"Fun for limited" is just a nice way of saying "bad".
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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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"Fun for limited" is just a nice way of saying "bad".
this was my original opinion.
His +1 is awful and do-nothing in aggro, and his 0 seemed approximately equal to old garruk's.
Basically a harder to cast version of Garruk Relentless that's incapable of protecting itself.
But he's a midrange walker, and doesn't belong in an aggro plan like Domri did. He drops on turn 3-4, swings in for 2 to ping a jace to death, then takes over the game against control if unanswered. I feel like he's a sideboard walker -- you take out your removal spells for him when you're up against UW, and you feel pretty damn good about it too, because even if he's D-Sphered you still made a bear.
The dragon is the best card spoiled tonight, but Xenagos is a close second if only for the massive amount of pressure he puts on what's predicted to be the best deck in the format.
$40 is damn hilarious though.
crimsonspider89
Banned
My god, that satyr plainswalker is stupid.
You can play him turn three and then play something else for protection. So freaking awesome.
Ramp/midrange going to love this guy.
Not to mention the new legendary land and freaking monstrosity creatures.
SO much mana from him and that land.
You can play him turn three and then play something else for protection. So freaking awesome.
Ramp/midrange going to love this guy.
Not to mention the new legendary land and freaking monstrosity creatures.
SO much mana from him and that land.
Ive played gruul a ton of times and most of time I dont get to draw a creature, usually domri is just a distraction because its ultimate is so powerful. If you want domri to draw you cards, you need to play with 20 lands.
Rakdos's Return.
crimsonspider89
Banned
You play him turn 3 and then use his mana to drop a powerful three drop creature.
Then drop a Polukranos/Garruk next turn. And he enables R/G creature with monstrous to trigger a whole lot easier.
Then drop a Polukranos/Garruk next turn. And he enables R/G creature with monstrous to trigger a whole lot easier.
I play limited wayyyy more than I play standard, so I get excited about terrible cards a lot. These aura creatures are so swingy and fun in ante league I can't help but like them.
But yeah, they're bad in every constructed format ever.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I will say that Xenagos makes the new Utopia Tree make a lot more sense.
Very strong in Commander.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Maybe its just me but these swamps:
look like they were ripped directly from the old Jason and the Argonauts movie. Its awesome
look like they were ripped directly from the old Jason and the Argonauts movie. Its awesome
Possibly a 1-of in a control deck as a finisher
crimsonspider89
Banned
New Elspeht is pretty much a finisher for control decks.
Going to try to resolve her to slow down and win the match just by making constant blockers. Bestow I understand since if was too cheap would be stupid since after enchanted creature dies, bestowed creature comes into play as a creature. But two more is stupid.
Should be 1.
Going to try to resolve her to slow down and win the match just by making constant blockers. Bestow I understand since if was too cheap would be stupid since after enchanted creature dies, bestowed creature comes into play as a creature. But two more is stupid.
Should be 1.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm such a basic land snob. Ever since I bought my set of Zendikar full-arts, everything else just looks boring. 
Elspeth is a 1-of finisher for control if you think your meta is full of people smart enough to sideboard in Slaughter Games for your Aetherlings.
That's about it. She's sweet in commander too, though.
I can't get over how amazing Halitosis Dragon is.
It dodges:
Fiendslayer Paladin
Azorius Charm
Detention Sphere
Chained to the Rocks
Banisher Priest
etc, etc. I wish I could cancel my orders for Cerberus now, because this replaces it in almost every single list I've made.
That's about it. She's sweet in commander too, though.
I can't get over how amazing Halitosis Dragon is.
It dodges:
Fiendslayer Paladin
Azorius Charm
Detention Sphere
Chained to the Rocks
Banisher Priest
etc, etc. I wish I could cancel my orders for Cerberus now, because this replaces it in almost every single list I've made.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Elspeth is kinda like a more consistently good Assemble the Legion.
acheron_xl
Member
I already hate Xenagos. Since I see everything through an EDH lens now, I just see that guy enabling Animar, Riku and Maelstrom Wanderer decks. Gross.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
BTE+ and token maker stapled to a PW seems really, really good.
