various systems of the game; whereas in actuality the opposite is true and easily demonstrable by a feature-set comparison.

There is a simplification in complexity, e.g. you can't aim roll attacks, among other things, some of which are nuances, but all of which are understandable complaints.

Its a RPG as much as anything else, and reading between the lines the reference seems specific to ADP, as I can't imagine the complaint being about STR, DEX etc.
Bottom line though, you should know what it does and why it matters in DS2's stat configuration, and how its correct usage nullifies many of the complaints about the combat system.

You're letting its classification as an RPG dictate the implementation. We've seen in the other Souls games, which are also RPGs (although, who cares about pigeonholing really), that classification as an RPG is not a prescriptive thing. It's a significant downgrade to turn what was once core gameplay into a number.

Empty hyperbole. That one area gets so much attention because it is an exception, rather than the rule.

No, it gets attention because it's the most memorable example. There are tons of other obnoxiously lazy cul-de-sacs and sloppily glued together areas which overlap with other map areas. Others in this thread have also mentioned things like shortcuts right next to bonfires. The world geometry clips in a lot of places, unlike Dark Souls 1.

SOTFS has more variety in combat design than DS by a very large margin.

I didn't complete the expansion, so I can't comment. You may well be right. It's horrid in the main game though.

None of which appear to faze speed-runners and other high-difficulty players. I see a lot of complaints listed, but none of the points raised are actually that problematic.

Sorry, but all I see is a litany of reasons for why the game isn't to your personal taste. Which is fine, but if none of the issues listed ever caused a person any issues during their time with the game, its hardly compelling, incisive critique.

More like nit-picks blown up to be elephantine problems in re-telling.

I don't think they're nitpicks. It depends on one's priorities. I find that the things that made DeS and DS enjoyable are subpar in DSII.

I did say that I get why some people like the game. But let's not pretend it's shocking that so many people have complaints about it. That's really the main point I'm trying to make. There's too much dismissiveness of negative opinions, with people trying to discount the criticisms by meta explanations, e.g. "They don't realize that DS2 great, only because DS1 is so great."

__

There is no underground castle in the game. The area with the castle sinking into the molten lava is on top of the mountain. You can see the sky when you're in that area. The reason why people keep mentiong this example is because when you're in Earthen Peak, the background mountain isnt close enough for it to look like the elevator going up to the mountain. Or people didnt really notice the mountain in the background.

I took a quick look in the model viewer and it seems you're right in theory.

But then it's really, really weird that it looks like this from the outside:

 

[firenskill2000]

My main issue so far is its just way too hard in the beginning. I feel so underpowered and I have made zero progress. After Majula I went to the Forest of Fallen Giants and after a while ran through to the castle area. I've been stuck there since. Maybe I need to restart with a new build but I've gotten to the point where I'm ready to quit and I really don't want to. I found DS1 to be light years easier. BB was tough for me at first but I was able to get the hang of it a lot quicker.

 

[NEO0MJ]

But then it's really, really weird that it looks like this from the outside:

Blame that on From Rushing the team to put the game out and allow enough time between its release and Bloodborne. It's not like the tea denied having to cobble the game together in the end due to deadlines.

 

[Clear]

There is a simplification in complexity, e.g. you can't aim roll attacks, among other things, some of which are nuances, but all of which are understandable complaints.

Powerstancing, wider variety in weapons, far better balance in magics, durability actually meaning something, integration of the torch/lighting conditions into AI behaviour, yadada....

More than enough to compensate.

Bottom line, DS2 has more stats and better granularity of control at a systemic level.

 

[ChetWilson]

Unfortunately it's not an exception

The other offender is being a few feet above water at sea-side Heidi's Tower, and then taking an elevator 100ft down to sea-side No Man's Wharf.

I feel so underpowered and I have made zero progress. After Majula I went to the Forest of Fallen Giants and after a while ran through to the castle area. I've been stuck there since. .

If you are a melee, the big 'booster' at the start is the Flame Longsword which is gettable after the 2nd fire in Forest (the one with the hag). With that you should be able to pick a bonfire, and farm up around it.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Both games control like shit, but yeah, Dark Souls 2 is worse.

 

[borborygmus]

Blame that on From Rushing the team to put the game out and allow enough time between its release and Bloodborne. It's not like the tea denied having to cobble the game together in the end due to deadlines.

Yeah, I know. It doesn't make the problem any better though.

Powerstancing, wider variety in weapons, far better balance in magics, durability actually meaning something, integration of the torch/lighting conditions into AI behaviour, yadada....

