The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So I might be drafting RTR-GTC-DGM for the first time today, any good tips about the format?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: the GAFering |OT2|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
It's pretty slow, so your normal inclinations to avoid 6-7 drops can be curbed a bit, especially if you grab some mana rocks to go with your lands. I end most matches with like 8 - 10 mana available.
What? That seems odd for M14 not to have a cycle of 5 lands. Is this from the number crunch?
Edit:
Yeah, only 3 non basics. Wow. That's huge.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, stuff I'm reading online is suggesting I go slower. Hopefully I'll be able to build something good around either Orzhov or Gruul
narcosis219
Member
Regarding Notion Thief in response to Brainstorm effects:
The replacement effect only occurs on the "Draw 3 cards" portion, and the "then put 2 cards back" is unaffected? The most relevant rule I found was:
Since this references effects that operate on those drawn cards specifically, this doesn't apply? If instead Brainstorm said "Draw 3 cards, then put 2 amongst the 3 drawn back on top of your library." then the player who got thief'd would not have to put 2 cards back? L1 judge here argues that the replacement effect replaces the entire clause (which meant you don't have to put 2 back), but I don't think he's correct about this. Everyone who saw the SCG event where this happened seemed to accept that the brainstorming player had to throw 2 card back into their library.
The replacement effect only occurs on the "Draw 3 cards" portion, and the "then put 2 cards back" is unaffected? The most relevant rule I found was:
Comprehensive Rules said:
Since this references effects that operate on those drawn cards specifically, this doesn't apply? If instead Brainstorm said "Draw 3 cards, then put 2 amongst the 3 drawn back on top of your library." then the player who got thief'd would not have to put 2 cards back? L1 judge here argues that the replacement effect replaces the entire clause (which meant you don't have to put 2 back), but I don't think he's correct about this. Everyone who saw the SCG event where this happened seemed to accept that the brainstorming player had to throw 2 card back into their library.
This is actually a smart change re: Block Constructed. Ensures a 10 cycle is always available.
And yes, Notion Thiefing a Brainstorm effect is just as diabolical as you think. Brainstorm is "Do this, then do that." Something unaffected would be "Draw a card and reveal it, if it's a land card, discard it" pertaning to individual draws.
I would love for this to be true. Please be true.
Dat feel when you jump into a colour and leave your first picks and are greeted by amazing cards on the jumped colour every single pick from there on out. Dimir was open and god as my witness I drafted a brutal dimir! If this doesn't take me to finals I would be very sad.
And the second time the shuffler killed me with chain-mulligans. Thanks. This deck was too fucking awesome for this world.
I think I'll soon move to some TCG where luck doesn't dictate half of the fucking matches...
And the second time the shuffler killed me with chain-mulligans. Thanks. This deck was too fucking awesome for this world.
I think I'll soon move to some TCG where luck doesn't dictate half of the fucking matches...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Almost positive Explore works just how it used to: each one you play increments your land allotment by one.
That actually makes sense- Fetches, Shocks, and M10 lands would be too much, but just shocks and fetches would prevent easy 5 color decks.
I'm guessing Evolving Wilds, Aincent Ziggeraut, and Mutavault are the 3 non-basics
Nah, this happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd7cd-K8ImQ
You get buffed with more land drops per turn, and you can play up to your current maximum, and can't play if you have filled up/are above it. Rules makes much more sense now.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Hehehe. Modern decks only have shocks and fetches (for the most part), and people have no issues running 4-color decks off of the back of Deathrite Shaman.
If you pretend that all random outcomes during a match of Magic are predetermined, then before the match even starts you can know which player is favored to win. Your job during the course of the match is to make decisions and choose the lines of play that push those percentages in your favor - nothing more. If the match ends with a loss, but you made every decision correctly, you did your job correctly, and you should feel good about yourself. It's very similar to poker in that way. In poker, your job is to put your money on situations where you're favored to win. What happens after that is mostly irrelevant - sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. But if you always put your money on situations where you're favored, over the long run you will reap significant rewards.
Case in point: I vented a little bit yesterday about drafting a sweet Esper deck and losing to a nuts Boros deck in match one. In game one, I stabilized at 2 life and started building a Pack Rat army, but eventually was killed by a topdecked Skynight Legionnaire. What I didn't tell you was what happened on turn two.
