RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
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Mad Men - Season 7, Part 2 - The End of an Era - AMC Sundays
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
lol
metalslimer
Member
I think these episodes have been good, but I have to agree that it feels really disconnected. I understand that the firm has pretty much reached its final state, but it seems like the evolution of the firm has been such a big part of the show that them kind of all just being comfortable is weird. I think people were expecting more conflict outside of Don's internal conflict.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
I was about to write that you guys are on to something here AlphaSnake and Pillville
But after a careful viewing of the elevator scene, Dianna's presence is acknowledged by all parties (Don, Arnold and Sylvia)
Don actually introduces her to the couple, Sylvia even looks at her and says "Hello" so.. there's that, to top it off, while exiting the elevator, Sylvia says goodnight and again, quickly glances over to Dianna, when Arnold exits and makes that wise crack to Don about .."If you still have the energy (for Squash)" with his beady, drunken eyes, he looks over to Dianna (who's off screen) to see if he gets her approval (laugh) for the wise crack.
So Dianna seems to be very much a real person (presence) in this sequence.
As for Arnold's line "bring the whole restaurant with you?"
This one's quite simple; in a classic, subtle Mad Men fashion....
in the elevator scene we do not see Don or Dianna holding anything except their coats, but the next time we see them again, in Don's apartment, Dianna is emptying out food/receipts?! from a huge, greasy, take out paper bag on the dinning table...(only until at this scene) It's quite evident to us the audience that they got take out from Dianna's restaurant after her shift ended etc.
So when drunken Arnold walks into the elevator, he sees 1) a woman next to Don dressed as a waiter 2) sees and also, most likely smells a greasy, take out bag that Don is holding. He puts the two and two together, so hence..."bring the whole restaurant with you?" comment.
Also: A self bragging disclaimer! As soon as I saw the first shot of Don's apartment totally emptied out by the movers while Marie was still there, I totally pictured the episode ending with Don walking in and looking dumbfounded by the empty space.... To be perfectly honest, I pictured him sitting in the corner of the room on a marble step or something, hunched over and looking defeated, rather than standing in the middle of the room with arms out! Still, I like guessing the visual language of this show, (even when I am wrong) it has a very distinct feel, especially in the Ep closing shots.
BertramCooper
Banned
Mad Style is an awesome, useful feature. Tom & Lorenzo's reviews of the Mad Men episodes, however, are pretty bad. I've never enjoyed them or found them nearly as insightful as Mad Style.
I'm perplexed by how people have reacted to these first two episodes. First of all, it's two of seven, which means we still have five episodes to see where some of this stuff is going. Mad Men always takes its time with this stuff.
Second, I really don't know how people who have been watching this show for eight years were expecting it to end. Don isn't facing imminent death (probably). There's no final confrontation or ultimate mystery to be solved. Matthew Weiner was never going to approach these final episodes as a checklist of things to be wrapped up before it all ends.
There's a good chance we'll leave this series as casually as we entered it. The story was well underway by the time we boarded, and it's going to continue when we get off.
BertramCooper
Banned
Maybe slightly, but not dramatically so. I think it being essentially a condensed season made it seem a bit faster than a normal 13 ep season.
It's pretty normal for Mad Men to have eps like this early in a season. Perhaps people are just getting anxious because there are so few episodes left.
snoopeasystreet
Member
lol at people thinking Diana is a ghost. She's a real nothing-character that Don projects his initial feelings about Rachel, Megan and Sylvia onto. Here scenes are weird and dream like because Don is trying to use her to replace his mistakes of the past. She's happy to do it because at least she isn't thinking about her daughter but in the last scene she reveals that she can't leave her own past behind the way Don wants to and breaks up with him.
Yeah I think the end of last nights episode, with Don standing in an empty apartment, made sense of the whole Diana thing for me. He's coming to terms with the same thing Diana is, he pushes away everything he wants because deep down he doesn't think he deserves it.
It's really hard to even suggest what will happen in these last episodes because anything too monumental would feel so out of character for the show, in a lot of ways even Don realising his mistakes or fixing his life would feel like too much movement. I feel like the biggest answer I personally hope to get is just that the writers showing us what exactly it is that Don wanted all this time, was it just a family? Or maybe was it to be able to be Richard Whitman? I have no clue.
