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[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Still think they should give the Norse plane a shot

But I could see how it might have a similar feel to Khans.

How do you even pronounce that in english, must sound dumb af.

For reference https://translate.google.at/?hl=de#en/de/immersturm you can click the volume button for a pronounciation

 

[SigmasonicX]

Blocks from now on will be half and half new and returns

spiritkhan asked: Thank you for going back to Innistrad! (said everyone). But wow, returning to a world 2 times in a row.

The current plan is about half the time we visit new worlds and about half the time we revisit old worlds. Theros and Tarkir were new. Zendikar and Innistrad are returns. We have plenty of new *and* returning worlds in the pipeline.

SoI was planned as the next fall set

wobbles asked: I'm kind of surprised that Innistrad wasn't a Fall set to tie in with Halloween again?

Under the old three-set block model, it *was* a fall set.

Since there was a question about this here, the announcement timing was indeed to tie into Halloween

grimlockandload asked: So I know everybody is freaking out about Shadows Over Innistrad in general, but I wanted to make sure to give you guys some kudos for making the announcement on Halloween, specifically. That was a nice touch.

Thank you. Details do matter.

 

[kirblar]

Vryn isn't happening soon, they would have developed it more.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Vryn isn't happening soon, they would have developed it more.

Unless it gets invaded by Phyrexia by the time we first see it.

 

[traveler]

If they're going to do half and half, I'd prefer 1 new, 1 old, 1 new, 1 old, etc. over getting a half a year without a new plane.

 

[Wulfric]

The next block will probably be about Liliana, since she's conspicuously absent from Oath of the Gatewatch, but the Fall 2016 block (Lock-Stock) has a good chance of being Kaladesh.

Lol, I took a nap and look what happened! Awesome idea to reveal this on Halloween. Honestly, this announcement works for me just as well. Hopefully we find out more about Liliana and the Raven Man. And presumably Nahiri is hanging out on Innistrad doing who knows what. I get the feeling we'll see Sorin head the first set and Liliana for the second. Maybe a standard legal Nahiri is on the horizon? She doesn't seem popular enough to carry a set unless she begins to play a bigger role.

I wonder why WotC is releasing back to back Return sets. Maybe they think Innistrad can break the spring set curse?

 

[kirblar]

Tamiyo/Tiblat/Liliana probably all getting new PW cards.

Also, flip Werewolfwalker likely.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Why didn't they make Tibalt the red flipwalker in origins?

He has a funny origin story and human on the upside devil on the downside would have been rad and it'd have been possible to make him be a 2cmc walker.

When I think about it, Jace's entire schtick of loot and flashback would have fit tibalt perfectly but no gotta give it blue ofc.

 

[OnPoint]

Tamiyo/Tiblat/Liliana probably all getting new PW cards.

Also, flip Werewolfwalker likely.

I would be shocked if Tamiyo got one here unless they tie her into the story somehow. Tibalt almost certainly will. And Lili? I wish they'd just do LotV.

 

[Yeef]

I'm sure they'll take the opportunity to squeeze in the cards the missed the first go-round, like the GW Human uncommon lord.

Vryn isn't happening soon, they would have developed it more.

It's less developed than Kaladesh, but more developed than Regatha. We know the general They work 2 years out, so having it semi-developed in Origins would fit. That would put it 2 years out from Origins. It'd also mean in the 4-block span we'd have all 5 of the primary walkers as the face of a set. Gideon and Nissa in Zendikar. Liliana in Innistrad, Chandra in Kaldesh and Jace in Vryn.

Why didn't they make Tibalt the red flipwalker in origins?

He has a funny origin story and human on the upside devil on the downside would have been rad and it'd have been possible to make him be a 2cmc walker.

When I think about it, Jace's entire schtick of loot and flashback would have fit tibalt perfectly but no gotta give it blue ofc.

The whole schtick of Origins was that they were doing the origin stories of the 5 main "heroes" of the story. Tibalt is very much a villain (and a minor one at that). Like everyone else, I'm sure he'll get a BR card in the next block.

