Support NeoGAF

[The Adder]

Yup, Shadowmoor and Eventide had these, leading to one of my favorite Commander games ever in which my friend, who had gotten cocky with his Rhys the Redeeemed deck, swung at me with like twenty elves on turn five and I was playing the new deck I built specifically to counter him and played this:

Yeah, that's mostly the same, effectively, as the card I wrote up, but it doesn't have the feel I was trying to convey.

Basically I don't want a card with two different effects based on mana spent that can be used together.

I want a card with one effect that improves based on the mana spent.

Granted that everything is Kicker, isn't that just Kicker (but with extra rules issues regarding the card's CMC)?

Kicker changes how much you pay to play the card (with the kicked effect). This one the card is always the same cost, but with the option of paying with a specific combination of mana to get a more powerful effect.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Yeah, that's mostly the same, effectively, as the card I wrote up, but it doesn't have the feel I was trying to convey.

Basically I don't want a card with two different effects based on mana spent that can be used together.

I want a card with one effect that improves based on the mana spent.

So like a Court Hussar or a Ribbons of Night, but possibly dipping into a third color?

 

[WanderingWind]

It's not too hard to play around that

Joking, fork.

Joking.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah. It's so fragile and so dumb. "Okay, no blocks? LOL GIANT GROWTH DOUBLE STRIKE GO."

"....Downfall your Dryad. Dick."

Playing against anything black means you need to board in Gods Willing and Ajani's Presence.

This is why Voice is so good in the deck, though. Even when they start leaving mana up to hit you with Blades and Downfall, they're still getting punished

 

[Scythesurge]

Anyone get a chance to draft Conspiracy yet?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

We did a Conspiracy draft at the shop tonight instead of regular FNM. I didn't win the games, but I did pull a foil Reflecting Pool, so that was sweet. It's a gorgeous foil too.

My deck was actually pretty sweet, just not quite good enough. I had the "Lizard Warrior" deck; five Lizard Warriors that cost 3 mana instead of 4, and each one has the "Squadron Hawk" clause. And I got a Hall of Triumph from a Journey pack that someone added to the draft with a Lore Seeker, plus a couple of Trumpet Blast. Pretty sick.

I backed it up with some defenders and a Vent Sentinel, and some blue control spells and card draw (Fact or Fiction - yeah baby!). It wasn't quite good enough to win (damn Silent Arbiter) but it was sweet.

 

[ultron87]

Urrghh I think I'm going to buy Coursers because I want to play the Constellation deck. Really should've been able to see that price jump coming. The fact that they're seeing Modern play makes me feel slightly less crappy about it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Playing against anything black means you need to board in Gods Willing and Ajani's Presence.

This is why Voice is so good in the deck, though. Even when they start leaving mana up to hit you with Blades and Downfall, they're still getting punished

I won the FNM off this exchange:

"Ultimate Price your duder"
"Ajani's Presence"
"Last Breath"
"Giant Growth in response to the Last Breath"
"..."
*people start laughing*
"I'll Dissolve that."

Some funny matches.

 

[bigkrev]

WORLD cup Qualifiers list is up http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtg/event/worldmagiccup/qualifiers#countries

Us tournaments are Santa Clara, Niles IL, and Philadelphia

Participation card

 

[OnPoint]

I don't like it as much as the real Geist art, but it'll be good to have that out there.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Urrghh I think I'm going to buy Coursers because I want to play the Constellation deck. Really should've been able to see that price jump coming. The fact that they're seeing Modern play makes me feel slightly less crappy about it.

I still have a foil courser. I guess I should think about unloading it.

 

[ElyrionX]

So being new to this Magic thing, is it right to say that only rares and mythic rares are potentially worth a bit of money whereas all commons and uncommons are essentially worthless and I shouldn't worry too much about them getting physically damaged?

 

[WanderingWind]

So being new to this Magic thing, is it right to say that only rares and mythic rares are potentially worth a bit of money whereas all commons and uncommons are essentially worthless and I shouldn't worry too much about them getting physically damaged?

Well, I mean, you might be right. But you never know what cards will be worth something someday, or you'll need a set of commons uncommons that can't be all fucked up.

 

[ultron87]

Generally, yeah. There are some "money" uncommons that might be worth a dollar or two because they are good and playable. Like right now Banishing Light is worth two bucks because it is played in a decent amount.

 

[Firemind]

Nice. I don't remember they handed out promos in the last two years. Glad I traded away all my Geists recently.

 

[OnPoint]

So being new to this Magic thing, is it right to say that only rares and mythic rares are potentially worth a bit of money whereas all commons and uncommons are essentially worthless and I shouldn't worry too much about them getting physically damaged?