More than enough to compensate.

Bottom line, DS2 has more stats and better granularity of control at a systemic level.

Powerstancing: OK.
Wider variety in weapons: highly debatable. In PvE there's usually a best-in-class for your build which makes most other weapons obsolete; boss soul weapons were mostly trash. For PvP, I've heard both sides.
Magic: I read that it was nerfed to hell in SOTFS. I haven't verified this.
Torch: The torch is really simplistic compared to what was previewed, and barely gets any use in the game.
Durability: meh.

The fundamentals are far more important to me than the above, and I think they got them wrong. Again, I'm not saying you're supposed to like the game, just that it's easy to see why many don't.

 

[Dimmle]

I really dig the way space works in DSII.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Yeah, I know. It doesn't make the problem any better though.

True, but it does make it more understandable.

Magic: I read that it was nerfed to hell in SOTFS. I haven't verified this.

I think it was mostly just miracles. They lowered the number of times you could use Lightning Spears.

 

[Quicknock]

Sorry, but all I see is a litany of reasons for why the game isn't to your personal taste. Which is fine, but if none of the issues listed ever caused a person any issues during their time with the game, its hardly compelling, incisive critique.

More like nit-picks blown up to be elephantine problems in re-telling.

Pretty much where I stand with regards to DSII's criticism.

That plus lots of folks who refuse to adapt and try to play it like other games in the series when it is clearly its own game. Once you get used to the way DSII handles things, it plays quite well. Best of the series mechanically (Bloodborne aside), and unquestionably has the greatest variety of sheer stuff. I quite enjoy it.

It probably helps that I play it with reshade and all the prettiness that entails. I love the aesthetic.

I think it was mostly just miracles. They lowered the number of times you could use Lightning Spears.

They also nerfed hexes considerably.

It was a very deserved nerf.

 

[bob_arctor]

Both games control like shit, but yeah, Dark Souls 2 is worse.

This is it. We've reached the point where DS2 criticism is more like non-sensical babbling. Nothing more can be said that hasn't already been vomited out. Over and over. If these threads had an Adaptability stat, it'd be forever at zero. Slow and laborious, unable to cover any new ground.

 

[playXray]

I agree with OP about everything he said. And I actually like DkS2. Just not as much as the other Soulsborne games.

My biggest gripe was Adaptability.

I think a lot of people feel the same. I guess the more extreme opinions get the most attention (I posted a very mild criticism of the game in my LTTP/RTTP post and only got a single reply!) but they're only a minority. Most of the Souls fans I know still really enjoyed DS2, but I think all of them agree that it was a step down for the series.

I think one of my biggest gripes in hindsight is that the world itself has very little appeal for me. I loved exploring the worlds of DeS, DS and BB and have replayed them all several times, but I'm pretty sure I won't go back to DS2 for another play-through.

 

[Orochinagis]

I think I missed most of the discussion but yeah, the gameplay is better, the movement and weapons response is weird since it was locked into the adaptability stat

 

[Neff]

Having just replayed Demon Soul's, the praise is fully justified.

DeS is BeSt

It's a great game for sure, but there's some parts I really don't enjoy going through on repeat plays, and Dark I has weaker spots still.

DSII and Bloodborne though I have zero issues with. Love them.

 

[Silent Chief]

Another one of those, "I just started a new game and I don't understand the character progression mechanics, so I'll just put all my points in a couple of stats I like and whine on GAF that it plays like crap."

In games in which you level, if your character controls poorly there might be as stat that controls that and it's likely the one in which you haven't put any points.

That's like the shooting in Fallout. Or even how vehicles controls in Hardware Rivals.

 

[Already Torn]

The worst two parts of the game are the movement system and how terrible the lore is. The level design is bad as well, but this is somewhat mitigated by the DLC which is layed out well. The DLC still has awful lore though. It's not a good game, but it's tolerable if you play it a long time after playing other Souls games, or if you played it first I guess. I think it might be enjoyable if you love PvP, but I don't think Souls games are really well suited for competition so that's weird to me.

Honestly the worst thing about Dark Souls 2 is the lack of proper "you got hit" animations.

I understand part of it was so that you can still attack immediately after being attacked (or roll, block, etc.) but the lack of any FEEDBACK that you've been hit usually causes me to not notice for a second or two in the heat of battle and make a poor choice as a result.