On second thought...
I really don't like Xenogas.
His first ability = win more/very situational/often does nothing.
His second ability = token factory.
His ultimate = lol.
With 2 R/G PWs in the format, they weren't going to print a second good one considering that both Domri and Chandra are very, very good.
I really don't like Xenogas.
His first ability = win more/very situational/often does nothing.
His second ability = token factory.
His ultimate = lol.
With 2 R/G PWs in the format, they weren't going to print a second good one considering that both Domri and Chandra are very, very good.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Chandra is the opposite of good. She's quite horrible. One semi-useful ability does not a good PW make.
And not really seeing how free mana is suddenly useless in a red heavy deck. Or how 2/2 haste token generation is bad. What is it about those things that makes you dislike them?
And not really seeing how free mana is suddenly useless in a red heavy deck. Or how 2/2 haste token generation is bad. What is it about those things that makes you dislike them?
Keru_Shiri
Member
The new R/G can help pay monstrosity costs. He's also a great topdeck after an opposing board wipe since he can start repopulating your side instantly.
Definitely worth keeping an eye on.
Definitely worth keeping an eye on.
divisionbyzorro
Member
The main concern with Xenagos is that he needs a very specific type of deck to be good in. It needs to be mana hungry (or at least have a lot of mana sinks) and also want to have lots of creatures. So it doesn't fit into the usual Jund-style midrange deck, where the goal isn't so much to have lots of creatures but just to have the best ones.
If I had to guess at what kind of deck he would want, I would say a Naya Tokens deck, with repeatable Populate effects and Scooze as mana sinks. But we don't know what the lands are, and we don't know how viable 3-color decks will be in this new standard.
More than likely, you see him as sideboard tech against Control. RGx midrange decks side out their removal and bring in this guy as the cheapest repeatable token generator.
EDIT: Xenagos. I keep wanting to switch those around.
If I had to guess at what kind of deck he would want, I would say a Naya Tokens deck, with repeatable Populate effects and Scooze as mana sinks. But we don't know what the lands are, and we don't know how viable 3-color decks will be in this new standard.
More than likely, you see him as sideboard tech against Control. RGx midrange decks side out their removal and bring in this guy as the cheapest repeatable token generator.
EDIT: Xenagos. I keep wanting to switch those around.
Keru_Shiri
Member
I don't know y'all, a 4-mana 'walker that can protect itself, apply steady pressure, AND generate fast mana without losing loyalty seems really good to me.
At the very least, this guy will get playtested heavily by the likes of Kibler, so we'll know soon enough if this guy is up to the task.
At the very least, this guy will get playtested heavily by the likes of Kibler, so we'll know soon enough if this guy is up to the task.
Just like Daybreak Ranger!
Keru_Shiri
Member
Daybreak Ranger is a 4-mana walker? That generates mana?
No, Kibler loved Daybreak Ranger and kept trying to force it
Keru_Shiri
Member
Oh, that makes a lot more sense, haha. I kinda hope you guys are right though, I love R/G but I don't want to shell out for another hyped walker.
CorruptShadow
Member
Totally agree with all of this.
Starting to think the best comparison to Xenograss isn't Garruk Relentless -- it's Wildspeaker.
+1 makes mana. Wildspeaker's is far, far, far, far better. A guaranteed 2 mana beats the hell out of Battle Hymn every turn -- yes, there are occasions where you'll make more, but I imagine that the average isn't going to be very impressive... and there'll be plenty of situations where that +1 won't do anything. Too inconsistent.
Same amount of starting loyalty.
The 0 ability makes a 2/2 with haste, giving some immediate impact, where garruk's -1 makes a vanilla 3/3. I think Xeno has the better ability here -- haste is damn important, and that impact is amazing -- but haste isn't too relevant when you're trying to use that ability to protect the planeswalker you just dropped.