Force of Will, Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, those are all uncommons. So you never know what cards will be worth some day.

Nice. I don't remember they handed out promos in the last two years. Glad I traded away all my Geists recently.

Eh, Batterskull has held its value.

 

[Firemind]

Force of Will is, like, Uncommon 5. Might as well be rare.

Batterskull was a GP promo, right? Seems like a lower printing run than WMCQs x3 all over the world.

 

[ultron87]

Apparently I've actually played enough over the last year to qualify for the WCQ. That seems odd. I was expecting it to be a higher threshold than "FNM somewhat often".

 

[OnPoint]

Anyway, I'm gonna build a Keranos Commander deck. Red/Blue has definitely been a color combo I've been thinking about for Commander, but I'm not sure what to do with it outside of possibly using Palinchron to generate infinite mana (which doesn't seem all that reliable outside of a late-game win con).

I was thinking about using blue to copy my opponents creatures while using red to steal them... but I'm not sure yet. So many possibilities.

 

[bigkrev]

Nice. I don't remember they handed out promos in the last two years. Glad I traded away all my Geists recently.

Vengevine was last years promo

 

[Yeef]

So being new to this Magic thing, is it right to say that only rares and mythic rares are potentially worth a bit of money whereas all commons and uncommons are essentially worthless and I shouldn't worry too much about them getting physically damaged?

Typically, but not always.

Serum Visions, for example, is a common, but goes for like $6.50, while there are tons of rares that go for a quarter or less.

What typically will determine price is tournament playability + availability.

Preordain is a better card than Serum Visions, but it's banned in modern and has been reprinted once, so it's much cheaper.

Colorless cards, like lands and artifacts, tend to be more "playable" because they can go into more decks, so they tend to command a higher price than a colored card of the same "rank," so to speak.

 

[ElyrionX]

Seems like the answer is not as simple as I was hoping it to be lol.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Seems like the answer is not as simple as I was hoping it to be lol.

You don't need to go through extreme measures like sleeving everything but you definitely shouldn't let them get destroyed.

 

[ultron87]

In general don't treat your cards roughly and hold onto ones that seem good, but there's also really no reason to hold on to boxes and boxes full of random draft fodder just in case there's some diamond in the rough in there. Especially today when they are printing several magnitudes more cards then they were when Serum Visions was printed.

 

[bigkrev]

Seems like the answer is not as simple as I was hoping it to be lol.

In Gatecrash, a set just over a year old, 3 of the 25 most valuable cards in the set are uncommons (http://store.channelfireball.com/catalog/magic_singles-return_to_ravnica_block-gatecrash/674/?filter[256]=Regular)

In Dragon's Maze, one of the 5 most valuable cards in the set is actually one of the free tokens you probably throw out (http://store.channelfireball.com/ca...turn_to_ravnica_block-dragons_maze/709?filter[256]=Regular)

ect.

 

[The Adder]

So like a Court Hussar or a Ribbons of Night, but possibly dipping into a third color?

No, those still aren't it, but they're closer given that the require a specific type of mana to cast raw.

Court Hussar is a penalty for not paying with a certain type of mana and Ribbons of Night is again two effects, one of which you get from using a certain type of mana.

I'm talking about:

Card effect when cast with the required mana type.

Improved version of the card effect when cast with an additional specific mana type

A different improved improved version of the card effect when cast with a different additional specific mana type

Both improvements when cast with both additional specific mana types.

Pretty much it templates a bit like Overload (which I actually used as the basis).

The card I wrote out up there was basically:

Cast normally: Overpriced Murder
Cast with white: Instant Day of Judgement for 5
Cast with red: Expensive Hero's Downfall that monored can splash for
Cast with all three: Instant Day of Judgement that also hits Planeswalkers

Though the point wouldn't be to make cards that already exist, it's just the first kind of example that came to mind for me.

 

[narcosis219]

No, those still aren't it, but they're closer given that the require a specific type of mana to cast raw.

Court Hussar is a penalty for not paying with a certain type of mana and Ribbons of Night is again two effects, one of which you get from using a certain type of mana.

I'm talking about:

Card effect when cast with the required mana type.

Improved version of the card effect when cast with an additional specific mana type

A different improved improved version of the card effect when cast with a different additional specific mana type

Both improvements when cast with both additional specific mana types.

The card I wrote out up there was basically:

Cast normally: Overpriced Murder
Cast with white: Instant Day of Judgement for 5
Cast with red: Expensive Hero's Downfall that monored can splash for
Cast with all three: Instant Day of Judgement that also hits Planeswalkers

Though the point wouldn't be to make cards that already exist, it's just the first kind of example that came to mind for me.

