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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
Rough list:
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
4 Quicken
4 Izzet Charm
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Molten Birth
2 Counterflux
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Bident of Thassa
23 lands
Edit: maybe incorporate Turn // Burn depending on the meta, but charm is more useful against control and mortars take care of loxodon smiters and other 4/4s.
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Master of Waves
4 Quicken
4 Izzet Charm
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Molten Birth
2 Counterflux
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Bident of Thassa
23 lands
Edit: maybe incorporate Turn // Burn depending on the meta, but charm is more useful against control and mortars take care of loxodon smiters and other 4/4s.
Ooh maybe that crazy dragon thingy in dragon's maze would work in a u/r token deck.
EDIT: you probably want some card draw in there, opportunity or maybe blast of genius.
I have a deck idea for that.I should see if it would work better after rotation lol
blueverrun
it's a bad card, but just cool enough that I really want to put one in a deck at a major event
the list above can't win without dropping a young pyromancer, as thassa only becomes a creature while playing against midrange.
You're on the right track by not focusing on the guttersnipe/pyromancer/purphorus christmasland scenarios, but it can't win through any amount of removal.
Replacing dead cards (like quicken) with some redundancy, will probably figure out a list later. I'm sick of working on naya anyway, and I want to fit Master of Wavves into something. I don't think that's this list -- token lists focusing on young pyromancer and spells are not able to support devotion -- but I really want to.
My copies have Nathan Williams on them.
blindrocket
Member
Lucario, What build are you using for your B/R aggro?
Also are you testing these at the kitchen table? Are you burned out on Magic yet? lol
Also are you testing these at the kitchen table? Are you burned out on Magic yet? lol
will post when it's more refined, i'm embarrassed by the manabase
you know that feeling when you used to be fat and aren't anymore but you're still embarrassed to take your shirt off at the beach? no?
it's like that
anyway, to answer the next two questions: yes, no. The alternative (until schoolwork picks up) is sleeping and playing ps3 games, lol. At least this makes me feel productive.
grakl keeps schooling me though
Who maindecks Golgari Charms never mind four? Actually, is Jund still a deck without huntmasters, thragtusks, farseeks and a consistent manabase?
The deck does not revolve around young pyromancer. It's just a value card. The real win cons are thassa and master of waves. Master of Waves will pump all your red or blue elemental tokens and hit a critical mass with devotion three or up. Which is why the frostburn weirds are there; a hard to remove two drop that provides devotion two. Coupled with Jace's +1, Master's pro red ability, an army of tokens (good luck, firefist striker) and a variety of burn spells, I have no doubt the deck can live through red based aggro decks until it can get devotion up and destroy all things with Thassa. Supreme Verdict is an issue though.
The deck does not revolve around young pyromancer. It's just a value card. The real win cons are thassa and master of waves. Master of Waves will pump all your red or blue elemental tokens and hit a critical mass with devotion three or up. Which is why the frostburn weirds are there; a hard to remove two drop that provides devotion two. Coupled with Jace's +1, Master's pro red ability, an army of tokens (good luck, firefist striker) and a variety of burn spells, I have no doubt the deck can live through red based aggro decks until it can get devotion up and destroy all things with Thassa. Supreme Verdict is an issue though.
I shuffled it up. It cannot. Young Pyromancer and Master of Wavves are not your only win conditions, but they are your only speedy win conditions -- and they both die to magma jet, shock, thunder strike, doom blade, etc.
Thassa stays on the field as a 'scry 1 every turn' that can safely be ignored
Quicken cycles itself and that's about it
Frostburn actually does a great job holding burn back for a little while, but I imagine things get much worse post-board when more removal can come in. It's a great card choice against aggro, though, and one that needs to be appreciated more.
Thassa is a dead card, bident is a nearly-dead card, jace is '-2, gain 2 life', and you save removal for the eight win conditions.
It's super easy to play around.
My goal isn't to shitpost, though -- sorry if I seem like I'm being a dick -- I just want to find a version of the deck that can win through removal. As I said earlier, this is a good foundation in terms of spells -- this is the only list where I'd run Izzet Charm in such high quantities, simply because your pyromancers are so important.
I don't imagine these lists focus on Master of Waves, though, which is why I'm looking at alternate creature-based win conditions.
Golgari Charm is also a sideboard card in everything that can support it -- so far, that isn't much, but it's something to keep in mind. You don't want a common SB card to wipe your board.
blindrocket
Member
will post when it's more refined, i'm embarrassed by the manabase
you know that feeling when you used to be fat and aren't anymore but you're still embarrassed to take your shirt off at the beach? no?
it's like that
anyway, to answer the next two questions: yes, no. The alternative (until schoolwork picks up) is sleeping and playing ps3 games, lol. At least this makes me feel productive.
grakl keeps schooling me though
lol
Well that's cool.