I still really like him against control, but buying at $40 would be utterly stupid. Chandra and Domri Rade are the walkers you want for new standard. Chandra gets you card advantage, lets you select what you play with Magma Jets, and lets you attack through fiendslayer paladin. Domri kills fiendslayer paladin and gets you slow CA. Xeno gives you a babby bloodbraid elf and leaves you with a three loyalty PW. I don't imagine he'll help in matchups where your opponent isn't also playing planeswalkers.
He is this format's jace killer, though.
+1 makes mana. Wildspeaker's is far, far, far, far better. A guaranteed 2 mana beats the hell out of Battle Hymn every turn -- yes, there are occasions where you'll make more, but I imagine that the average isn't going to be very impressive... and there'll be plenty of situations where that +1 won't do anything. Too inconsistent.
Same amount of starting loyalty.
The 0 ability makes a 2/2 with haste, giving some immediate impact, where garruk's -1 makes a vanilla 3/3. I think Xeno has the better ability here -- haste is damn important, and that impact is amazing -- but haste isn't too relevant when you're trying to use that ability to protect the planeswalker you just dropped.
I still really like him against control, but buying at $40 would be utterly stupid. Chandra and Domri Rade are the walkers you want for new standard. Chandra gets you card advantage, lets you select what you play with Magma Jets, and lets you attack through fiendslayer paladin. Domri kills fiendslayer paladin and gets you slow CA. Xeno gives you a babby bloodbraid elf and leaves you with a three loyalty PW. I don't imagine he'll help in matchups where your opponent isn't also playing planeswalkers.
He is this format's jace killer, though.
I'm guessing that we get the new lands tonight from the Flores article on dailymtg.com. Any predictions? The "Nimbus Maze" cycle just doesn't seem like its going to happen. I'm also curious how many we get- with one of the main factions being R/W, I'd be surprised to just see the 5 friendly pairs.
Wouldn't be surprised if it were just every red pairing. Would be silly, at least.
..........Red <3
They'll do all 10 combos but it'll be spread out across the whole block.
narcosis219
Member
Yup, they've come out and said they're going to try to do all 10 pairs every block so that block constructed doesn't get awkward with only enemy pair lands.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Hmmm, if this is true, the next Standard might be a bit slower, or shift to 3 colors so as to double-up on shocks.
I can see a lot of control players liking this.
EDIT: I'd be fine with these if they were printed at Uncommon, like the Zendikar Refuges.
Bleurgh.
What's everyone's top 5 of Theros so far? No reprints, we all know Thoughtseize is the best card.
for me:
Honorable mention: Xenagos
People will try to make this card work. It's a smaller bloodbraid elf that always cascades into a bad planeswalker, and that's more than enough to get it played in midrange sideboards -- maybe even a 1-2 in the main, given how amazing control is predicted to be.
Unlike BBE, however, you only need one counterspell to stop this guy. He also doesn't do much (read -- anything relevant) against creature decks, and doesn't have a meaningful way to protect himself. The planeswalker slots for new standard are already pretty hotly contested, but this guy is good enough against azorius to carve himself a little niche.
That niche just might be in the sideboard.
#5: Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
What? A 1-2 of in some control/midrange strategies on the top 5 in this list?
I can't help it. Few decks will support it, mainly restricting itself to Boros Reckoner builds -- see the Boros Midrange idea below-- but when this card works, it's pretty damn crazy.
It isn't Kessig Wolf run -- hell, it isn't anywhere near as good -- but it fits a similar playstyle. A weak land that hurts your manabase most of the time, but when things go right for you, Christmas comes early.
You don't have to be ahead to get advantage out of it, either -- just a Chained to the Rocks lingering around and a Boros Reckoner in play, and you've got yourself a mini cabal coffers to cast Aurelia's Fury and Rakdos's Return with. Possibly not competitive as more than a 1-of, but it's very exciting.
#4: Underworld Cerberus.
I had an article written on this fucker, but it was kind of made obselete by the spoiling of Stormbreath Dragon.
Even though it lost its throne as the best 5-drop, this is one of the best midrange creatures in the upcoming standard format.
Does that ability seem like a downside to you? Does it seem symmetrical?
