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Magic: the GAFering |OT2|

A

alternade

Member
kirblar said:
The Predator/Transformers art was loathed in their market research.

Well, hello Value Town...

EN_gwk5wl6sl7.png
Click to expand...

Image.ashx


"I'm all for the reprinting of planeswalkers, but why on earth was Liliana Vess chosen for M15 over Liliana of the Veil, when the former is underpowered casual fodder and the latter is a constructed-playable, multi-format staple in desperate need of a reprint

Maro: Because I believe development thinks Liliana of the Veil is too strong for Standard."

Something about makes me upset. Why are they wanting to cater to new players so badly? We haven't have a degenerate card in ages.
 
K

kirblar

Member
The problem is not Liliana of the Veil. She clearly was slotted for this set and pulled, based on Garruk and the Veil being in. It's Theros block. Look at standard right now.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeef said:
EN_0a9csysita.png


Looks like they went back to the old-style slivers.
Click to expand...

Hell yeah. They should've just sucked it up and reprinted the 2014 versions with non-stupid ass art.

alternade said:
"I'm all for the reprinting of planeswalkers, but why on earth was Liliana Vess chosen for M15 over Liliana of the Veil, when the former is underpowered casual fodder and the latter is a constructed-playable, multi-format staple in desperate need of a reprint

Maro: Because I believe development thinks Liliana of the Veil is too strong for Standard."

Something about makes me upset. Why are they wanting to cater to new players so badly? We haven't have a degenerate card in ages.
Click to expand...

Core set should be where they cater to new players, to be honest. Now, when they put shitty mythics in real sets for the EDH crowd....that annoys me.
 
L

Lucario

Member
alternade said:
"I'm all for the reprinting of planeswalkers, but why on earth was Liliana Vess chosen for M15 over Liliana of the Veil, when the former is underpowered casual fodder and the latter is a constructed-playable, multi-format staple in desperate need of a reprint

Maro: Because I believe development thinks Liliana of the Veil is too strong for Standard."

Something about makes me upset. Why are they wanting to cater to new players so badly? We haven't have a degenerate card in ages.
Click to expand...

not wanting to completely ruin a format =\= catering to new players
 
A

alternade

Member
kirblar said:
The problem is not Liliana of the Veil. She clearly was slotted for this set and pulled, based on Garruk and the Veil being in. It's Theros block. Look at standard right now.
Click to expand...

I understand that
Turn 1 Thoughseize
Turn 2 Duress/Brain Maggot
Turn 3 LOTV
would have been insane, but I would have favored that over the printing of a card that sees play nowhere but EDH. Im just tired of hearing "X card was canned/pulled/replaced because we felt it was too strong" then getting substandard junk in its place. I just want them to push the game further and let the cards fall where they may.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Most of the good Mono-Black cards leave in a few months anyway. What are we left with after rotation - Thoughtseize, Hero's Downfall, Merchant and nothing else? Let Standard burn for 3 months :p
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
alternade said:
I understand that
Turn 1 Thoughseize
Turn 2 Duress/Brain Maggot
Turn 3 LOTV
would have been insane, but I would have favored that over the printing of a card that sees play nowhere but EDH. Im just tired of hearing "X card was canned/pulled/replaced because we felt it was too strong" then getting substandard junk in its place. I just want them to push the game further and let the cards fall where they may.
Click to expand...

I agree with the bolded. With all of their work on the sets, and all of those brains, you can't tell me something like making Emarra or Archangel's Light at the very least PLAYABLE was an impossible goal. Oh, Emarra is too powerful? Shit, let's switch things around and make her wholly unusuable.

They can do better in that regard, though I see why they don't want LotV in this set. It sort of sucks that her price is only going to skyrocket now though.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
WanderingWind said:
I agree with the bolded. With all of their work on the sets, and all of those brains, you can't tell me something like making Emarra or Archangel's Light at the very least PLAYABLE was an impossible goal. Oh, Emarra is too powerful? Shit, let's switch things around and make her wholly unusuable.

They can do better in that regard, though I see why they don't want LotV in this set. It sort of sucks that her price is only going to skyrocket now though.
Click to expand...

Emarra wasn't a victim of being too powerful. She was a victim of WotC being a slave to cycles in Ravnica block.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
divisionbyzorro said:
Emarra wasn't a victim of being too powerful. She was a victim of WotC being a slave to cycles in Ravnica block.
Click to expand...

