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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|

D

divisionbyzorro

Member
My fundamental problem with Deathrite Shaman is that he is a mana creature that can be cast off of a basic Swamp. That seriously irks me. He is a mana creature that doesn't demand you be playing a base-green deck. Hell, you can play him in a deck with no green at all and still have a turn-one mana accelerant. It screws with so many of the checks and balances that are inherent to Magic's color system. I've seen so many players escape a well-crafted Blood Moon lock by topdecking a basic Swamp, and every time it happens I die a little inside.

It's the same issue I have with Phyrexian mana. You get access to effects you're not supposed to have access to for a minimal cost. Fortunately, they didn't screw up Phyrexian mana too badly; other than Mental Misstep, the effects aren't worth paying life for. Dismember is a bit much for me too, but as it turns out the card actually serves an important role in the Modern metagame, and four life really is the tipping point for how much you're willing to pay to get an off-color effect.
 
L

Lucario

Member
'Dies to removal' isn't an argument for a 1cmc creature. A 1cmc creature shouldn't have enough of an impact on the board that it requires a specific answer.

Deathrite Shaman

-- Is a 1cmc mana dork, similar to Birds of Paradise, which provides an alarming amount of tempo advantage.

-- Wins games in attrition-based matchups by slowly draining life from your opponent

-- Can be cast with black OR green mana, making it flexible enough to fit into a number of lists which would otherwise never have the ability to play a mana dork. There are mono-red decks which play black for DRS and Bump in the Night, then splash a single forest to take advantage of DRS's lifegain ability. Allowing a primarily R/B deck a turn 1 ramp spell is ridiculous.

-- Requires an answer if your opponent is playing a graveyard-based strategy. This isn't a problem on its own -- hosers are everywhere, and they honestly should require answers -- but cards like Grafdigger's Cage aren't an auto-4-of in every deck running black. They sit in the sideboard, as they should.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
y2dvd said:
I would think this would lose to aggro hard. 4 Thoughtseize and a bunch of shock lands and you're already killing yourself. I'd probably cut down on both. I'd also go all out mill and replace Elspeth for like another Jace/Asiok or Blood Baron for some life gain if you're gonna stick with 4 Thoughtseize and all the Shocklands. I will be testing out that flying inspire mill creature which I think has potential. I would run Bile Blight to removal any flying threats like Nightveil or Cloudfin Raptors on top of all the other targets it can hit so that guy can swing freely.
Click to expand...

Lowering the number of shocks or adding bile blight throws the mana base way off. Thoughtseize is super important but I might go down to three and add an extra charm or a one-of crypt incursion.

I don't think that bile blight does anything too exciting that detention sphere doesn't, and is actually significantly harder to cast in a three color deck.

I ran pure mill for a long time, and it was really hit or miss. Unblockable aberrations, liliana into mind grind, you name it. The fact is Elspeth has been the most consistent finisher for me.

Blood Barons definitely seem worthy over the pack rats, but i'm in wait and see mode on that front. I've run both triple ashiok and jace at different points and it never turned out to be worth it. Better to have more consistent early control.

You're right that weenie aggro is my worst matchup, for the most part. It depends on specific creatures, but generally I sideboard out the 4 thoughtseizes and a jace for two doom blades and the three lifebanes against white, and drop one of the lifebanes for a pithing needle against red for the hammer.

Boros charm, chandra's phoenix, BTE, precinct captain and soldier of the pantheon are all annoying to fight.
 
M

MjFrancis

Member
God's Beard! - I'm not terribly good yet, but your Esper deck is the kind of deck I hope to face when I play my R/B Humans Aggro deck. It's a deck similar to the Grand Prix Santiago winner a few months ago. It didn't catch on (it's cheap and wins enough for me) and so if R/B Humans isn't big in your area, ignore it. I get hosed by Maze's End. I just accept that it's a major weak point and that it's a niche deck like mine that won a tourney or two and isn't played enough for people to build their decks against.

Esper Control is played enough in my area that I mainboard two skullcracks and side in two more. I have other sides for Esper, but given my local competition those are the net decks that I have the least trouble with, and yours has less lifegain and only one planeswalker as a relevant threat. Esper Control's best plays against me are a T4 J:AoT, T5 Blood Baron and a T6 Elspeth. A T3 Detention Sphere on Xathrid and a T4 or T5 Supreme Verdict might be worse, but without the J:AoT or Blood Baron I feel I have a lot more wiggle room against this Esper build.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";98838651]Lowering the number of shocks or adding bile blight throws the mana base way off. Thoughtseize is super important but I might go down to three and add an extra charm or a one-of crypt incursion.