It's neither. The sort of deck that'll really appreciate a nearly unblockable 6/6 with a death trigger is the same sort of deck that doesn't mind clogging up the field a bit early on. This card lets you overextend. He's a freakin' midrange deck in one card.
Although the sheer amount of card advantage it nets you against control may be obvious, a lot of people wondered what'd happen against aggro decks -- can't they just triple block it? Then get all their creatures back? This card sucks!
Let me explain.
Say you have scavenging ooze and out, and your opponent decides to triple block your Cerberus.
Let it die, and exile all your opponent's creatures in response to the death trigger.
This is made even more hilarious by your ability to toss Rakdos Charm in the sideboard against aggro (if you want to keep cerberus in for this matchup, which you probably should not). Exile their yard in response to the trigger. You get everything back. Your opponents do not.
Finally, what about control's exiling abilities? Surely Detention Sphere, Azorious Charm, etc eat this card for breakfast?
But won't aggro shells be playing cards like Cartel Aristocrat or Varolz anyway? If you can't run Golgari Charms in the graveyard to get Cerberus back from his temporary exile, then you can just sacrifice him in response to the trigger. Bam, the creatures you lost early in the game are all back in your hand.
He goes well in shells where a lot of your creatures have haste -- tempo is extremely important for the sort of deck that'll pack a ton of creatures and end a cuve at 5 -- which is just 'rakdos' in the upcoming standard format.
#3: Chained to the Rocks
This card is simultaneously over and underhyped.
On one hand, it's just a cheaper and more restrictive Journey to Nowhere. That probably isn't enough to rocket its price up to the ~$5 it's preordering at unless Boros midrange is a sure thing in the upcoming format.
On the other, Boros midrange has a lot going for it. The best removal spells in the format, Angel of Serenity as a win condition, the ability to ramp with Nykthos.... the list goes on.
This card will see play somewhere. It isn't broken, it isn't Swords to Plowshares, and it's probably around the same power level as Condemn.... but it's a very solid piece of removal which you should be keeping an eye on.
#2: Sylvan Caryatid
It is a mana dork you cannot bolt.
No, it isn't Wall of Roots. No, it doesn't have the same role in kiki-pod or any other deck in modern -- you can't play mana dorks on your turn with this then use it to sink 2 mana into a convoke spell.
You can, however, safely play this as your Farseek replacement in standard. Enjoy. You earned it. I don't know if Bant has enough desire for green to warrant this dork's inclusion -- I'm fairly certain it doesn't -- but the idea of turn 3 Jace AoT is pretty drool-worthy.
#1
.....................
Stormbreath Dragon. C'mon, are you serious?
This is the best card in the set. It's a thundermaw replacement and more, and it makes everything I said about Underworld Cerberus pretty much irrelevant.
This is the 5-drop of the upcoming standard format. It dodges every piece of removal played by W/U control decks, with the exception of supreme verdict.
Think about that for a second.
Unless your opponent manages to land a counterspell on this big fucker, the only way they can stop your hasted 4/4 flier is with a 4 mana sorcery. After taking damage from it. Potentially after they've taken damage twice and eaten 4+ damage to the face from its monstrosity ability.
Italics are for emphasis, right? Can I double italicize? Does bold add more?
This card is fucking good.
Remember how good Thundermaw was in the previous format, even after spirit tokens started being used less and less? It got through every time. Guaranteed. Yes, it could still eat azorius charm, detention sphere, etc... But that was often the turn after attacking, and it didn't always matter.
Well, unless we start seeing some absurdly powerful flying token generation again, this card is significantly better in the upcoming format than Thundermaw ever was in the previous one. It nearly always gets in, dodges the best removal in the format, and is generally a complete pain in the ass to deal with.
If it survives until you have 7 mana, you basically win.
for me:
Honorable mention: Xenagos
People will try to make this card work. It's a smaller bloodbraid elf that always cascades into a bad planeswalker, and that's more than enough to get it played in midrange sideboards -- maybe even a 1-2 in the main, given how amazing control is predicted to be.