I was curious because I want to know which way to take my cheap B/R deck post-rotation.
I like The Murder King because he could be a game finisher. I didn't know if putting him with Young Pyromancer to create sacrificial fodder would be something worth doing.
lol
Well that's cool.
I was curious because I want to know which way to take my cheap B/R deck post-rotation.
I like The Murder King because he could be a game finisher. I didn't know if putting him with Young Pyromancer to create sacrificial fodder would be something worth doing.
off the top of my head, here was the base of the deck -- I'll just... not post the mana, lol.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Thoughtseize
4 Spike Jester
3 Burger King
4 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 ~WILDCARD 3-DROP (we literally did not think about this list at all before building it, nor did we consider any interactions, so it's hellhole flailer. it can kill planeswalkers like a champ, but is pretty bad against midrange. it might want to be lifebane zombie, but only if you want the mana to be even worse)
1 Exava (we only had one and the printer was being a dick)
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon
you should... probably make some replacements. it's rough and only a few things were changed around since the deck's original conception at taco bell at 2am.
Master of Waves has pro red, so I imagine Boros, Gruul and Rakdos have trouble removing it.
The Young Pyromancer dies to burn argument is almost as bad as "x creature dies to y removal." It's a two drop that can generate value. If they spend two mana to kill it, it isn't a tempo loss. The Quickens are there just for that; generating value in the early game, and the odd situation where instant mortars or molten birth matters.
You're right it has a number of dead cards and it's difficult to balance spells and devotion, but that is exactly why I said young pyromancer is a value card.
Edit: As I said, it's a rough draft. I'll keep refining it once the full spoiler is revealed.
The Young Pyromancer dies to burn argument is almost as bad as "x creature dies to y removal." It's a two drop that can generate value. If they spend two mana to kill it, it isn't a tempo loss. The Quickens are there just for that; generating value in the early game, and the odd situation where instant mortars or molten birth matters.
You're right it has a number of dead cards and it's difficult to balance spells and devotion, but that is exactly why I said young pyromancer is a value card.
Edit: As I said, it's a rough draft. I'll keep refining it once the full spoiler is revealed.
my proxy is a wallet-sized picture of Nathan Williams
i should
print real ones and test again
wow I'm bad sometimes. apologies.
I will disagree with one point, though -- if you have a limited amount of win conditions and need to drop young pyromancer to prevent yourself from losing to aggro, the aggro list is actually getting an insane amount of advantage from killing it. Your potential win cons go down to "master of wavves and only master of wavves." A speedy list running Mizzium Mortars, thoughtseize, and a non-zero amount of removal will never let thassa become active.
The "dies to removal" argument is usually incorrect when the person casting removal would be getting advantage from the play -- however, you cannot run a list with only eight real win conditions then claim I'm making a fallacious argument when I point out that four of them die to the most commonly played removal out there.
This is why you need four magma jets so you can keep your pyromancers in hand until they'll do work.
...this is why I'm putting four magma jets in over quickens.
I really like Young Pyromancer in a R/b/w deck with cards like Boros Charm and Thoughtseize/Duress to protect him while increasing the clock. It'd need more cheap, aggressive creatures or synergistic cards like Chandra's Phoenix to take advantage of the shell but I think it could work.
blindrocket
Member
Cool, thanks. I'd like to know what you find out.
My current B/R uses Desecration Demon and Rakdos, Lord of Riots for my larger creatures (6/6 fliers).
With two frostburn weirds or a frostburn weird and a jace, you already have an active Thassa. On t4 at the earliest. Not a very likely turn of events, but my point is that building devotion does not require a herculean effort.
I thought about ditching the pyromancers and adding nivix cyclops as my win condition (with Thassa giving it unblockable), but the issue remains between spells and devotion. Too bad Izzet Blitz is as good as dead.
I thought about ditching the pyromancers and adding nivix cyclops as my win condition (with Thassa giving it unblockable), but the issue remains between spells and devotion. Too bad Izzet Blitz is as good as dead.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Wouldn't the B/R be better as Jund? Reaper of the WIld seems to love Burger King/Chandra shenanigans. Ensures you can get the draw you want.
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Tidebinder Mage
4 Nightveil Specter
3 Thassa
4 Master of Wavvves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZkUmcQuLXg
3 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Ral Zarek
4 Magma Jet
2 Izzet Charm (i dno, izzet?)
2 Mizziuim Mortars
4 Syncopate
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
4 Mountain
12 Island
I imagine this scoops to control in hilariously satisfying ways, but oh my god does it make for some fun games against decks that aren't packing much efficient removal
"Frostburn weird, go."