 

[Jhriad]

I mean I figured Snapcaster was off the table due to development (boo-urns) but I did forgot about the promo. That being said, promos are NOT enough to meaningfully increase supplies of cards that are over-priced. WOTC seems to think this rather often and its stupid as all fuck

Snapcaster is going to drive MM2017 since demand for Goyf looks to be slackening. Gotta use that reprint equity wisely.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The whole schtick of Origins was that they were doing the origin stories of the 5 main "heroes" of the story. Tibalt is very much a villain (and a minor one at that). Like everyone else, I'm sure he'll get a BR card in the next block.

Jace and Liliana aren't heroes in my book, the former mindraping people and the latter making deals not only with devils but also pretty much the prime evil of mtg.

Not to mention that if they push Liliana in the hero direction they push Garruk in the villain direction even further. Garruk should "ascend" and get an 8 mana version preferably in colours that can actually ramp.

 

[Jhriad]

Not to mention that if they push Liliana in the hero direction they push Garruk in the villain direction.

Garruk was already something of a villian. He's basically a shitty Planeswalker version of Kraven. I mean, the whole confrontation with Liliana is his own fault. Lili is minding her own business when one of Garruk's beasts attacks her, she defends herself and kills the beast, then Garruk gets all butthurt that she killed it. He then hunts her down and attempts to kill her and she's only able to survive by using the Chain Veil.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Garruk was already something of a villian. He's basically a shitty Planeswalker version of Kraven. I mean, the whole confrontation with Liliana is his own fault. Lili is minding her own business when one of Garruk's beasts attacks her, she defends herself and kills the beast, then Garruk gets all butthurt that she killed it.

Lili is a necromancer the antithesis to the nature Garruk embodies they were always bound to conflict whenever they meet.

He also technically saved her by being a vessel for the curse. Before the curse he was your typical green hunter afterwards they pushed him in a stupid yet kinda awesome direction, I wonder where he falls in power levels atm. Stronger than Sarkhan and Sorin?

 

[Angry Grimace]

It makes me laugh when people keep going on about "keeping Hasbro off their backs" or whatever. MTG makes dumb amounts of money and made dumb amounts of money at every level of its popularity because they're selling pieces of cardboard.

Also, I just beat some dude with Tokens and he got salty and walked away so I had to sit there and time-out. That's not even any kind of actual "revenge." That's just making people wait (for nothing, I can multi queue on MTGO)

 

[Yeef]

Jace and Liliana aren't heroes in my book, the former mindraping people and the latter making deals not only with devils but also pretty much the prime evil of mtg.

Not to mention that if they push Liliana in the hero direction they push Garruk in the villain direction even further. Garruk should "ascend" and get an 8 mana version preferably in colours that can actually ramp.

You're thinking of the wrong definition of "hero."

"Protagonist," not "Moral Paragon."

 

[Haines]

What should i expect in the other half if this block? Like another 150 cards? Or nobody knows until a month before it hits?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You're thinking of the wrong definition of "hero."

"Protagonist," not "Moral Paragon."

Well if we have established that then Tibalt could have become the origin walker

 

[The Technomancer]

What should i expect in the other half if this block? Like another 150 cards? Or nobody knows until a month before it hits?

180 but yeah.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Lili is a necromancer the antithesis to the nature Garruk embodies they were always bound to conflict whenever they meet.

He also technically saved her by being a vessel for the curse. Before the curse he was your typical green hunter afterwards they pushed him in a stupid yet kinda awesome direction, I wonder where he falls in power levels atm. Stronger than Sarkhan and Sorin?

Garruk is supposedly the strongest new planeswalker, in terms of combat. From what I gather, he's over his cursed mental illness and isn't affected by it in combat anymore. Whether his moniker is still Apex Predator or now Worldslayer, I'm not sure.

All things point to him being the best planeswalker in terms of combat, though. I think only the old walkers -- Ugin and Bolas -- can match his might. Hell, his entire theme in both gameplay and story is that he's the planeswalker-slayer.

 

[Ashodin]

You mean... the Legendkiller?

RANDY ORTON!!!!!!!