Once I noticed it (after it feeling so 'off' for the first couple of hours) I was better able to manage it but its by far the worst choice of the game and I say this as someone who ADORES DS2.

Bloodborne imo nailed the hit detection with the ability to quickly react after getting hit.

This is an excellent point as well. Really adds to the feeling that nothing matters.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The idea of power stancing is pretty dumb imo. It would have been much better if you could raise so stat high enough to make blocking with an off hand weapon or bucker more effective in some way. Like having a soft parry when just blocking instead of just having the active parry with a crit. Dual wielding would make more sense overall in a game with a directional block system like mount and blade where the direction of the attack is relevant to blocking. If you want a weapon with a power attack use a halberd or poleaxe.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Power stancing is a cool idea that was poorly implemented on DSII and then vastly improved on the new trick weapons system seen on BB.

They also nerfed hexes considerably.

It was a very deserved nerf.

Not sure if I really liked the nerf, Hexes are totally shit on SOFTS DLC areas, like totally useless. I had to make a weapon and stop using Hexes altogether to beat the bosses.

 

[firenskill2000]

The other offender is being a few feet above water at sea-side Heidi's Tower, and then taking an elevator 100ft down to sea-side No Man's Wharf.



If you are a melee, the big 'booster' at the start is the Flame Longsword which is gettable after the 2nd fire in Forest (the one with the hag). With that you should be able to pick a bonfire, and farm up around it.

I may have to backtrack and look for this. I got to the first bonfire at the stream and then there is a ladder that leads to a castle area. Is there another way to go from that first bonfire?

 

[Nocturnowl]

I still enjoy DS2 but that was a fun OP (slamming of No Man's Wharf aside, that area is great along with its follow up).

There's something mechanically uncanny with Dark Souls 2 that I find hard to place, it's like a number of small niggles that stack up on top of one another.
Obviously you've got the stranger movement/feedback and that's before even tackling the whole adaptability angle. Throw in some dubious hitboxes on all fronts, less flowing animations and both the enemy and player poise factor being something of a clusterfuck and you've got yourself a sloppier stew brewing than the other entries.

Mind you I've noticed that some of my friends who still dig DS2 quite a lot and prefer it to say Bloodborne are the types more invested in the build making/RPG side of things and I figure now that this is where the strength of DS2 lies, in its sheer amount of options and content to make it the most experimental entry I suppose? I'm more mechanically inclined so while enjoyable I find it noticeable lesser, but in any case I can kind of see its merits even when I roll out of the way of a boss's grab attack only to magically teleport back into their grasp because FUCK YOU!

 

[cyba89]

I bought the game in the recent Winter Sale and played as far as the OP and can agree with a lot of his points. I also quitted the game during that pirate area. I will get back to it later and hope later areas are a lot more interesting designed than those first three.

 

[DedValve]

Power stancing is a cool idea that was poorly implemented on DSII and then vastly improved on the new trick weapons system seen on BB.



Not sure if I really liked the nerf, Hexes are totally shit on SOFTS DLC areas, like totally useless. I had to make a weapon and stop using Hexes altogether to beat the bosses.

Really? The dlc was tough but I stuck with a hex build till the very end. I used a dragon twinrider blade then upgraded to that dark axe (I forget which boss drops it but its special move is releasing a really shitty dark blast) and I do a fuck ton of damage with a buffed weapon and some dark orbs.

I feel like a god when I go in with my dark buffed weapon, with dark orb and a dark greatsword ready to strike at a moments notice then if I need breathing room go with some resonant souls which come out really fast.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The same thing happens in Dark Souls 1

Shhhh

Your rant pleases me. Also.

This comic is dumb. It's whining that you can't circle-strafe cheese-BS everything anymore.

People defending this game as a good Souls game don't get what makes a Souls game actually good. Now come at me, bros.

Nice bait. Not falling for it.

The main issue is where NMW is placed in the game, timeline wise, compared to everything else.

If you take a look at Blighttown, by that time, a typical player has more than likely rung one bell, beat 5ish bosses, has at least a decent set of gear with some upgrades, has experienced a ton of of "cheap" ambushes, and has been playing ENOUGH to learn most of the mechanics of the game by that point. He has learned that stuff can come out of nowhere, that he can be swarmed, but he has the tools necessary to deal with those issues.

