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[bigkrev]

Modern Banned list thoughts

Never Ever coming off:
Sensei’s Divining Top
Second Sunrise

Not due to power level, but due to the types of games they create that actually damage tournament structure, and are poison to video coverage

If Magic were going to die, we would take these off so they could have one last run before the game went away forever

Artifact Lands
Skullclamp
Golgari Grave Troll
Mental Misstep

Cards that, if playable, only exist to create unfair decks. There is no upside to unbanning any of these cards, only the downside of them completely warping the format around them

We really hate combo decks, but we might eventually let one card back

Sword of the Meek
Ponder
Preordain
Rite of Flame
Dark Depths

All cards are used purely for various combo decks. I could see them shaking up a stagnet format by unbanning one of these cards at some point, but probably are locked onto the list for a while

Cards that were fine when they were printed, but further expansions have probably made these cards too good

Stoneforge Mystic
Punishing Fire
Blazing Shoal

All of these cards are fine in a vaccum, but with the existence of Batterskull, Infect and Grove of the Burnwillows, all are overpowered parts of combos

Bad memory cards

Jace the Mind Sculptor
Bloodbraid Elf
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Umezawa’s Jitte

These are all cards that warped their respective Standard enviorments. The format is probably better off without any of them, but giving any of them a trial run in the format might not be the worst thing in the world

Second tier power level cards

Ancestral Vision
Chrome Mox
Dread Return
Glimpse of nature
Green Sun’s Zenith
Hypergenesis

All of these cards are scary, but probably would only create new decks in the format if unbanned, not warp the format around them. Green Sun’s is probably the safest, and Glimpse is the scariest

Why is this card banned again?

Wild Nacatl
Seething Song

2 cards banned after the inception of the format, that if unbanned would probably not really change the format at all- they would just make Storm and Zoo, neither of which is “the best deck” a little better. I’d probably unban both, just to clean the list up a little bit

Potential bans:

Goryo’s Vengance- in the vein of Burning Shoal, the existence of Grisslebrand and Emrakul probably make this card too powerful for the format.

Deathrite Shaman- a card the format is warped around. Simply does too much in a environment with fetchlands to be considered a fair card.

Cranial Plating- probably the most powerful card in the best agro deck in the format. The real question is if the affinity deck is just dead if this card gets banned, which is probably why the card will survive

Emrakul/Grisslebrand- the cards all of the decks focusing around sneaking a creature into play are utilizing. I would be curious to see if a decks that use cards like Goryo’s Vengance or (hypothetically) Hypergenesis would be broken if the best they could cheat in were cards like Iona.

Birthing Pod- banning this would kill multiple decks instantly. It’s probably the best engine in the format.

My predictions
Modern:
Wild Nacatl, Ancestral Vision are UNBANNED
Goryo’s Vengance, Deathrite Shaman are BANNED
Legacy
True Name Nemesis is BANNED

 

[Jaeyden]

I don't think any bans are necessary. Maybe Emrakul, as it is pretty much auto scoop when it gets cheated in but beside that I feel like were going to see an unban....hopefully.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Don't really think any cards in the main 3 should be banned. Definitely some cards that could be unbanned. I'm expecting 0-2 changes.

 

[EsotericManiac]

Considering the top BUG decks aren't even running TNN anymore I really don't see a reason or a need to ban the card. It just shifted the meta

 

[y2dvd]

Welp I ain't ever drafting triple DGM again.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Welp I ain't ever drafting triple DGM again.

That format revolves around Cluestones and Trostani's Summoner. It was a thing for a while on Magic Online during the DGM release. I threw away some of my spare DGM packs on it once - it was possibly the worst format I've ever drafted.

 

[Karakand]

Welp I ain't ever drafting triple DGM again.

did you rip a pack worse than my 3 cluestone pack

wanna know how deep the dragon's maze hole goes

i bet it goes all the way to the pangaea of suck

 

[y2dvd]

I actually thought I had a decent simic deck splashed with black for removal. It was that everything was so defender happy and the removals weren't good. All games went to time.

All my rares were janky and I passed every one of it. Probably the least fun I've ever had drafting yet.

 

[OnPoint]

Ruric Thar and Teysa are insurmountable bombs due to the limited amount of removal in triple DGM.

 

[red13th]

Brian Kibler arguing for Modern bans/unbans.
Free Nacatl!

 

[kirblar]

Brian Kibler arguing for Modern bans/unbans.
Free Nacatl!