OUTTA NOWHERE!!!!

 

[Yeef]

Well if we have established that then Tibalt could have become the origin walker

Tibalt's character doesn't lend him toward being the protagonist of the sort of story Wizards wants to tell (i.e. one aimed at teenagers to sell a card game). He's a Devil-man that's obsessed with torturing other people. It doesn't make for a good hero. He also skews black-red or mono-black rather than mono-red in terms of flavor.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Garruk is supposedly the strongest new planeswalker, in terms of combat. From what I gather, he's over his cursed mental illness and isn't affected by it in combat anymore. Whether his moniker is still Apex Predator or now Worldslayer, I'm not sure.

All things point to him being the best planeswalker in terms of combat, though. I think only the old walkers -- Ugin and Bolas -- can match his might. Hell, his entire theme in both gameplay and story is that he's the planeswalker-slayer.

Well he doesn't seem bothered by it anymore but that could be just an after effect of the curse. I wonder how he compares to Sorin who's an old walker and the newest Sarkhan who's an oddity.

It'd be interesting to have a human walker become powerful enough to slot into an 8CMC walker having him stand on par with Ugin and Bolas.
He'd be suited for that role since he's not a good guy who cares much for the multiverse and because that's where his path would ultimately lead.

 

[noquarter]

180 but yeah.

I thought both blocks were going to be roughly the same size. They are just doing a ' big' small set for the other half? The second block is what will be opened first though from here on out in drafts though, right?

Tibalt's character doesn't lend him toward being the protagonist of the sort of story Wizards wants to tell (i.e. one aimed at teenagers to sell a card game). He's a Devil-man that's obsessed with torturing other people. It doesn't make for a good hero. He also skews black-red or mono-black rather than mono-red in terms of flavor.

From how you describe him he sounds like a Planeswalker that would sell towards teenagers though. Sounds like he could be super angsty.

 

[charlequin]

Me too. I'm worried Innistrad is just going to have the Fairy Tale plane stuff wedged into the crevices and they're not going to bother with an actual plane with that concept.

I don't think they actually overlap all that much. Innistrad doesn't really have space for princesses, or tricksy faeries, or curses broken with a kiss. There's certainly some overlap but still less with Innistrad than, say, Lorwyn, and Rosewater's already said the latter isn't too much to do this type of block.

The problem with Innistrad is that with Avacyn back...all of the monsters are under control.

It seems pretty likely to me from the teaser (an angel feather turning bloody, then Avacyn's symbol bending like vampires do to a cross) that someone kills Avacyn, resulting in a resurgence of the monsters.

It makes me laugh when people keep going on about "keeping Hasbro off their backs" or whatever. MTG makes dumb amounts of money and made dumb amounts of money at every level of its popularity because they're selling pieces of cardboard.

Back before Magic's big resurgence, Magic R&D members got sacked every year in WotC's big holiday layoffs. That doesn't happen anymore after Zendikar.

I would be shocked if Tamiyo got one here unless they tie her into the story somehow.

Yeah there's like no reason to go back to Tamiyo here, she's super tangential to the story and she'd make more sense to bring back in some other block when she's visiting a new plane to investigate.

 

[WanderingWind]

We're years away from the fairy tale set, then. Ah well. If SOI is more RTR and less BFZ, I'll be happy.

 

[traveler]

Where did the story of this fairy tale set originate? And how is it supposed to be different than Lorwyn? Just curious.

 

[jph139]

Can't say I'm excited about another Return, but I actually liked Innistrad, so I'm more interested than I was with BFZ. Though I'm more likely to be let down, too...

 

[charlequin]

I thought both blocks were going to be roughly the same size. They are just doing a ' big' small set for the other half? The second block is what will be opened first though from here on out in drafts though, right?

As things currently stand: blocks are a "large" set of 269 cards followed by a "small" set of 185 cards (at least by default.) You draft 111 (three packs of the first set) when the large set only is out, and 221 (two of the small set followed by one of the large set) once the whole block is out.

Where did the story of this fairy tale set originate? And how is it supposed to be different than Lorwyn? Just curious.