My opening hand: Plains, Island, Swamp, Far // Away, Azorious Cluestone, Deputy of Acquittals, Runner's Bane.
Looking at this hand, I know I want to cast Away before the Runner's Bane (so as not to make the Away dead). I can Far // Away as early as turn 4 if necessary. And I have a Deputy to act as a trick in the late game; my deck isn't built to beat down, so Deputy is a late play in my mind.
I'm on the play, and open with Island. My opponent plays Mountain, Bellows Lizard. In my mind, Bellows Lizard is not a card. It's a bad, bad creature. It chews up mana to do anything relevant, maybe gets in for a few points of damage, but overall doesn't impact the game. In short, I don't respect it. I also don't believe (to my detriment) that it's possible to draft a deck as incredibly aggressive as what this player is ultimately going to present to me. I don't want to trade my Deputy with it; if I flash in Deputy as a combat trick and trade with Bellows Lizard, I've given up a combat trick that can be far more useful in the future just to get rid of what is likely the worst card in his deck.
So I play a Swamp and pass. Why did I play a Swamp? Because I convinced myself I wasn't ever going to play the Deputy, so the land didn't matter. But there were two lines I missed here: first, Bellows Lizard being on the table makes my Away much, much worse. Trading the Deputy is a bad use of Deputy, but makes the rest of my hand better. Also, by doing this, I gave up the chance for my opponent to make a mistake - which he does. He attacked before playing a land on his turn two. I could have taken out the Lizard for free, or potentially traded for a premium combat trick in his hand, if I had just played a Plains and passed. That could have had a huge impact on the rest of the game. But even in the worst case scenario, where all that did was save some damage from the Bellows Lizard for a turn, that's one extra life I would have gained, which would have been one more draw step at the end of the game.
That decision, which seemed meaningless at the time, likely would have given me 1-2% more chance to win that game, which would have given me a significantly greater chance of winning the entire match. Regardless of which way I play it, I'm still likely getting my head caved in by his insane aggro deck. But I gave up some small percent chance to win that match, and I can't blame luck for that. I can only blame myself.
In any given match of Magic, variance can have an immense impact on the outcome of the match. But over time, the player who consistently makes good decisions gets rewarded for them. That's why I often tell people who can only play one or two drafts a week to just play Swiss. You're never going to go infinite playing Swiss, but you're guaranteed to get to play 3 matches of Magic. You'll learn what strategies work and don't work; maybe you drafted a great deck and got screwed in round one, or maybe your deck actually wasn't as good as you thought. You'll also get more practice in and be able to learn a little bit more about the draft format. 8-4s make it difficult to understand "why" you lost, but reward you bigger for when you do win.
8-4s are also naturally more variant than Swiss; they're the favorite of MTGO grinders because of the payout structure, but it only benefits them to play 8-4s because they draft multiple times a day. This means that their variance cycles are much more compressed; if they run bad for three drafts in a row, it doesn't matter that much because they just jump back the next day and see the pendulum swing back in their favor again. If you only draft once a week, running bad three drafts in a row can ruin the experience for three straight weeks. You're much more likely to enjoy your time playing the game if you're playing Swiss.
That's also why I almost never play Limited outside of release events these days. I mostly play Constructed, because I love picking up a deck, learning how it works, and mastering the decision trees the deck presents me. Limited is an entirely different skill to develop - I enjoy drafting because of how much of a different thing it is, but I don't study it and try to master it in the same way that many people out there do.
That's a fine price given the foil in every pack thing. Set is good, but expectations were too high.
Can't imagine foils will be anywhere close to the amount they normally fetch though. The set would be much better if they didn't bump the rarities up for many cards or even just set rare as the ceiling. Goyfs plummeting might annoy some people but it'd surely help the format.
I think this is a set you move early, because there's a second wave coming. The money I had budgeted to pick up Goyfs (possibly the only Modern card I'll really need after I cash in some stuff for credit with SCG.) I'm actually using on a pair of U. Seas I'm getting from my buddy since I think I can wait a bit on new-frame Goyfs while the market calms down.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Speaking of luck, I had the absolute worst luck ever tonight. I usually either go 2-1, 3-1.
0-4 tonight. Shit, I even lost the just for fun games. Just not my night. Oy.
0-4 tonight. Shit, I even lost the just for fun games. Just not my night. Oy.