Ban DRS. Unban BBE, possibly BBlossom. It's sounding like something will happen on Monday though.

 

[bigkrev]

If NOTHING was happening, I think we would know, based on how defensive Wizards people are about the date of the list

 

[kirblar]

If NOTHING was happening, I think we would know, based on how defensive Wizards people are about the date of the list

It sounds a lot like they've been soliciting feedback from (top level) players.

 

[red13th]

DRS ban is too good to be true so I doubt it would happen. I'd do a little dance if they have the balls to do it though.

 

[MjFrancis]

I'm tempted to dump my last True-Name Nemesis in anticipation of a possible ban. A LGS offered me $45 store credit for the unopened Mind Seize deck. I bought it at 10% off so after tax it's still $15 more than what I have into it. Just thinking out loud.

 

[kirblar]

I'm tempted to dump my last True-Name Nemesis in anticipation of a possible ban. A LGS offered me $45 store credit for the unopened Mind Seize deck. I bought it at 10% off so after tax it's still $15 more than what I have into it. Just thinking out loud.

The format's adjusting (albeit in what's likely a pretty unhealthy way) so I'm not moving mine quite yet.

 

[OnPoint]

To quote Kibler's article about Modern, but applying it to Legacy

But diversity isn’t the only meaningful characteristic of a successful format. Change is important. Even if there are a half dozen different viable decks in a format at any given time, that format starts to feel really stale if nothing major happens to shake things up and you just keep seeing those same decks over and over.

Which is what I believe the mindset with TNN is. I think they wanted to shake Legacy up.

 

[kirblar]

Which is what I believe the mindset with TNN is. I think they wanted to shake Legacy up.

I think it's more "we weren't keeping a tight enough leash on our guys".

 

[crimsonspider89]

TNN can die in a fire. Brought back delver decks.

Fuck those decks. Annoying asshats.

Yes, I hate delver decks in Legacy.

The reason for that is how easy it is to win with Delver.

 

[OnPoint]

TNN can die in a fire. Brought back delver decks.

Fuck those decks. Annoying asshats.

Yes, I hate delver decks in Legacy.

The reason for that is how easy it is to win with Delver.

I think the big design flaw with Delver was that it doesn't transform back. A 3/2 flier for 1 mana is ridiculous in any format, and in any color.

 

[kirblar]

I think the big design flaw with Delver was that it doesn't transform back. A 3/2 flier for 1 mana is ridiculous in any format, and in any color.

It was that it wasn't a 2/2. They didn't know how to evaluate the card and overshot.

 

[OnPoint]

It was that it wasn't a 2/2. They didn't know how to evaluate the card and overshot.

It's certainly more fair as a 2/2. I still think a cheap flier for that cost in blue is bullshit.

 

[kirblar]

It's certainly more fair as a 2/2. I still think a cheap flier for that cost in blue is bullshit.

When they throw out "developmental reasons" for banning Wild Nacatl, they aren't kidding. That card causes problems because it's a near-impossible baseline to try and match up with. It encourages "pushing" in all the wrong places.

Delver, however, is a mistake you expect to happen. New mechanic, unsure of %s on how often it will flip. It's not something like say, Pack Rat, which should have been caught.

 

[OnPoint]

When they throw out "developmental reasons" for banning Wild Nacatl, they aren't kidding. That card causes problems because it's a near-impossible baseline to try and match up with. It encourages "pushing" in all the wrong places.

Delver, however, is a mistake you expect to happen. New mechanic, unsure of %s on how often it will flip. It's not something like say, Pack Rat, which should have been caught.

What pisses me off about Pack Rat is that since it wasn't caught, it's a part of why MonoBlack is too good for a standard Damnation reprint right now.

 

[blindrocket]

I'm tempted to dump my last True-Name Nemesis in anticipation of a possible ban. A LGS offered me $45 store credit for the unopened Mind Seize deck. I bought it at 10% off so after tax it's still $15 more than what I have into it. Just thinking out loud.

Is that even "legal" assuming it's a store that gets product from WotC?

 

[OnPoint]

Is that even "legal" assuming it's a store that gets product from WotC?

Don't many stores get their supply from secondary sellers?

 

[blindrocket]

Don't many stores get their supply from secondary sellers?

Not unopened.
EDIT: Unless you mean distributors.

 

[OnPoint]

Not unopened.
EDIT: Unless you mean distributors.

Yessir, sorry for the term confusion.