I don't think that bile blight does anything too exciting that detention sphere doesn't, and is actually significantly harder to cast in a three color deck.

I ran pure mill for a long time, and it was really hit or miss. Unblockable aberrations, liliana into mind grind, you name it. The fact is Elspeth has been the most consistent finisher for me.

Blood Barons definitely seem worthy over the pack rats, but i'm in wait and see mode on that front. I've run both triple ashiok and jace at different points and it never turned out to be worth it. Better to have more consistent early control.[/QUOTE]

I run U/W with B splashed in. The only shocklands I'm running is Hallowed Fountain and I sometimes find myself shocking myself really low just to cast things. You got 11 shocklands going with plenty of scrylands to fix draws. Again, I'd consider lowering the shocks imo. :)

That's true, double B to cast Blight may be difficult. I was just saying, in my own mill version I will try to run Siren of Silent Song and want Blight as my premium removal. My own version of the deck would probably be U/B with W splash so it'll be easier for me to cast BB.

2 Pack Rats are fine. I think we all know Pack Rats can easily take over a game. The Blood Baron was just recommended as a late game finisher to counterbalance the life you'll lose from Thoughtseize and shocklands. Elspeth was recommended to take out to go further into milling. It's like, might as well play a classic Esper build if you are going to include her!
 
K

kirblar

Member
Lucario said:
'Dies to removal' isn't an argument for a 1cmc creature. A 1cmc creature shouldn't have enough of an impact on the board that it requires a specific answer.

Deathrite Shaman

-- Is a 1cmc mana dork, similar to Birds of Paradise, which provides an alarming amount of tempo advantage.

-- Wins games in attrition-based matchups by slowly draining life from your opponent

-- Can be cast with black OR green mana, making it flexible enough to fit into a number of lists which would otherwise never have the ability to play a mana dork. There are mono-red decks which play black for DRS and Bump in the Night, then splash a single forest to take advantage of DRS's lifegain ability. Allowing a primarily R/B deck a turn 1 ramp spell is ridiculous.

-- Requires an answer if your opponent is playing a graveyard-based strategy. This isn't a problem on its own -- hosers are everywhere, and they honestly should require answers -- but cards like Grafdigger's Cage aren't an auto-4-of in every deck running black. They sit in the sideboard, as they should.
Click to expand...
This is why Kitty is banned, btw. Only Bolt actually kills it without a massive drawback.
 
J

Jaeyden

Member
I don't think there is any question about how awesome DRS is. It is the most versatile 1 drop ever and for the decks that play it, the best 1 drop ever. But there are plenty of 1 drops that you have to answer in one way or another.

DRS doesn't help decks break the "turn 4 rule". It is answered by nearly every piece of removal. It checks itself when mirrored. It is shutdown by Ooze, RIP, Linvala etc. and (this is a very weak argument but-->) it does nothing without a graveyard.

The last time it was dominating was GP Detroit which was before the release of Theros I think. It wasn't banned then.

Since then GP Prague Top 8
4 Jund
RB Delver
RWB
Tron
Twin
Twin and RWB in the finals with RWB winning

GP Antwerp Top 8
2 Twin
Tron
Jund
Affinity
Infect
2 Living End
Tron and Twin in the finals with Twin winning

GP Brisbane Top 8
2 Affinity
Jund
2 Junk
Kiki Pod
2 Tron

Affinity and Junk in finals with Affinity winning

Look, I can see where people come from when they think the card should be banned. It's quite pervasive, but every meta is going to have cards like that. DRS is like the Brainstorm of Modern. If you can fit it in your list, you will. I just don't see it warping the meta like a ban worthy card should. I see it as a very powerful card that the meta needs in order to remain relevant in the long run. Every time you ban a card from this format, you lose legitimacy and faith. I was gung ho for Modern when it started but I have slowly been moving my stuff to legacy because every time a set is released I fear the hammer. Which cards will I lose this time? It's counterproductive to ban stuff if it isn't suffocating the meta. A healthy format should reward brewing, tweaking, smart meta decisions and the inclusion of a new card or two introduced from new standard sets every couple of months or by unbanning stuff that is clearly not as broken as it might have been a few years ago. Archetypes should be bolstered by something new not by another archetype losing something.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
y2dvd said:
I run U/W with B splashed in. The only shocklands I'm running is Hallowed Fountain and I sometimes find myself shocking myself really low just to cast things. You got 11 shocklands going with plenty of scrylands to fix draws. Again, I'd consider lowering the shocks imo. :)