Unlike BBE, however, you only need one counterspell to stop this guy. He also doesn't do much (read -- anything relevant) against creature decks, and doesn't have a meaningful way to protect himself. The planeswalker slots for new standard are already pretty hotly contested, but this guy is good enough against azorius to carve himself a little niche.
That niche just might be in the sideboard.
#5: Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
What? A 1-2 of in some control/midrange strategies on the top 5 in this list?
I can't help it. Few decks will support it, mainly restricting itself to Boros Reckoner builds -- see the Boros Midrange idea below-- but when this card works, it's pretty damn crazy.
It isn't Kessig Wolf run -- hell, it isn't anywhere near as good -- but it fits a similar playstyle. A weak land that hurts your manabase most of the time, but when things go right for you, Christmas comes early.
You don't have to be ahead to get advantage out of it, either -- just a Chained to the Rocks lingering around and a Boros Reckoner in play, and you've got yourself a mini cabal coffers to cast Aurelia's Fury and Rakdos's Return with. Possibly not competitive as more than a 1-of, but it's very exciting.
#4: Underworld Cerberus.
I had an article written on this fucker, but it was kind of made obselete by the spoiling of Stormbreath Dragon.
Even though it lost its throne as the best 5-drop, this is one of the best midrange creatures in the upcoming standard format.
Does that ability seem like a downside to you? Does it seem symmetrical?
It's neither. The sort of deck that'll really appreciate a nearly unblockable 6/6 with a death trigger is the same sort of deck that doesn't mind clogging up the field a bit early on. This card lets you overextend. He's a freakin' midrange deck in one card.
Although the sheer amount of card advantage it nets you against control may be obvious, a lot of people wondered what'd happen against aggro decks -- can't they just triple block it? Then get all their creatures back? This card sucks!
Let me explain.
Say you have scavenging ooze and out, and your opponent decides to triple block your Cerberus.
Let it die, and exile all your opponent's creatures in response to the death trigger.
This is made even more hilarious by your ability to toss Rakdos Charm in the sideboard against aggro (if you want to keep cerberus in for this matchup, which you probably should not). Exile their yard in response to the trigger. You get everything back. Your opponents do not.
Finally, what about control's exiling abilities? Surely Detention Sphere, Azorious Charm, etc eat this card for breakfast?
But won't aggro shells be playing cards like Cartel Aristocrat or Varolz anyway? If you can't run Golgari Charms in the graveyard to get Cerberus back from his temporary exile, then you can just sacrifice him in response to the trigger. Bam, the creatures you lost early in the game are all back in your hand.
He goes well in shells where a lot of your creatures have haste -- tempo is extremely important for the sort of deck that'll pack a ton of creatures and end a cuve at 5 -- which is just 'rakdos' in the upcoming standard format.
#3: Chained to the Rocks
This card is simultaneously over and underhyped.
On one hand, it's just a cheaper and more restrictive Journey to Nowhere. That probably isn't enough to rocket its price up to the ~$5 it's preordering at unless Boros midrange is a sure thing in the upcoming format.
On the other, Boros midrange has a lot going for it. The best removal spells in the format, Angel of Serenity as a win condition, the ability to ramp with Nykthos.... the list goes on.
This card will see play somewhere. It isn't broken, it isn't Swords to Plowshares, and it's probably around the same power level as Condemn.... but it's a very solid piece of removal which you should be keeping an eye on.
#2: Sylvan Caryatid
It is a mana dork you cannot bolt.
No, it isn't Wall of Roots. No, it doesn't have the same role in kiki-pod or any other deck in modern -- you can't play mana dorks on your turn with this then use it to sink 2 mana into a convoke spell.
You can, however, safely play this as your Farseek replacement in standard. Enjoy. You earned it. I don't know if Bant has enough desire for green to warrant this dork's inclusion -- I'm fairly certain it doesn't -- but the idea of turn 3 Jace AoT is pretty drool-worthy.
#1
.....................
Stormbreath Dragon. C'mon, are you serious?
This is the best card in the set. It's a thundermaw replacement and more, and it makes everything I said about Underworld Cerberus pretty much irrelevant.
This is the 5-drop of the upcoming standard format. It dodges every piece of removal played by W/U control decks, with the exception of supreme verdict.