 

[blindrocket]

Yessir, sorry for the term confusion.

I don't really know the rules on that, it could be perfectly fine.

 

[An-Det]

Brian Kibler arguing for Modern bans/unbans.
Free Nacatl!

Nothing too outlandish, Nacatl and Bitterblossom are the two prime targets for unbannings. I'm still hoping for bonus surprise unbannings, but those are a good start going into the PT.

 

[kirblar]

Nothing too outlandish, Nacatl and Bitterblossom are the two prime targets for unbannings. I'm still hoping for bonus surprise unbannings, but those are a good start going into the PT.

I could totally live with testing out a format -DRS, +Nacatl, BB, BBE, Jace.

 

[An-Det]

I could totally live with testing out a format -DRS, +Nacatl, BB, BBE, Jace.

Aside from my only owning 2 Jaces I would love to see that (I really should get around to picking up the other 2). Would be a lot of fun.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't really care about the modern ban list changes. Nacatl should come back, I guess.

Reanimator would get stronger if DRS was banned, but I have a signed playset and I don't want to lose value on some of my stronger trades.(anyone wanna trade me Sphinx's Revs? :3)

 

[MjFrancis]

Is that even "legal" assuming it's a store that gets product from WotC?

That could possibly break a WotC contact, but I wouldn't know. I figure if they have any worries they'll have me break it open and it wouldn't be any different than selling singles to a shop.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I don't really know the rules on that, it could be perfectly fine.

It's completely fine.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I could totally live with testing out a format -DRS, +Nacatl, BB, BBE, Jace.

There's no way they're going to go quite that nuts. Nacatl seems like a probable candidate, as does Bitterblossom. I don't think they're quite ready to ban Deathrite Shaman yet, but I still support it as I always have.

But there's no way Jace comes off. And they just banned Bloodbraid Elf.

 

[Yeef]

If you get direct from Wizards, part of the agreement is to not sell any 'current' product internationally and not to knowingly sell to a reseller. 'Current' dis defined as two years, I believe. Either way, there's no provision about buying form a distributor or reseller; only selling to one.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Post-BNG Esper mod I'm gonna run:

4 Thoughtseize
1 Elixir of Immortality

2 Pack Rat
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dimir Charm
1 Azorius Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift

2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Pilfered Plans
3 Detention Sphere
3 Psychic Strike

4 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Gild

2 Jace, Memory Adept

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion


3 Mutavault
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Silence
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Godless Shrine
3 Watery Grave
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Gainsay
2 Negate
2 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Notion Thief
1 Pithing Needle

The mana base is the major change. I've moved up to 26 lands and replaced the gates with Temples of Enlightenment. I now have the correct number of mana sources according to Frank Karsten(14 black sources for turn 1 thoughtseize, 17.85 white sources for turn 4 Supreme Verdict and 15.65 blue sources for turn 5 Jace). I might be too ambitious raising the Mutavault cap from two to three, and replacing one with an azorius guildgate would stabilize the manabase fully, but it's worth the free attacks after Supreme Verdict and additional chump blocking. The other option is replacing one dimir charm with a Azorius Charm, which might end up being the correct solution. In most cases I've found I've gotten more value out of the Dimir charm, however.

Another major decision was whether or not to include 1-2 Bile Blight in the mainboard for pack rat and nightveil specter or 1-2 Drown in Sorrow in the Sideboard for white/red weenie decks. Ultimately I've decided against them for now since it requires me to completely revamp the mana base in order to get 18-19 black sources that would be necessary to give it any advantage over Supreme Verdict other than evading Boros and Golgari Charm.

I've also dropped a single Detention Sphere for a one-of gild, which kills gods, Fleecemane Lion and is a 5th kill spell for stormbreath, mistcutter and soldier of the pantheon. It also potentially gives me a turn-5 Elspeth.

I suppose the only remaining question is the value of Pack Rat in the Bile Blight future. It might be worth subbing them for two Blood Barons.

 

[bigkrev]

I could totally live with testing out a format -DRS, +Nacatl, BB, BBE, Jace.

No chance they let Bitterblossom and Jace back in at the same time.

 

[kirblar]

No chance they let Bitterblossom and Jace back in at the same time.

BB decks don't want Jace normally. He's too expensive.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It just dawned on me that Modern PTQ season being pushed to the summer this year lines up really nicely with the excessive speculation of fetchland reprints in the M15 core set.

Oh please be true.