Rosewater started answering a lot of questions about it in the last few years (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) including the always-suggestive "hey do you want to see this thing we're probably already doing" question. He also started answering some questions about stuff like ways to show off red's emotional side without only using anger that would come up in doing such a block. It's a relatively "in" theme now with stuff like Into The Woods, Once Upon a Time, and Fables and it's an easily understandable top-down theme, which is something WotC is very into.

 

[sgjackson]

saw somebody postulate that the set title is a shadow over innsmouth reference and the eldrazi are traveling to innistrad

zero chance this happens but it's a fun theory anyway

 

[kirblar]

saw somebody postulate that the set title is a shadow over innsmouth reference and the eldrazi are traveling to innistrad

zero chance this happens but it's a fun theory anyway

Emrakul going to Innistrad is certainly a way to get a story there that deals with the fact that the plane should be at peace.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Eldrazi in Innistrad would be a great way to better portray their Lovecraftian aspects. I could imagine that Sorin put up some kind of barrier which prevents them from rushing in, but they instead slowly seep in through people going mad.

 

[WanderingWind]

No more Eldrazi, please. They didn't even have enough good ideas to fit a single set, much less 4. Honestly, they sort of dorked up the Eldrazi to the point where they're more silly than monstrous. Mama Emmy can come back later when the stains of 1/1 Eldrazi are lost to in the skein of nostalgia and memory.

Werewolves. Ghosts. Vampires. Zombies. These things carry more than enough room to fill two more sets without having to resort to other evil things. It would really be terrible if SOI ended up being Innistrad in name only.

Sigma has a decent idea that they use the influence without having to print actual Eldrazi cards, which would be a cool way of doing it if they felt they had to. I guess something has to undo the completed story we've already seen on Innistrad.

 

[phazedplasma]

you guys think cavern of souls will see a reprint in SOI?

 

[WanderingWind]

you guys think cavern of souls will see a reprint in SOI?

It was a great card that sees eternal play. So, no.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ok Eldrazi weren't that amazing the first time and there were barely even 20, that's counting the drones.

The funny thing is none of these are red. They actually had to resort to werewolves and vampires bleeding into red. That's when you know red is fucked.

Red got devils though, and could have gotten kobolds and such, ghosts should be way more red than blue in addition. If a ghost is benevolent it's white if it's of sorrow it's black if it's one of vengeance and/or resentment it should be red. But blue geists? Just because they are spectral by nature?

 

[Firemind]

Werewolves. Ghosts. Vampires. Zombies.

The funny thing is none of these are red. They actually had to resort to werewolves and vampires bleeding into red. That's when you know red is fucked.

 

[pigeon]

So then MaRo might've been teasing a bigger double card focus when he was talking about printer logistics in that last article.

 

[SigmasonicX]

The funny thing is none of these are red. They actually had to resort to werewolves and vampires bleeding into red. That's when you know red is fucked.

They also had devils in red.

Anyway, I think I'll double down on my guess that Shadows Over Innistrad will involve the Eldrazi. It makes sense that after a block saying that at least one of the Eldrazi (Emrakul) is missing, we'd see what it was up to, and they have to do a "Eldrazi invade a plane we're already familiar with" story at some point. Innistrad is the perfect setting for a Lovecraftian story. charlequin also mentioned that it's odd that the seven year plan would end with a return to the first year, which was an experimental one that people were unsure of. It's possible that the seventh year was "Lovecraftian set" or "Eldrazi attack another world we know".

I expect that we won't see any actual Eldrazi creature cards, but we'll have a few devoid spells, which in this case act more like a flavor watermark than anything. These spells will depict people going mad either from seeing visions of Eldrazi or from realizing that other worlds exist and what that means for them. I can imagine the shadows described in the title as being literal shadows of Emrakul that people sometimes see off in the distance on a foggy night in a port town. Then, in the second set, we see some small Eldrazi coming out of the sea and some people start worshiping them.

 

[traveler]

What's not red about feral rage or bloodthirst?