It's really hard to even suggest what will happen in these last episodes because anything too monumental would feel so out of character for the show, in a lot of ways even Don realising his mistakes or fixing his life would feel like too much movement. I feel like the biggest answer I personally hope to get is just that the writers showing us what exactly it is that Don wanted all this time, was it just a family? Or maybe was it to be able to be Richard Whitman? I have no clue.
What if this is part of the St. Elsewhere universe?
ClivePwned
Member
There will be overturned cars and looting along Madison Avenue
agreed. I've never had much problems with their reviews though, but this one really stood out for me. I guess thet behaved (unknowingly) a bit like Megan during this episode: how dare this show do what it wants to do instead of what I want it to do? UNACCEPTABLE.
But, on the other hand, I kinda get it. The frustration that stems from the show's cyclical nature that is both diegetic and non-diegetic (e.g. "a story about people making the same fucking mistakes every time whether because they want to or they can't help it, it's also about you watching a show that repeats itself"). The repetition can get tiring, I get it, but I think the richness of the show comes from the fact that it's basically a variation of certain themes at this point.
Because -and again, correct me if I'm wrong- I think the show kinda changed in its approach after S4. Maybe during S4. I have this feeling that it was (or people considered it) this soap opera-ish show about the life of a 60s ad man and a period piece, but at least after S4 it clearly was more of a novel in visual form about death, rebirth and cycles (among other things). It became bolder, more ambitious. I wouldn't say better but it feels to me that the earlier seasons had something different.
I think Diana's confusing identity or nature or even her presentation are more of a stylistic choice than a narrative one. Inasmuch as she is more of a cypher, a symbol, a mirror in which Don can (again) reexamine his own life and own up to his past instead of an actual ghost/time traveler/parallel dimension version of Don or whatever kinda crazy theory some people have now. The scenes she's in feel oniric and fragmented because they're supposed to feel that way, we're looking at it from Don's perspective - we've done this stuff so many times before than we actually don't know if we have actually done this before or just feeling like it. We don't know if she's from his actual past or just reminds her some of someone (none of them in particular, all or most of them in general). It feels like we're trapped in that same fucking cycle as Don - it's not that time is actually fragmented and things are coming apart. Just our perception.
And the thing about Diana is that she starts as a nothing character/a symbol ("hey, you remind me of Rachel!") and then becomes her own character with a similar backstory to Don - misery loves company. Don feels attracted to her because he seems to recognize a kindred spirit. And the show appears to show us that, yes, it seems it could work.
Then, of course, it doesn't - and the show also showed us that during the entire episode. Every time Don wanted to please Diana by giving her something ("hey, come to my place" - "I can't, I'm at work." / "well, I'll go there then" - "maybe i'll go there instead" / "want a drink?" - "no, I'm already drunk" and so on) she rejected him. The "twinge in the chest" line is especially significant because it ties with Don's speech about nostalgia in "The Wheel". And when she finally rejects him, everything becomes clear: that twinge was, actually, nostalgia. The pain from an old wound. Starting a relationship with Don (Mr. "let's forget the past and start anew over and over and over") would mean consciously forgetting a past she didn't want to forget.
Don thought he had found a kindred spirit. Instead he found someone that did what he should've done in the first place, a long time ago - own up to his past mistakes. But now that he tried so much to forget his own past and start anew, he finds that he can't because his past has definitely caught with him.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Lou is certainly out.
I assume Cutler took the money and retired (or was just not hired on). It's more money than he's ever seen, presumably (as CGC wasn't a dynasty company like Sterling Cooper was) and he was old. Dude hit the jackpot.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I *do* expect some big plot stuff to be coming. But what I think this episode (and the last one) have set up is that Don was right about McCann-- it's just a grinder, a boring job. Everyone has money, business is really good, nobody's sweating landing or losing a big account-- they are all going through the motions. Add to that Don's being trapped in a cycle of his own making (even his love interests seem like re-runs) and I think that's a very intentional thing. And I think it's leading up to something, probably something bad, for Don.
I'm excited, but that's because I always read lulls like this in Mad Men as the calm before a storm. So far, I've been right.
I'm excited, but that's because I always read lulls like this in Mad Men as the calm before a storm. So far, I've been right.
backflip10019
Member
Good lord, I just can't find it in me to care about Don's relationship with this new woman.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Then Henry walks in!