If you look at NMW, it's possible a typical player hasn't even gone to forest of the giants, went through Heidi's tower of flame where you have 1 at a time fights with slow giants, and has just beaten dragonrider. Now comparing NMW to blighttown, there are so many more cheap ambushes. Literraly 50% of the encounters in NMW are more than you bargained for. Try and attack the first dog? Corpse arises behind you. Charge the first archer, 1 viking comes behind you, 1 is shooting you from a ledge, and 1 comes out of the water. Charge one the 2nd houses? All 5 mobs come out and attack you. Go up the stiars? Some viking jumps down on you. Go past the stairs, you get swarmed by 4 dogs, get covered in black oil, and a fire archer is going ape on you.

EVERY ENCOUNTER IN NMW IS LIKE THIS.

Sure, in the ideal setup, someone beat forest, has some gear, preferably the flame longsword and some armor. But still, Blighttown is the product after a long buildup of teaching you to play. NMW is literally a baptism by fire for anyone new to the series.

Except that plenty of players pick the master key and find Blighttown right away, too.

Oops but that doesn't count, right? Amazing how people just don't realize 90% of their criticism can be applied to the other games. The wilful ignorance and confirmation bias going on in these threads is just really spectacular.

Are you saying a difficult area shouldn't be accessible early in the game? If so, there are some skeletons from DS1 who would like a word with you. Seriously, both Souls game teach you to try another route if you are having trouble, how is NMW any different?

NMW is in a game with less Miyazaki.

Oh, look, it's the weekly "Let's all pile in on DS2" thread. I'm just amazed nobody's linked to that Matthewmatosis video yet.

Sure, the game had flaws. It's not quite as good as its predecessor. But it's still a very, very good game, and I'm still finding it thoroughly enjoyable after plugging ~200 hours into it. If someone tells me with a straight face that DS2 is a "bad game", I'm just going to assume they haven't, in fact, played any games that are actually bad.

Also, some of the things people find to complain about are downright weird.

"The transition from Earthen Peak to Iron Keep made no sense!"

No, it didn't, and it could (and should) have been executed better. But did it really ruin your enjoyment of the game? If so, I'm assuming you were similarly outraged when you first got to Darkroot and discovered it had magically become night-time. Or when you saw New Londo clearly visible from Firelink, but when you actually got down there it was apparently underground.

"Something something enemy placement! The game throws hordes of mobs at you!"

Yeah, it's terrible. DS1 would never.
Oh, wait, I just played through Undead Burg again (you know, the starting area for most players) and there were several spots where the game gangbanged me. People seem to have this weird case of false memory syndrome where they think DS1 and Demon's were just a series of duels where the player never had to worry about facing multiple opponents at once. And even the most commonly bitched-about instance of this in DS2, the knights in Lost Bastille, can be managed easily if you take things slowly by drawing the enemies one or two at a time instead of rushing in with all guns blazing.

"Reused enemies! Humanoid bosses in armour! Worst game ever!"

DS1 reused the Asylum Demon like three times. And Lost Izalith literally had a field full of Taurus and Capra Demons. Yet this is apparently acceptable because it was only one area and the rest of the game was so well designed. Also, I'm sure I once saw somebody provide a list of all the bosses from each game, and the ratio of dudes in armour wasn't actually much higher in DS2 (I can't remember which thread it was in, because these DS2 hate threads all seem to run together after a while).

Good post. And yeah the humanoid ratio comparison was by me. Can't be arsed to dig the link right now, because I know people just ignore it anyway.

Ambushes exist all over souls game. NMW ambushes are not cheap at all, you can see them coming if you take it slowly and are careful. If you rush yeah no shit you will get ambushed.

Aye. One of the reasons I'm so fond of NMW was because of my first playthrough.

First, the area had really cool visuals and a great atmosphere, so that's always a plus. But mostly, I went very slowly, very carefully, as an experienced Souls player should. I explored every nook and cranny and was often delighted to find something useful. I had very few Estus then, and survived on lifegems and the HP regeneration ring, since I was exploring slowly it made a big difference. I even used throwing knives and crossbow bolts to kite those asshole bleed monsters because they scared me.

This was pre-Scholar so there was hardly any shortcut (the one near Lucatiel's sign only). Did the whole thing without dying. Then I found the boss and dreaded going in, carrying so many souls, weapon durability getting a bit low, still had some Estus left but barely any lifegems. But I braved the fog and went in. The boss ended up being relatively easy, but I still had to be careful. When I beat the boss and later arrived at the Bastille (with some trepidation as I wasn't sure where the next bonfire would be), it was so rewarding and satisfying to have done the whole thing first try without dying.