5 is a steal for instant speed wipe

 

[ultron87]

So like Firespout but with a third color and a default mode.

 

[Hero]

No, those still aren't it, but they're closer given that the require a specific type of mana to cast raw.

Court Hussar is a penalty for not paying with a certain type of mana and Ribbons of Night is again two effects, one of which you get from using a certain type of mana.

I'm talking about:

Card effect when cast with the required mana type.

Improved version of the card effect when cast with an additional specific mana type

A different improved improved version of the card effect when cast with a different additional specific mana type

Both improvements when cast with both additional specific mana types.

Pretty much it templates a bit like Overload (which I actually used as the basis).

The card I wrote out up there was basically:

Cast normally: Overpriced Murder
Cast with white: Instant Day of Judgement for 5
Cast with red: Expensive Hero's Downfall that monored can splash for
Cast with all three: Instant Day of Judgement that also hits Planeswalkers

Though the point wouldn't be to make cards that already exist, it's just the first kind of example that came to mind for me.

I like kicker too

 

[The Adder]

5 is a steal for instant speed wipe

I'm aware. I never said I was good at making cards. Just wrote out an example to get the point across on what I was trying to describe.

So like Firespout but with a third color and a default mode.

Yes.

I like kicker too

Well 1:

Granted that everything is Kicker

And 2:

Kicker changes how much you pay to play the card (with the kicked effect). This one the card is always the same cost, but with the option of paying with a specific combination of mana to get a more powerful effect.

 

[The Adder]

Bah, hit quote instead of edit

 

[gerg]

I don't think there's a way to represent the effect you want mechanically, The Adder. What you're looking at is a card that reads something like:

Spell
4B
Destroy target creature.
If 3WB was used to cast this spell, destroy all creatures.
If 2WRB was used to cast this spell, destroy all creatures and Planeswalkers.

 

[narcosis219]

I don't think there's a way to represent the effect you want mechanically, The Adder. What you're looking at is a card that reads something like:

Spell
4B
Destroy target creature on the field
If 3WB was used to cast this spell, change all instances of target to each.
If 2WRB was used to cast this spell change all instances of creature to creature or Planeswalker.

That just looks like a mess.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't think there's a way to represent the effect you want mechanically, The Adder. What you're looking at is a card that reads something like:

Spell
4B
Destroy target creature on the field
If 3WB was used to cast this spell, change all instances of target to each.
If 2WRB was used to cast this spell change all instances of creature to creature or Planeswalker.

Well no, they could do three color, two of which are hybrid like they did in Alara Reborn (ugh)

Like

B G/W G/W

 

[gerg]

Well no, they could do three color, two of which are hybrid like they did in Alara Reborn (ugh)

Like

B G/W G/W

The Adder said that his suggestion had a CMC of 5, not 3.

Also, I guess with your suggestion there'd need to be a mechanical or flavour-related representation of the fourth colour of the card.

Edit: Wait, no, I'm incorrect on that one.

 

[The Adder]

I don't think there's a way to represent the effect you want mechanically, The Adder. What you're looking at is a card that reads something like:

Spell
4B
Destroy target creature.
If 3WB was used to cast this spell, destroy all creatures.
If 2WRB was used to cast this spell, destroy all creatures and Planeswalkers.

They'd either have to make a mana symbol that represented it or they could bring back the hybrid color/colorless symbol. So

2 W/1 R/1 B

 

[gerg]

They'd either have to make a mana symbol that represented it or they could bring back the hybrid color/colorless symbol. So

2 W/1 R/1 B

I think the problem with this type of design is that it must be very difficult to create effects that are costed sensibly in all three scenarios. Right now the card you've created reads "3WB: Destroy all creatures/2WRB: Destroy all creatures and Planeswalkers" because no one would pay 4B to destroy a creature, at which point you either get rid of the original effect and have a split card or you lower the original CMC and have created Kicker.

 

[SigmasonicX]

OK, let me try my hand at this.

I'd like to see a mechanic wherein the card's effect changed based on the type of mana used to pay for it. They could make new mana symbols for it like they did Phyrexian mana. And it'd be interesting in, say, a wedge block.

For example:

Wedge Bore

B(R)(W)2

Destroy target creature on the field

If white mana was used to cast this spell, change all instances of target to each

If red mana was used to cast this spell change all instances of creature to creature or Planeswalker

Wedge Bore - 4B
Instant
Destroy target creature.
If R was spent to cast Wedge Bore, you may instead destroy target creature or planeswalker.
If W was spent to cast Wedge Bore, change its text by replacing all instances of "target" with "each" and "or" with "and."