It was both. Her ability and Voices were swapped and hers was changed 'massaged' in a downward trajectory.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...-just-like-to-say-that-im-very-happy-that-you

EDIT: Interesting, another article from MaRo suggests that Huntmaster may have something to do with the legendary rule change being brought up initially. He wanted it legendary, but because of the way the rule worked, it might not have seen much play.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/180
 
A

alternade

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
Emarra wasn't a victim of being too powerful. She was a victim of WotC being a slave to cycles in Ravnica block.
Click to expand...

Ok but they had to have known that she was COMPLETELY USELESS in every sense of the word. Unless they are making cards the day of release they should be able to step back and say "Can we do better?" I'm not saying every card has to be a multi-format allstar, but they keep dropping the ball.

And LOTV is very Core Set friendly imo.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
alternade said:
And LOTV is very Core Set friendly imo.
Click to expand...

Not right now, it isn't. Not with Thoughtseize, Maggot, Duress, and soon Waste Not. That would mono-black troll deck hell.

Though, if they restricted Thoughtseize and reprinted LotV instead...that would've been alright with me.
 
A

alternade

Member
WanderingWind said:
Not right now, it isn't. Not with Thoughtseize, Maggot, Duress, and soon Waste Not. That would mono-black troll deck hell.

Though, if they restricted Thoughtseize and reprinted LotV instead...that would've been alright with me.
Click to expand...

They wouldnt reprint her without an insurance policy in this current standard. Something like

1WW
Shroud
You have Shroud
2/1

I dont know. Im of the opinion that when something becomes too powerful, the meta will find ways to stop it.
 
N

noquarter

Member
Totally agree with the laziness they show when switching stuff like Emerra and VoR. Really, that was the best they could do? Its like the already minted a press plate for the wording and couldn't afford to redo it. Just seems so lazy.

alternade said:
Ok but they had to have known that she was COMPLETELY USELESS in every sense of the word. Unless they are making cards the day of release they should be able to step back and say "Can we do better?" I'm not saying every card has to be a multi-format allstar, but they keep dropping the ball.

And LOTV is very Core Set friendly imo.
Click to expand...
Don't know that I would say LotV is newbie friendly, you have to discard a card to add a counter. New players hate discarding their own cards. She also didn't see that much play in Standard when she was there for some reason, even though there was a reanimator deck that could use her use her (I put here in there, nice emptying your hand and messing them up)

She should be reprinted though before her price gets too crazy.

And to the FoW on MODO question, looks like $30 is a decent buy point. MTGOTraders had them at $25 for a day, then up to $35, then down to $26, then up to $29. I bought at $27 and don't feel too bad. If it gets to the low $20's I'll probably buy another playset or two to sell in a year or so.
 
J

Jaeyden

Member
noquarter said:
New players hate discarding their own cards. She also didn't see that much play in Standard when she was there for some reason, even though there was a reanimator deck that could use her use her (I put here in there, nice emptying your hand and messing them up)
Click to expand...

In addition to the players discarding, Lingering Souls was a thing and it basically just shuts Lili up.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Hey remember when everyone was all excited about Thoughtseize being reprinted?

And then Thoughtseize got reprinted and everyone was like "ooohhh uhm"
 
W

Wynnebeck

Banned
divisionbyzorro said:
We were excited because it brought the price down to something reasonable, and we hoped that the Standard environment could handle it.
Click to expand...

Instead we get fingers crossed anytime someone playing Black drops a Black source on turn one. My butt clenches so hard. Also God's Beard, are you going to stay Control past the block cycle? I don't think we'll have enough staples to justify running it anymore and I might just transfer to Orzhov Midrange.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
alternade said:
And LOTV is very Core Set friendly imo.
Click to expand...

Liliana is the only Planeswalker where it is sometimes correct to not activate her on a turn. She is very Spikey, and not the greatest fit for the core set.

Now that we see they got the message on the terrible Sliver art, I really hope these 5 new Slivers actually play like Slivers, unlike the last batch. It would redeem them, but I doubt they would do it :/
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Some days you just can board perfectly, but not draw the answer. Running Modern and I ran into elfball. Sided in 4 Anger of the Gods. Drew none of them, got 'hoofed. Okay, fine. Ran into my own damn zombie deck, got podded to death because I couldn't draw electrolyze, bolt or anger.

So, I said fuck playing fair and switched to my infect deck and drew two wins and a "disconnection."

Fucking fair decks are some bullshit. Imma start playing boggles.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
alternade said:
They wouldnt reprint her without an insurance policy in this current standard. Something like

1WW
Shroud
You have Shroud
2/1

I dont know. Im of the opinion that when something becomes too powerful, the meta will find ways to stop it.
Click to expand...