That's true, double B to cast Blight may be difficult. I was just saying, in my own mill version I will try to run Siren of Silent Song and want Blight as my premium removal. My own version of the deck would probably be U/B with W splash so it'll be easier for me to cast BB.

2 Pack Rats are fine. I think we all know Pack Rats can easily take over a game. The Blood Baron was just recommended as a late game finisher to counterbalance the life you'll lose from Thoughtseize and shocklands. Elspeth was recommended to take out to go further into milling. It's like, might as well play a classic Esper build if you are going to include her!
Click to expand...

Blood Baron's lifegain almost doesn't matter to me. If I'm gonna win against aggro, it's because I made it past supreme verdict and stabilized. I'll shock myself to 6 if it means I take control of the game. I'm more worried about Pack Rat being worse due to stronger removal after BNG comes out.

Lowering the shocks by more than one is basically impossible without dropping the mutavaults entirely, increasing the mana base or going below acceptable consistency rates. I'm more worried about not hitting supreme verdict on turn 4 as often as statistically possible than I am shocking myself(which to cast verdict will probably never happen more than twice anyway).

@mjfrancis: I've fought rakdos aggro and you're absolutely right, it's extremely difficult. Burning Earth is one of if not the best sideboard card against my deck. Xathrid Necromancer is also especially annoying. That's definitely a gild target.

Thankfully, Ashiok is one of the best cards in my deck for fighting weenie Aggro. It's hard to race for cheap creatures and leads perfectly into Supreme Verdict. People diss Ashiok, but there are reasons I never sideboard it out, even against control mirrors.
 
R

red13th

Member
Several cards banned in Modern don't break the turn 4 rule. Going from memory, BBE doesn't, Bitterblossom doesn't, AV doesn't, GSZ doesn't, Mental Misstep sure as hell doesn't (lol), Sword of the Meek doesn't, Jitte doesn't, hell fucking Jace and SFM don't, Punishing Fire, Top... well, barring degenerate shit like Blazing Shoal and Hypergenesis, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't break that particular rule. Can't be bothered to check each card.
And in any case as Kibler said in his article the Modern ban guidelines are very different from other formats. I only advocate a DRS ban because well, it's Modern.
 
C

crimsonspider89

Banned
The issue is DRS is a mainstay in Legacy for the same reasons and Legacy has much more control.

DRS can set the tempo extremely well.

So you waste your control cards on DRS, now they can play there real threats with no problem such as Goyf and such.

DRS is just too strong with fetchlands present in Modern.
 
M

MjFrancis

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";98878923]Thankfully, Ashiok is one of the best cards in my deck for fighting weenie Aggro. It's hard to race for cheap creatures and leads perfectly into Supreme Verdict. People diss Ashiok, but there are reasons I never sideboard it out, even against control mirrors.[/QUOTE]I'm beginning to understand how Ashiok works as lifegain for control . If he mills something you can minus X for and put on the field next turn, your opponent will go for Ashiok instead of you for a turn. Keep your life total intact a turn. If not, you get a free guy. It isn't a wincon but I think it's useful for stalling the board for control at it's worst and at it's best you get a midrange creature to do some real damage. The -X seems awesome v. midrange and good v. aggro, ideally dropped on Turn 3. At least that's what I get out of it.

I'm interested in why you'd use it in control mirrors. Chancing that you'll exile their wincons?

At $32/playset on eBay I'm considering jumping on the Ashiok bandwagon too. If I remember they started at $20/each and I don't see them dropping much below $8/each.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
MjFrancis said:
I'm beginning to understand how Ashiok works as lifegain for control . If he mills something you can minus X for and put on the field next turn, your opponent will go for Ashiok instead of you for a turn. Keep your life total intact a turn. If not, you get a free guy. It isn't a wincon but I think it's useful for stalling the board for control at it's worst and at it's best you get a midrange creature to do some real damage. The -X seems awesome v. midrange and good v. aggro, ideally dropped on Turn 3. At least that's what I get out of it.