 

[kirblar]

It just dawned on me that Modern PTQ season being pushed to the summer this year lines up really nicely with the excessive speculation of fetchland reprints in the M15 core set.

Oh please be true.

It's more for MM2/MM3

 

[Hero]

It's more for MM2/MM3

Wait is MM2 this summer?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Wait is MM2 this summer?

No, but it would be next summer. Maybe they're just trying to set the cycles up so that Modern PTQ season is aligned with future MM releases.

 

[Karakand]

<333

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27432-Greed-Stasis

 

[An-Det]

Got first tonight in our weekly Legacy, beating BUG Delver, Elves, BUG Delver, and drawing in the last round with Burn (we played for fun and he ruined me). Walked away with a second Ulamog, not bad for $5. In the second game against elves, he gained 21 life from my Groves since I couldn't draw/fetch any red sources at all, but punishing fire dont care.

 

["God's Beard!"]

<333

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27432-Greed-Stasis

Stasis plus adarkar unicorn god combo

 

[divisionbyzorro]

People who play Stasis are bad people

 

[y2dvd]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";98777888]Post-BNG Esper mod I'm gonna run:

4 Thoughtseize
1 Elixir of Immortality

2 Pack Rat
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dimir Charm
1 Azorius Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift

2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Pilfered Plans
3 Detention Sphere
3 Psychic Strike

4 Supreme Verdict
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Gild

2 Jace, Memory Adept

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion


3 Mutavault
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Silence
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Godless Shrine
3 Watery Grave
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Gainsay
2 Negate
2 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Notion Thief
1 Pithing Needle

The mana base is the major change. I've moved up to 26 lands and replaced the gates with Temples of Enlightenment. I now have the correct number of mana sources according to Frank Karsten(14 black sources for turn 1 thoughtseize, 17.85 white sources for turn 4 Supreme Verdict and 15.65 blue sources for turn 5 Jace). I might be too ambitious raising the Mutavault cap from two to three, and replacing one with an azorius guildgate would stabilize the manabase fully, but it's worth the free attacks after Supreme Verdict and additional chump blocking. The other option is replacing one dimir charm with a Azorius Charm, which might end up being the correct solution. In most cases I've found I've gotten more value out of the Dimir charm, however.

Another major decision was whether or not to include 1-2 Bile Blight in the mainboard for pack rat and nightveil specter or 1-2 Drown in Sorrow in the Sideboard for white/red weenie decks. Ultimately I've decided against them for now since it requires me to completely revamp the mana base in order to get 18-19 black sources that would be necessary to give it any advantage over Supreme Verdict other than evading Boros and Golgari Charm.

I've also dropped a single Detention Sphere for a one-of gild, which kills gods, Fleecemane Lion and is a 5th kill spell for stormbreath, mistcutter and soldier of the pantheon. It also potentially gives me a turn-5 Elspeth.

I suppose the only remaining question is the value of Pack Rat in the Bile Blight future. It might be worth subbing them for two Blood Barons.[/QUOTE]

I would think this would lose to aggro hard. 4 Thoughtseize and a bunch of shock lands and you're already killing yourself. I'd probably cut down on both. I'd also go all out mill and replace Elspeth for like another Jace/Asiok or Blood Baron for some life gain if you're gonna stick with 4 Thoughtseize and all the Shocklands. I will be testing out that flying inspire mill creature which I think has potential. I would run Bile Blight to removal any flying threats like Nightveil or Cloudfin Raptors on top of all the other targets it can hit so that guy can swing freely.

 

[Jaeyden]

Bolt, Path, Abrupt, Dismember, Oust, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Helix, Tribal Flames, Searing Blood, Searing Spear, Executioner's Swing, Mugging, Shock, Ground Assault, Dreadbore, Go for the Throat, Purge...how many more do we need. All colors covered. If you want to ban Deathrite in modern at least put some removal in your sideboards first. FFS, I don't give a shit what cards people are playing, at the very least I try to prepare for the meta. DRS is easy to deal with. It's not fucking hexproof, but people bitch and moan all day long. Why? Because, they don't want to remove a 1 mana creature. Well, let me give you the news. An Ornithopter costs 0 and cranial can attach to it for the low price of 0 too, and it hits a lot harder and faster than DRS. So does Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf and Wild Nactl. A strong aggro game will mean more decks packing removal. This in turn means DRS is relegated to BoP teritory if he's lucky, lavamancer if opponent is careless. NO BANS...not happening.

Red needs a comeback anyway