Something like this perhaps?

Image.ashx
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Guys, "Liliana of the Veil is too powerful for Standard" is a completely separate issue from making the game friendly for beginners. The former concerns not making mono-black even more dominant than it is now in tournaments. Stop conflating the two.

In any case, it's nice to see them go back to the old sliver art. As for old sliver abilities, I'd really prefer not. When my friend brings out his new sliver deck, we have a hard enough time as it is keeping track of what the slivers are, especially when he brings out one of his old slivers and then a sliver gets cloned or taken over by another player.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Lilliana of the Veil was probably never going to show up in M15.

Even assuming LOTV was really pulled due to MBD, that would make her a lock for M16, so why worry?
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Angry Grimace said:
Lilliana of the Veil was probably never going to show up in M15.

Even assuming LOTV was really pulled due to MBD, that would make her a lock for M16, so why worry?
Click to expand...

If the thought is she's too powerful for standard, and it pervades into M16 design, we'll see her again in MM2 worst case. And I think MM2 will have a larger print run (while leaving out 'Goyf and Bob).
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
OnPoint said:
If the thought is she's too powerful for standard, and it pervades into M16 design, we'll see her again in MM2 worst case. And I think MM2 will have a larger print run (while leaving out 'Goyf and Bob).
Click to expand...

It's not that she is too powerful for standard in general I think. She's probably too good in this particular one.
 
J

JulianImp

Member
Sinatar said:
Rare?

Eeeehhhhhh.
Click to expand...

Well, it's cheaper to activate than the assembly-worker land, uses a relevant creature type and can create multicolored mana for sliver tribal decks, but it does have a downside in that you can't get the land started by itself, and the tokens themselves are quite underwhelming on non-sliver decks.

It's still weird that they'd put five random slivers, their land and a mythic in a set with no other supporting cards, since I thought they cared a lot about limited card interactions. That is, unless the slivers are good enough on their own, with slivers of other colors, or multiples of the same sliver card. Even then, getting a sliver card as a starting player would probably feel bad, since you'd only get a few months to play with the M14 slivers and mutavault before they rotate, and then you're stuck with seven sliver cards.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
OnPoint said:
She absolutely is too powerful for this one. But it's all "ifs" at this point.
Click to expand...

I would have been surprised if they had gone with LOTV this close to her rotating out. I don't think she's too complicated for a Core Set, either, though. But I do think people who really like Modern and/or Legacy are happy to blow Standard up for the sake of getting pet reprints.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I would have been surprised if they had gone with LOTV this close to her rotating out. I don't think she's too complicated for a Core Set, either, though. But I do think people who really like Modern and/or Legacy are happy to blow Standard up for the sake of getting pet reprints.
Click to expand...

I think they're very well aware of her already inflated price that hasn't hit its ceiling and want to bring her value down a tad for people interested in playing her in 2 out of 3 formats, and she's not so powerful that you have to actively avoid printing her again (JTMS).
 
Y

Yeef

Member
JulianImp said:
Well, it's cheaper to activate than the assembly-worker land, uses a relevant creature type and can create multicolored mana for sliver tribal decks, but it does have a downside in that you can't get the land started by itself, and the tokens themselves are quite underwhelming on non-sliver decks.

It's still weird that they'd put five random slivers, their land and a mythic in a set with no other supporting cards, since I thought they cared a lot about limited card interactions. That is, unless the slivers are good enough on their own, with slivers of other colors, or multiples of the same sliver card. Even then, getting a sliver card as a starting player would probably feel bad, since you'd only get a few months to play with the M14 slivers and mutavault before they rotate, and then you're stuck with seven sliver cards.
Click to expand...
With the exceptions of Galerider, Groundshaker and Construct, the slivers in M14 were fine limited creatures even if you weren't going for the tribal stuff. I'm guessing the same will be true in M15.
 
H

Hero

Member
LotV was rumored to have been in the core set when Dark Realms came out. I believe she was absolutely due for m15 here but the fact that monoblack is already so strong development gave it the thumbs down.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Hero said:
LotV was rumored to have been in the core set when Dark Realms came out. I believe she was absolutely due for m15 here but the fact that monoblack is already so strong development gave it the thumbs down.
Click to expand...

"truenamenemesis reblogged this from burnwillow and added:
Black players, always wanting to have their cake and eat it too. And have everyone else’s cake."
 
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