This was just the purest Souls experience. Go in methodically, take your time, explore, defeat enemies slowly but as safely as possible, and get rewarded by good items, a satisfying victory and opening up a whole new place after (with a cool little moonlit boat trip).

Should be interesting to see how people rate them once DS3 is out.

Miyazaki is back at the helm, so DS3 is safe. Any flaws it will have will be glossed over.

Yeah, I feel we're just going in circles now.

Call me crazy but I rather like the Iron Passage. Isn't it what Souls fans wanted, making going to the boss a challenge instead of a 3 minute jog?

Nah, the problem with the Iron Passage is that it's legit cheap. If you don't have a good bow, you are really, really screwed. Not just ranged options, it has to be a bow with poison arrows, because your magic can get silenced by those asshole astrologers, and they also cast spells that reduce your movement speed (making you fatroll) so you can't even run past them either, and unless your bow is super strong you need the poison otherwise they'll heal themselves. And the ghost archers have tons of health, are immune to poison, and their weird bow attack animation is unpredictable and there's little room to maneuver.

It's basically a forced coop area, which I don't really care for.

Wider variety in weapons: highly debatable. In PvE there's usually a best-in-class for your build which makes most other weapons obsolete; boss soul weapons were mostly trash. For PvP, I've heard both sides.

Um... what. They are leagues better than the boss soul weapons in Dark Souls. Like, every single boss soul weapon in Dark Souls was useless crap except the Chaos Blade. At least DS2 had several good ones, and the boss soul trading was far less annoying too.

Besides, there is nothing debatable about the variety of weapon, DS2 blows away the rest. Even if some are just mild variants of another with special attributes (like dark damage/infusion, poison, low/high stat requirements/scaling/etc. which can be nice depending on your build, special L2 attack/action when 2h, etc.), that's already more than Dark Souls had. But even not counting that, the existence of lances, twinblades, and the fact that whips and fists/claws are now viable already give it the edge.

Magic: I read that it was nerfed to hell in SOTFS. I haven't verified this.

You read wrong. Spells are the same as in vanilla. A patch, applied to both games, did nerf some miracles, but that's it. A yet previous patch had slightly nerfed hexes, but they're still very powerful.

Torch: The torch is really simplistic compared to what was previewed, and barely gets any use in the game.

Play Scholar. It's more useful than ever. Its use actually affects some enemies AI now.

Edit:

Power stancing is a cool idea that was poorly implemented on DSII and then vastly improved on the new trick weapons system seen on BB.

Not sure if I really liked the nerf, Hexes are totally shit on SOFTS DLC areas, like totally useless. I had to make a weapon and stop using Hexes altogether to beat the bosses.

What.
I'm using hexes on one of my character and she's kicking ass. I have no idea what you're talking about.

And the trick weapon didn't "improve" anything with regards to dual wielding. Only a couple of trick weapons have a dual-wield mode and it's very simplified.

 

[Moon_frogger]

this game has problems but you are being way over dramatic in your assessment of the combat. It's still got better melee combat than 99 percent of games. Once I got used to the changes I quite liked it, especially the PVP which was a huge step up in terms of variety and lack of backstab fishing like dark souls 1.

 

[eot]

Still the best Souls game, including Bloodborne.

Demon's and Dark 1 are unconditionally praised way to much.

To each their own. I just can't understand why anyone would think that. It is beyond my comprehension.

To finish, here's some of that good DS2 enemy tracking, feat. Havel-clone.
https://fat.gfycat.com/YellowPointedFlycatcher.webm
https://fat.gfycat.com/GrandTheseBedlingtonterrier.webm

Yes, that's Havel cancelling out of his attack before it ends and almost seamlessly starting another attack before I've even finished rolling.

Dark Souls 2 is a great game but it has a lot of unfortunate rough edges that detract from the experience.

It's not an attack that hits twice? It looks weird though I agree.

I was just showing a video of the 180 tracking jump, it wasn't meant as a carbon copy. The funny thing is Havel has an attack that has remarkable tracking that can 1 shot kill you, but the animation looks better than a lot of the Dark Souls 2 animations so people don't notice it as much.

Really? Dark Souls has a degree of tracking, but the difference is that it tends to be only during the windup. That's why you can avoid so many attacks by cricle strafing, and why backstabbing is so powerful. In Dark Souls II enemies track through the swing as well. I guess I'll have to go fight Havel again to see it. Never had much trouble dodging out of the way of his swings though. It doesn't feel cheap. In Dark Souls II I notice it because it does feel cheap.