I'm interested in why you'd use it in control mirrors. Chancing that you'll exile their wincons?

At $32/playset on eBay I'm considering jumping on the Ashiok bandwagon too. If I remember they started at $20/each and I don't see them dropping much below $8/each.
Click to expand...

Exactly, they have to waste turns to kill it while I'm also blasting their creatures, or choose to race it and wind up fighting themselves. If they choose to race it's all in, because if they fail and I stabilize it's basically an impossible win. It also fucks over scry lands.

Ashiok into Supreme Verdict is the best possible curve out against aggro.

And basically, yeah. Control decks tend to run very few win conditions in order to keep stable pressure. Exiling a one-of elspeth or aetherling or elixir of immortality is basically an instant win. between thoughtseize and counterspells I can often pump up ashiok enough to exile their hand and graveyard, which is also basically a free win. He's not the main threat but just like against aggro he forces the opponent to waste resources which buys me time. And pithing needle is much weaker when I have three planeswalkers and detention sphere.

Ashiok is basically the difference between my mod over other esper players. That, and I like Memory Adept over Architect.
 
A

An-Det

Member
Damn tiebreakers are weird sometimes. 12 people for Modern tonight, I was the only 3-0 going into round 4. We couldn't draw and I ended up losing and somehow got 2nd (the person I beat round 2 got 1st). I can't complain too much, but still kinda annoying.

CornBurrito said:
Do people still play Duels of the Plansewalkers? I've had the game for awhile but the AI opponents get really dull.
Click to expand...

I usually boot it up when I'm home drunk and want to play a bit of magic, but I prefer Duels 2012 because of the UG Kiora ramp deck. It was so much fun to play, I wish they had kept it in the versions since then.

divisionbyzorro said:
People who play Stasis are bad people ;)
Click to expand...

Bad people with awesome taste in decks.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
An-Det said:
I usually boot it up when I'm home drunk and want to play a bit of magic, but I prefer Duels 2012 because of the UG Kiora ramp deck. It was so much fun to play, I wish they had kept it in the versions since then.
Click to expand...

Hell yeah. I still have a really soft spot for Duels 2012. At one point I was ranked in the top 100 of all players on Xbox. Then I got bored with grinding the Illusions deck and started exclusively playing the BW Control deck - oh how I loved that deck. I spent hours and hours tweaking and playing it, and routinely beating decks that were considered far, far better than mine (thank you Black Sun's Zenith!). That's how I was exposed to what would ultimately become my favorite Magic card of all time:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26259
 
P

platypotamus

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";98906405]But you can play Sealed against infinite Suntail Hawks![/QUOTE]

What really cheesed me off about the sealed mode was that the sealed campaign throws you up against a whole bunch of "there's-no-way-in-hell-that-mono-deck-came-from-a-sealed-pool" decks.

That and you only get 2 sealed pools unless you pony up for more.
 
E

esterk

Member
platypotamus said:
What really cheesed me off about the sealed mode was that the sealed campaign throws you up against a whole bunch of "there's-no-way-in-hell-that-mono-deck-came-from-a-sealed-pool" decks.

That and you only get 2 sealed pools unless you pony up for more.
Click to expand...

This.

Just beat it today, but god DAMN noone could ever make those mono colored pulls. I understand they need to challenge you, but it's just unrealistic. They should do a better job prepping you for actual sealed opponents.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";98903708]Exactly, they have to waste turns to kill it while I'm also blasting their creatures, or choose to race it and wind up fighting themselves. If they choose to race it's all in, because if they fail and I stabilize it's basically an impossible win. It also fucks over scry lands.

Ashiok into Supreme Verdict is the best possible curve out against aggro.

And basically, yeah. Control decks tend to run very few win conditions in order to keep stable pressure. Exiling a one-of elspeth or aetherling or elixir of immortality is basically an instant win. between thoughtseize and counterspells I can often pump up ashiok enough to exile their hand and graveyard, which is also basically a free win. He's not the main threat but just like against aggro he forces the opponent to waste resources which buys me time. And pithing needle is much weaker when I have three planeswalkers and detention sphere.