Think about that for a second.
Unless your opponent manages to land a counterspell on this big fucker, the only way they can stop your hasted 4/4 flier is with a 4 mana sorcery. After taking damage from it. Potentially after they've taken damage twice and eaten 4+ damage to the face from its monstrosity ability.
Italics are for emphasis, right? Can I double italicize? Does bold add more?
This card is fucking good.
Remember how good Thundermaw was in the previous format, even after spirit tokens started being used less and less? It got through every time. Guaranteed. Yes, it could still eat azorius charm, detention sphere, etc... But that was often the turn after attacking, and it didn't always matter.
Well, unless we start seeing some absurdly powerful flying token generation again, this card is significantly better in the upcoming format than Thundermaw ever was in the previous one. It nearly always gets in, dodges the best removal in the format, and is generally a complete pain in the ass to deal with.
If it survives until you have 7 mana, you basically win.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Yeah, the more I read Stormbreath Dragon, the better he seems. Being able to laugh at an Angel of Serenity warrants at least a 2nd look.
I will say this about Theros - I absolutely hate how all but like 2 of the cards I'm interested in are at Mythic Rare. Red was supposed to be the budget-friendly color, but the color's staples have gotten more and more expensive in this post-Bonfire world.
I will say this about Theros - I absolutely hate how all but like 2 of the cards I'm interested in are at Mythic Rare. Red was supposed to be the budget-friendly color, but the color's staples have gotten more and more expensive in this post-Bonfire world.
Yea the Dragon is definitely the best thing they've shown so far.
More importantly it dodges Azorius Charm and Lightning Helix.
Nothing else has really excited me, definitely not enough to make a list.
More importantly it dodges Azorius Charm and Lightning Helix.
Nothing else has really excited me, definitely not enough to make a list.
Yeah, the more I read Stormbreath Dragon, the better he seems. Being able to laugh at an Angel of Serenity warrants at least a 2nd look.
I will say this about Theros - I absolutely hate how all but like 2 of the cards I'm interested in are at Mythic Rare. Red was supposed to be the budget-friendly color, but the color's staples have gotten more and more expensive in this post-Bonfire world.
Buy the dragon and cerberus before they go up, then! I got my playsets for 40 and 22 respectively.
It does suck how they're making all the best red cards mythics now, but... Well, people undervalue red rares. Historically, they're correct to do so. But it's pretty much impossible to lose money on spec buying the dragon right now.
Yeah, I just had to spend an extra 8 bux cause the playset I wanted got sold out while I was thinking about it. Far/Away, Turn/Burn and Putrefy are the only cards that really deal with him in the format.
Yeah, I can't believe he started at 10 this morning. I was asleep and just got in at like 16 per.
Yeah, I can't believe he started at 10 this morning. I was asleep and just got in at like 16 per.
Doom Blade kills him. I kind of want to sideboard him out for Cerberus and Rakdos Charm in the mirror, even though that's way too cute to be good.... but I love turning off my opponents' removal spells while sideboarding in shit to kill their keyrunes.
Buy it Nows look to be moving to $25. I was worried about the "pre-TCG vendors" effect, but I don't see him going below 20 anytime soon.
I bought on ebay. They better not cancel on me.
But yeah, he won't dip below 20 until redemptions go up. I can see him hitting 30+ in the short term.
So what's the best Jace shell? Obviously, you're playing White because of all the removal.... but then
Green gets you Sylvan Caryatid, which is essentially Farseek. But I'm not seeing a lot of other good green cards that survive post rotation. I worry that this deck is actually just cold to the dragon due to its best removal (the charms) being useless.
Red gets you Turn/Burn and Helix.
Black gets you Far/Away and the UB inversion spell.
Green gets you Sylvan Caryatid, which is essentially Farseek. But I'm not seeing a lot of other good green cards that survive post rotation. I worry that this deck is actually just cold to the dragon due to its best removal (the charms) being useless.
Red gets you Turn/Burn and Helix.
Black gets you Far/Away and the UB inversion spell.
Limited > Constructed bro.
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