 

[The Adder]

I think the problem with this type of design is that it must be very difficult to create effects that are costed sensibly in all three scenarios. Right now the card you've created reads "3WB: Destroy all creatures/2WRB: Destroy all creatures and Planeswalkers" because no one would pay 4B to destroy a creature, at which point you either get rid of the original effect and have a split card or you lower the original CMC and have created Kicker.

I agree on the difficulty making cards for such a mechanic, but I also think there is space to make interesting and fun cards in this kind of mechanic.

The trick is making the card read

Do something good but not great for this price in this color

Augment with something good but not great for this price from another color making the card great for its price.

Augment with something else good but not great for this price from another color, making the card cheap for what it does.

 

[Crocodile]

A lot of these "color of mana you use to cast" cards seem more clunky and needlessly complex than fun :/

 

[The Adder]

So using SigmasonicX's templating, which I think is pretty good, I believe I have an example of the type ofcard I mean.

Wedge Passage - 3W
Instant
Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to you or creatures you control this turn.
If R was spent to cast Wedge Passage, you may instead prevent all combat damage to creatures you control this turn. Deal damage equal to damage you received this turn distributed between any number of creatures your opponents control
If U was spent to cast Wedge Passage, draw a number of cards equal to unblocked attacking creatures this turn.

It would never see play in a monowhite deck, but in multi colored decks there's good reason to cast it in any combination.

 

[bigkrev]

So, we drafted Conspiricy at FNM tonight. While the actual draft was not as bad as I feared (we didn't get any cards that let people add packs, or swap cards in packs, or look at future boosters), the gameplay afterwards was terrible. I ended up loosing via decking in a game where I never was milled a single time- with the exception of 2 instances of Landcycling, I drew my entire G/W deck over the course of the game. It's basically a format with the ability to Durdle like in EDH, but with none of the game-ending Haymakers. I gained something like 25 life over the course of the game! Our 1 game took about 2 hours, and everyone basically died within a turn of eachother.

I might do it a second time, but I really did not enjoy my time with the format.

 

[ThLunarian]

Everyone in my play group who has a cube is very reluctant to even TRY putting in conspiracies.

This is incredibly disappointing to me because I want to draft a Worldknit deck.

I mean... I look at it like this. If you open your first pack with Ancestral Recall, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Library of Alexandria, and the best Conspiracy in the entire set, is anyone REALLY going to take the Conspiracy over any of the other cards? I really doubt it, and that's why I don't think they're overpowered.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I might do it a second time, but I really did not enjoy my time with the format.

When we did Conspiracy last night, we played two games, each of which only lasted about 45 minutes. I think it comes down to how the players the game choose to play it, not necessarily the format itself.

 

[Yeef]

Did a conspiracy draft tonight. No one seemed to pick Conspiracies highly (or at all) except for me.

Managed to get 2 Brago's Favors, 1 Secret Summoning, 1 Muzzio's Preparations and 4 Shoreline Ravagers which were, effectively, 4/5 fliers for 4 mana that searched up 3 more. It was pretty insane.

I also had the only Power Play, so I went first each game.

I agree on the difficulty making cards for such a mechanic, but I also think there is space to make interesting and fun cards in this kind of mechanic.

The trick is making the card read

Do something good but not great for this price in this color

Augment with something good but not great for this price from another color making the card great for its price.

Augment with something else good but not great for this price from another color, making the card cheap for what it does.

It looks like this is what you want:

 

[The Adder]

It looks like this is what you want:

Nah. Those are much further from what I'm talking about than the Ravnica cards, or even kicker, were.

 

[ultron87]

Everyone in my play group who has a cube is very reluctant to even TRY putting in conspiracies.

This is incredibly disappointing to me because I want to draft a Worldknit deck.

I mean... I look at it like this. If you open your first pack with Ancestral Recall, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Library of Alexandria, and the best Conspiracy in the entire set, is anyone REALLY going to take the Conspiracy over any of the other cards? I really doubt it, and that's why I don't think they're overpowered.

If that Conspiracy is Worldknit and you're in a powered cube I think you absolutely take Worldknit. Because then you can take the best of the super powerful cards in every other pack you get.

 

[OnPoint]

Laziest flavor text ever?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

If that Conspiracy is Worldknit and you're in a powered cube I think you absolutely take Worldknit. Because then you can take the best of the super powerful cards in every other pack you get.

The only card I can think of that would compete with Worldknit on power level in cube is maybe Black Lotus.

 

[bigkrev]

The only card I can think of that would compete with Worldknit on power level in cube is maybe Black Lotus.

Sol Ring