Pretty sure that's how Don felt too
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
My interpretation of her oscillates wildly, but she seems like a projection of every past woman in Don's life - a manifestation of the past, mostly a manifestation of regrets. She's not really a character in her own right. Which makes her somewhat frustrating but also understandable as there is no time for fully fleshed out new characters. The way that her and Don are completely at odds (in particular the 'are you hungry?' line which is so clumsy for Don) seems to be some kind of reflection (that Don is oblivious to) on the perils of trying to recapture those pasts.
backflip10019
Member
That's a great theory. I think it also extends to how she looks. I don't think it's unintentional that they casted someone for the part who looks very similar to his first fling in season 1 (can't remember her name -- the hippie girl). When Don surprised her in the restaurant, I had to do a double take to make sure it was the new character, and not the girl from season 1.
WyndhamPrice
Member
I've enjoyed the past two episodes from this season but I've also been getting a surreal kind of Twin Peaks-y vibe, especially from this last one.
Maybe it was the Pima (Peema?) scenes with the saxophones playing in the background. Lots of weird musical juxtapositions with uncomfortable/dark situations going on.
Maybe it was the Pima (Peema?) scenes with the saxophones playing in the background. Lots of weird musical juxtapositions with uncomfortable/dark situations going on.
Seriously, had some feels there. The life Don can never return to.
My favorite scene in such a long time.
lastflowers
Banned
What if Dianna is just a blow-up doll that don made after his first encounter with the waitress? Everything is just in his head. Sylvia thinks he is nuts. Arnold's worrying about his friend. Don rents out some shitty apartment to make out with his blow-up doll.
Matt Weiner is actually insane.
Wait, I got it! This is a Shallow Hal sorta thing, only Don perceives himself as skinny when in reality he's morbidly obese! Hence why the doc says he 'brought the whole restaurant home' and the whole 'if you have enough energy'!
I see you Weiner, in contrast to Don not being able to see his.
I see you Weiner, in contrast to Don not being able to see his.
lastflowers
Banned
ah, you're right!
snoopeasystreet
Member
The final scene should be Don falling off the Sterling Cooper building, then just before he hits the ground, he discovers he can fly and superman's himself into space.
CharminUltra
Member
I've really enjoyed these last two episodes.
Will we segway into a powers prequel from there?
Wasn't there lots of speculation early on that Don would jump of a building, like in the intro in the final episode?
It's pretty obvious that she was used as a tool to showcase what Don has done his entire life- escapism via women and lies- only she chooses not to take that path, which awakens Don to his actions.
...but at the same time, what is she's...what if she's a gh-gh-gh-GHOST!
2spooky4me
Mr. Saturn
Member
None of that is supernatural I don't think?. Two of them were hallucinations, and one was a dream.
Even if Diana was a figment of Don's imagination, which I really doubt, it would be obvious. When Don saw Anna in the suitcase, it was obvious it was a hallucination, same thing with Bert when he sang and dance, Bert had already passed so we immediately knew it wasn't "real".
So the idea that Diana is a ghost/Don imagined her really doesn't hold up, but in a way I do wonder what the reaction would be if that were true. Anyway like I said, if Diana wasn't real it would be immediately obvious, it wouldn't be some big secret, at least it seems that way based on Don's previous visions/hallucinations which were all fairly obvious in what they were.
backflip10019
Member
Still waiting for Charlie Manson to kill Megan this season.
Who said Diana is supernatural? We're still talking about Don having hallucination.
I actually really doubt that is what's happening, but you can't say that they show doesn't do stuff like this, or that Don isn't becoming increasingly unstable.
Mr. Saturn
Member
Ah okay gotcha, yeah Diana being a hallucination I guess is more plausible then there being anything supernatural going on.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Or it's just surrealistic flourishes to the show itself, externalizing what Don is thinking/imagining.
There's nothing to suggest his vision of Anna or Bert caused him to think he was seeing things.
There's nothing to suggest his vision of Anna or Bert caused him to think he was seeing things.
brianjones
Member
don was dead the whole time
Mr. Saturn
Member
Right, I think that's true, I don't actually believe Dina's an hallucination, I'm not entirely sure where that notion came from, it just seemed slightly more plausible (because Don has had visions before, whereas there hasn't really been anything leaning toward the supernatural in the show) than anything supernatural going on, but do I think she's an hallucination? No, I don't and I suppose calling Don's other visions hallucinations as I did above isn't entirely accurate either though.