"uh.. voice of resurgence?"
"Tidebinder mage, tap it, go"
"domri, they fight, I get a token, go"
"nightveil specter, swing at domri, you block with the token, it dies, go"
"tapped land, +1 domri, get reckoner, boros reckoner, go"
"master of wavvvvvves, make six 2/1s, swing at and kill domri, go."
it just
feels
so
good
3 Tidebinder Mage
4 Nightveil Specter
3 Thassa
4 Master of Wavvves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZkUmcQuLXg
3 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Ral Zarek
4 Magma Jet
2 Izzet Charm (i dno, izzet?)
2 Mizziuim Mortars
4 Syncopate
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
4 Mountain
12 Island
I imagine this scoops to control in hilariously satisfying ways, but oh my god does it make for some fun games against decks that aren't packing much efficient removal
"Frostburn weird, go."
"uh.. voice of resurgence?"
"Tidebinder mage, tap it, go"
"domri, they fight, I get a token, go"
"nightveil specter, swing at domri, you block with the token, it dies, go"
"tapped land, +1 domri, get reckoner, boros reckoner, go"
"master of wavvvvvves, make six 2/1s, swing at and kill domri, go."
it just
feels
so
good
i'm not gonna lie
it's a terrible list
but i like it so i'm gonna bring it to a playtest group to win one in four games and feel super good about myself
it's like... falcon punch... the deck.
The deck is dead, rancor and spectral flight are all gonna rotate out. Enchantment beats might be a thing though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Huh, did not expect strictly better Cancel
bant always loses the race against red aggro, thats why they sideboard fog. Anyway Ascended is too slow and unplayable in a bant hex deck.
Dissolve is an automatic 2 on each blue variant deck.
They've had one in nearly every set recently. (Dissipate, Dissolve, that metalcraft one)
Trying to think if Dissolve is better than Counterflux or Render Silent assuming you're playing those colors. Those two are only situationally better than Cancel while Dissolve always is and is easier to cast.
Not having played with Scry ever is making it hard for me to evaluate.
Not having played with Scry ever is making it hard for me to evaluate.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
My memory is wonky today then
acheron_xl
Member
Makes me wonder if they'll ever give Counterspell the Lightning Bolt treatment. One would assume not, but I'm never entirely sure of what Wizards thinks they're capable of getting away with.
Mana Leak was a much bigger mistake than Counterspell would be.
You make a good point.
On the other hand, red lost a bunch of efficient creatures as well (Stromkirk Noble, Flinthoof Boar, Hellrider, Thundermaw). I'm guessing Theros will have trouble filling that gap, since it seems they want it to be a slower format.
Well... so much for Render Silent & Counterflux. Might kill Psychic Strike too.
A guildgate with scry goes from common to rare, but a counterspell from common goes to uncommon. The lands as well as this should have been uncommon. Excessive blue love.. ugh
I guess this rules out Condescend?
I've played in several formats in which Mana Leak was legal and only when the most powerful Planeswalker ever printed or the most powerful Blue one drop AND the most powerful Blue two drop ever were also legal was it ever considered "a mistake". The card is powerful, no doubt, but I never understood why the woes of the world were placed upon that card instead of the cards that surrounded it. Like Bolt it's not a card you always want in standard but it isn't some damn boogeyman.
It's not as good as Condescend, but Condescend was a very good card. Of course it was printed during affinity's reign, so it was straight up unplayable back then. :lol
Edit: I'll have to side with Croc. Mana Leak was barely relevant the last time it turned legal because of Bloodbraid Elf. It's only because of a combination of BBE rotating out, JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, a bunch of birds and swords that made the following Standard one of the most static ones in modern magic.
Blue has had it rough ever since the delver deck ruled standard. With Snapcaster and Delver buggering off they can give blue some actual deck manipulation again.
As a blue mage, thank effing god.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Snapcaster Mage also took every small mistake and turned it into a huge mistake.
Hence Warleader's Helix.
Hence Warleader's Helix.
Counterflux is unbeatable with counter wars. I think its the best. Who the fuck is gonna play render silent? It needs to get through to be good.
Well warleader was good against lili, garruk, resto.... anyway if they printed lightning helix, aggro would be dead.
Card was nearly banned last time it was in Standard. It's not them being "chicken", its that the card is ridiculous.
At best, I'm thinking a functional reprint of Opt.
Aggro was fine with Lightning Helix around back in Ravnica classic standard and that was with overall worse creatures. The difference maker is Snapcaster Mage.
I don't doubt you but do you have a source? Did someone at WOTC outright say this?
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