Ashiok is basically the difference between my mod over other esper players. That, and I like Memory Adept over Architect.[/QUOTE]

Milling victory feels so satisfying too. I usually have me Memory Adept sideboarded in vs control mirrors and hitting their win cards you listed feels so good.

Why Dimir Charm over Last Breath btw?
 
F

Frankie Williamson

Member
The Ajani white one always gave me the biggest headache in those sealed games. Always had that Wrath of God at just the perfect moment. Didn't help that two of my rares were Door to Nothingness, which has got to be the biggest fuck you card in that sealed campaign.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
MCKczrG.png
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
I think my favorite cards from Born of the Gods, from a draft perspective, are the enemy colored uncommons. They're very unassuming, but look to be really powerful in the right kind of deck:

Image.ashx
Image.ashx
Image.ashx
Image.ashx
Image.ashx
 
C

Crocodile

Member
I was looking for the Blue (with Green activation) member of that cycle and it was bugging me that WOTC seemingly left it out but it never registered with me that Kiora's Follower could be the last member since it was an actual multicolor card. Interesting. I think the card has a lot of potential for lower powered Cubes. Not sure it does anything in standard that the easier to cast Voyaging Satyr doesn't already do.

I've noticed that for an enchantment block, we haven't gotten a "Fertile Ground" (Nylea's Presence only fixes, not ramps) or "Enchantress" variant yet. Nor have I seen any Prison-type cards. What's up with that :(
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
bigkrev said:
What is even happening at Star City Games now. First they dump their sponsored team, now they are cutting talent loose like crazy.
Click to expand...

My best guess is that they've decided that they have too many people sponsored and/or on staff and just aren't realizing enough value from all of them.
 
K

kirblar

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
My best guess is that they've decided that they have too many people sponsored and/or on staff and just aren't realizing enough value from all of them.
Click to expand...
Yup. Ben mentioned on the MTGS forums (which are also essentially their CS forums now) that they're looking to hire 10+ people for inventory work. Money has to come from somewhere. The bonus payouts at the last PT likely didn't do jack to help their brand- it's not like you need to give them to people to get them to perform their best, and they don't translate into revenue.

Reuben isn't really surprising, since he's tonally off with the ESPN wannabe motif they're going with this year for their coverage team.
 
A

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
People finally found out they are completely overpriced and are buying singles elsewhere, so they can't afford to pay 10 people to do the job of 3 or 4...

SCG is the biggest rip-off in the industry. But I suppose if you need people to strategize for you...
 
B

bigkrev

Member
kirblar said:
Yup. Ben mentioned on the MTGS forums (which are also essentially their CS forums now) that they're looking to hire 10+ people for inventory work. Money has to come from somewhere. The bonus payouts at the last PT likely didn't do jack to help their brand- it's not like you need to give them to people to get them to perform their best, and they don't translate into revenue.

Reuben isn't really surprising, since he's tonally off with the ESPN wannabe motif they're going with this year for their coverage team.
Click to expand...

I guess it's the writers that strikes me as strange. They lost Gerry to WOTC, they already lost Martel and Reid now, and (now that I checked out the announcement from CFB) Huey and Costa will be leaving to write for CFB, and CFB also locked up Zvi.

SCG is the last site left that is charging for premium strategy articles- and they are loosing premium writers like crazy.
 
K

kirblar

Member
bigkrev said:
I guess it's the writers that strikes me as strange. They lost Gerry to WOTC, they already lost Martel and Reid now, and (now that I checked out the announcement from CFB) Huey and Costa will be leaving to write for CFB, and CFB also locked up Zvi.

SCG is the last site left that is charging for premium strategy articles- and they are loosing premium writers like crazy.
Click to expand...
Yup. It's a problem. But my premium ends up subsidized by tournament entry fees. :p
 
B

bigkrev

Member
kirblar said:
Yup. It's a problem. But my premium ends up subsidized by tournament entry fees. :p
Click to expand...

I stopped when they raised the price. I was fine paying 15(?) for 3 months at a time at various points. Now, they not only raised the monthly price up to 10 bucks, but they went porno site mode and have a 4 dollar week long pass.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
My SCG premium membership was just paid in October. I'm locked in at the lower rate, but even so. They have a few months to convince me it's worth re-upping again. Something tells me it won't be.
 
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