I think calling them surrealistic flourishes works best.
my thinking about the way Diana's scenes are set up is that she either represents death (low hanging fruit but would explain why she seems to be an expert on the subject and why Don is so familiar with her) or someone very close to Don dies or has died (not rachel, someone closer like Sally) and this half of the season is kind of out of whack because of it. I'm recalling the line where Diana tells Don how things get all mixed up when someone dies. my only real evidence is when Don tells Diana on the phone that he'll meet her at her work and then she shows up at Don's place. also I remember someone in this thread thinking that the most recent episode seemed to happen later than the date Don puts on the check to Megan..
I'm not really confident with that theory but it's interesting to think about
I'm not really confident with that theory but it's interesting to think about
Could just be bad writing. Her whole time on the show has been very abnormal. (only 2 episodes at this point)
She's a waitress that barely talks.
Don is totally fixated on her for some reason.
They almost seem to know each other.
She has sex with Don in an alley on her smoke break.
She changes jobs and Don somehow finds her.
She comes over at 3 in the morning and Don puts on a suit.
Odd elevator conversation with the neighbors.
She's hiding in the city from a bad rural home life (just like Don did).
Just started watching this season on Sunday, finished episode 5 tonight. I gotta say, I'm really disappointed in this season. And this was my favorite character piece on television. Now, the only characters I enjoy watching are Don, Roger, and Sally. They're the only ones who seem to have their heads (mostly) on straight.
Everyone else is throwing temper tantrums about the most inane crap. Peggy is lonely and hates Don because he fucked up her chance to ruin Ted's life (Why did they ruin Peggy's arc with that love triangle shit?). Joan is drunk on power and has turned on Don; you know, the only one at the agency who ever respected her as an equal. Megan's still stuck in fantasy land refusing to consider anyone's feelings but her own. And thank God we get another season of Betty competing with her own children for attention and authority and looking like the biggest child of all, as if enough screen time hadn't been devoted to that annoying storyline. Bonus: we get half an episode dedicated to her and that boy-shaped automaton they built to play Bobby.
Not feeling it, folks. Gonna finish it out, but I'm pretty glad this is the last season.
Everyone else is throwing temper tantrums about the most inane crap. Peggy is lonely and hates Don because he fucked up her chance to ruin Ted's life (Why did they ruin Peggy's arc with that love triangle shit?). Joan is drunk on power and has turned on Don; you know, the only one at the agency who ever respected her as an equal. Megan's still stuck in fantasy land refusing to consider anyone's feelings but her own. And thank God we get another season of Betty competing with her own children for attention and authority and looking like the biggest child of all, as if enough screen time hadn't been devoted to that annoying storyline. Bonus: we get half an episode dedicated to her and that boy-shaped automaton they built to play Bobby.
Not feeling it, folks. Gonna finish it out, but I'm pretty glad this is the last season.
I feel like people have really high expectations for this character and story line.
snoopeasystreet
Member
No. It'll reveal that Pete Campbell is actually Lex Luthor and Mad Men was actually the most grounded interpretation of Superman the world has ever seen.
People have been talking about the intro hinting toward the ending for a long long time now but like people confusing surreal scenes for supernatural ones, I think it's more setting the tone than it is foreshadowing.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I won't try to talk you out of your opinion, and I didn't love all of that as it was happening, but I believe it all makes sense in the big picture, especially Peggy and Joan.
Also, Don's respect of Joan is tainted by a pretty heavy Madonna/Whore thing he has going on with all women, and re-watching The Other Woman made that more apparent to me. Did he ever respect her after that?
I think that's more on her than it is on him. I don't recall any outright disrespect being shown by Don towards Joan after he realized she went through with it and slept with the Jaguar guy. It seemed more like she couldn't stand the thought that her friend was too late to stop her, and it tears her apart that she has to face him every day. Especially after he fired the client (in my opinion for the right reasons), and ultimately revealed himself to not be the All-American boy scout he pretended to be. But I thought the fact that she joined in to pile onto Don with the other partners was abrupt and uncharacteristic of Joan, and pretty much closed the doors on getting any payoff from her character development.
The message of the show, to me, is shaping up to be, "Don was right. Never show anyone who you really are, or you will lose everything." Which, uh, certainly is a message.
Somebody already stated this much better than I can but seeing hallucinations of people you love =/= supernatural.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I think it's on her as well, and her insecurity based on how she was promoted is a huge factor. I think your take on the message is wrong, but you'll have to keep watching to see why I think that.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
I don't think any of us used the word "supernatural" when trying to theorize that Diana could be just a figment of Don's imagination.
In fact, "figment of his imagination" is what we've been saying all along.
In fact, "figment of his imagination" is what we've been saying all along.