Yeah I don't usually rage, but losing to having NO MANA instead of having wrong mana is something you cannot control. And you lose money because of that factor.
I think this deck is solid!
And I lose to a fucking pack rat turn 2...
First game I flood with 11 lands and 4 cards. Lose to a shitty deck that has nothing but a pack rat. (almost won with those 4 cards)
Second game I beat him like he never played magic (he had pack rat, but I went first so I had a change of killing it)
Third game he goes first. Pack rat turn 2, my only removal is "loss" and even my perfectly fine hand with collective blessing can't do shit to the most broken card ever.
I'm a little upset.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Sure. You weren't supposed to win that match, and you can't control that. Everybody loses matches to factors they can't control; the goal of the game is just to make sure that you take every percentage point the game gives you and win every single game that you're supposed to win.
Hell, Jon Finkel, arguably the greatest player of all time, has a lifetime win rate of what - 65% in DCI tournaments? And that's considered really good.
But feel free to rage at Pack Rat.
It's absolutely one of the most miserable cards ever printed for Limited, and is a huge black mark on this format.Then again doesn't WoW TCG have a system where you transmute any cards to "mana"? That completely negates the "dead hand" issue.
But feel free to rage at Pack Rat.
It's especially bad when it's in a god awful deck and you can only watch as your world burns.
Like I had profit/loss and collective blessing combo. It still wasn't even close.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Kirblar is our local expert on game design, but I believe there's substantial evidence that the variance caused by Magic's mana system is partially responsible for its success. Games where the less skilled can never win against the more skilled create an environment that's impenetrable to new players. If I were to go to a GP and be paired up against LSV, I wouldn't feel hopeless - I'm probably going to lose, but I might not. And that keeps new players coming back - the feeling that next time might be the time.
I believe this is at least partially responsible for why Magic has continued and so many other TCGs just fall by the wayside.
Good point, but it doesn't soothe the nerves of a mana screwed nerd all that much :b
I stuck with MTG because it's a complete package, always has been. The lore kept me there above all as a kid. The illustrations, themes and tribals... and the endless depth.
Many many games have had a system like the WoW TCg where any card can become mana. It's often the first thing that a CCG will change from the core magic mechanics.
It's never really worked that well though to be honest - magics land and mana mechanics are ultimately one of the strongest aspects of the game for a huge variety of reasons. As well as the above, it's also hugely beneficial for introducing new people to the game - forests and islands are easy to understand and play. Having to make a choice on your very first turn about which card is your weakest that you convert it to a resource is actually a really difficult choice and acts as a big barrier to new players.
(And as Maro has endlessly said - those initial complexity impressions and interactions are the key to keeping new players in the game).
It's never really worked that well though to be honest - magics land and mana mechanics are ultimately one of the strongest aspects of the game for a huge variety of reasons. As well as the above, it's also hugely beneficial for introducing new people to the game - forests and islands are easy to understand and play. Having to make a choice on your very first turn about which card is your weakest that you convert it to a resource is actually a really difficult choice and acts as a big barrier to new players.
(And as Maro has endlessly said - those initial complexity impressions and interactions are the key to keeping new players in the game).
Correct- they thought it was a problem that needed to be "fixed"...then every competing game who used the system wasn't as successful.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Okay, see, I went through this phase not too long ago. You'll get better at deckbuilding and these problems will happen much less.
I mean, look above. Normally, I'm a pretty decent player. A C+/B- guy right now. Last night, I scrubbed out so bad they were talking about starting a charity for me.
It IS a card game. Luck of the draw, it just wasn't in the cards, etc...
Yeah I usually compare MtG to poker. No matter how skilled you are, you are not going to win 100% of the time. I learn to tell myself it's just the nature of the game if I lose to mana boned/flooding or getting top decked, etc. I only beat myself up a little when I lost because of my own actions, which has happened in my last few losing matches.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
Well, the average pack is worth ~$10 right now, assuming all un-spoiled cards are $0, and not counting foils. Based on tcgplayer averages. So $300 box seems kinda right given limited supply. I probably wouldn't pay that much, but hey I got mine at MSRP so I'm okay with the value so far.
Thanks guys, I'm sure my next deck will be better. Oh look it is!
Lost 0-2 in the first round because mulligans - mana flood. Opponent played superstars like gatekeepers without gates and gutter skulks.
GG wizards GG
Luckily I have now run out of tix and am not planning to get more. Maybe ever. (and yes I realise how stupid my rants are bound to come off)
Lost 0-2 in the first round because mulligans - mana flood. Opponent played superstars like gatekeepers without gates and gutter skulks.
GG wizards GG
Luckily I have now run out of tix and am not planning to get more. Maybe ever. (and yes I realise how stupid my rants are bound to come off)
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Wait. You're playing single elimination??
Don't...don't do that until you know you're awesome at the game.
I fully believe in MTG's resource system. I think games where they remove that takes away a lot of choices in terms of deck building. Not to mention colored mana makes things far more interesting. You also don't have that player dilemma where they don't want to use their powerful cards as resource drops and they feel bad about having to do it.
8-4 is already terrible in pricing and the other formats are basically just you throwing money away no matter how well you do.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Well, the problem is that you're expected to go X-0 when you play single elimination. You're also jumping into a very difficult draft format for new players. You have to know 3 sets front and back, add with that any variance and of course you're going to have a bad time. You need to be able to play at least 3-4 rounds to see the interactions. Even the best players in the world don't expect to X-0 every time. It's impossible. As a newer player, you should be striving for 3-1/2-1, even with a GREAT draft deck. A single loss and you're out is for people who really understand the format and A) have a lot of draft practice and B) are okay with losing cash. Swiss drafts where even if you just win one match and get a pack are really where new drafters (AKA you and I) should be living for a while.
You might be right of course. It's just that the moral of playing formats where you don't even have a chance of going positive makes me depressed and angry :b
Maybe I'll do a round of swiss next time I get the cravings and come back to thank you.
Pegasos123
Member
i have all my cards somewhere in a box ... that was a great time back then.
to bad nobody of my friends plays magic anymore :-(
to bad nobody of my friends plays magic anymore :-(
How long ago was "back then"?
I know what you mean with the shuffler. I haven't played online much because it was always getting to me. It is random, but if I always get the same problems it isn't random to me.
Last time I played it seemed like every game was either decent hand, then a flood of mana, or a 1/2 land hand and then drought.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Anybody have the following:
2 Godless Shrines
4 Searing Spears
4 Lingering Souls
2 Skirsdag High Priest
1 Vault of the Archangel
for trade?
2 Godless Shrines
4 Searing Spears
4 Lingering Souls
2 Skirsdag High Priest
1 Vault of the Archangel
for trade?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
divisionbyzorro
Member
So let's look at the math. If I'm 50% to win every match I play, what's the expected value of Swiss vs 8-4?
In Swiss, if I win 50% of my matches, my EV is 1.5 packs.
In 8-4, if I win 50% of my matches, I make the finals 1/4 of the time; my EV is 1.5 packs.
So if you think you are on equal footing with other players, Swiss is just as good as 8-4, and you get to play three times as many matches and get three times as much practice in terms of playing the matches out. Plus, you get to learn whether the issue was your deck, your matchup, your play skill, or just luck. You only play 8-4 if you think you're better than other players - plus you have to consider that players in 8-4s are better than players in Swiss (on average)!
The only time I ever play 8-4 is during release week and right after. That's because the format is still being figured out, new players are jumping in, and (at least it feels this way to me) the overall skill level in that queue is lower. After a couple of weeks, I'm right back to Swiss. I am not confident enough in my drafting skill level to play 8-4. Yes, it's impossible to "go infinite" in Swiss, but unless you're really good at drafting, you'll burn through your tickets a lot slower playing Swiss.
Also, never, ever pay 14 tickets to draft. Add bots to your buddylist (cardbot.com, marlonmtgo.com, mtgotraders.com), and buy packs from the bots. Right now, you can buy a draft set from Marlon bots for 10.64, which means you pay 12.64 to draft.
I might have extras, I'll have to check when I get home. You have a tradelist online atm?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, exactly. You did the math and shit. Guess you went to college!!!
I do. Same place as always.
- Huntmasters
- Terminus
- Breeding Pool
- Hallowed Fountain
- Bonfires
- Thundermaw
- Glacial Fortress
- Woodland Cemetery
- Drowned Catacombs
- Rakdos' Return
- Savageborn Hydra
More shit.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Similar threads
- Locked