 

[WanderingWind]

The funny thing is none of these are red. They actually had to resort to werewolves and vampires bleeding into red. That's when you know red is fucked.

I dunno. Werewolfs are pretty much unbridled fury. Seems red enough. And my favorite vampires are the BW type - aristocratic, but evil, but the ones is like 30 Days of Night seem redish. But yeah, none of them could really be strictly red in the sense you're talking about.

I think they did really well with the tribes.

RG - Werewolves (fury+nature)
UB - Zombies (regular and Frankensteiny types)
RB - Vampires (see above)
UW - Ghosts (this one seems the weakest. What is blue about a ghost? Flying, basically)
RW - Humans (White stereotype and red for being pissed off at being eaten)

I wonder if they're going to move into other colors with different monster tropes? And if so, how would they avoid the Ravnica guild feel?

UG -
UR -
BW -
WG -
etc cause I'm too lazy to think of all the ones I've missed

They also had devils in red.

Oh yeah. Huh.

 

[Firemind]

Yes, but devils weren't really a theme. They just added them because they had to have SOMETHING to fill up the set with red cards. I mean look at this:

It's a wolf which is classically green. They probably had a discussion like: "How can we make this red?" "Oh, I know, make it feral and give it trample (??) and firebreathing. Done. Now let's have a coffee break."

 

[kirblar]

I really hope they don't do the 10 dedicated color pair bullshit for Innistrad II. The first set didn't need it (at common.)

 

[WanderingWind]

Lol. Yeah, that one is pretty weaksauce. Tribal sets are the best sets. Not in the traditional sense, but any set that rewards you for picking a "side" really plays into the best Magic has to offer. Ravnica with its guilds. Khans with its clans. Innistrad with its actual tribes. This is probably why I'm so uninterested in standard at the moment. 4 color good stuff decks aren't exciting to me, personally. Why even bother with having different colors at that point?

I really hope they don't do the 10 dedicated color pair bullshit for Innistrad II. The first set didn't need it (at common.)

Oh, come on. How can even you hate on one of the strongest elements in one of the best sets Magic has to offer?

 

[Firemind]

What's not red about feral rage or bloodthirst?

Hm. Yeah. So bloodthirsty. Wait a second.... it's just a vampire doing vampire things. It's like black vampires can't be angry or something. When they get angry, oh boy, that's when they turn red!

(Yes, I know red vampires are good for gameplay reasons. Shut up.)

 

[kirblar]

Oh, come on. How can even you hate on one of the strongest elements in one of the best sets Magic has to offer?

But it's not in Innistrad (at common.) The cards are there, but they don't come together until you draft it.

BFZ sealed is one of the worst MTG formats ever because you don't get enough pieces to actually make a cohesive deck because there are 10 different niche decks in the format.

Innistrad, on the other hand, had 5 color pairs, each with a "fast" archetype and a "slow" version. It also has enemy-colored decks, but they're sewn into the set and aren't really revealed until you have the ability to go for the uncommon enablers. There are no enemy colored cards at common. There are plenty of cards that go in enemy color decks, but those cards also fit into other decks without an issue.

What I'm saying is that I don't want them to treat Innistrad like they did BFZ- aka turn it into a MM-style hyper-niche drafting format. Because BFZ already showed that sucks in Standard when people have to use it for sealed.

 

[Vangu Vegro]

Yay! Another one of my least favorite blocks ever gets a return block while all the good ones get cheated out of one because the Magic player base are tasteless fucking philistines! I'm so excited!

 

[WanderingWind]

What I'm saying is that I don't want them to treat Innistrad like they did BFZ- aka turn it into a MM-style hyper-niche drafting format. Because BFZ already showed that sucks in Standard when people have to use it for sealed.

Sure. I said as much already, but Innistrad as it existed was one of the best draft formats ever made. How they used the color pairs at all rarities fed into that. I recognize how they broke it apart, but I view that as a great asset and not a detriment.

But yeah, BFZ is the modern gold standard for how not to do, well, everything. BFZ isn't as bad as the worst sets in Magic, but it absolutely the worst set in the 'modern' world of Magic.

 

[Hero]

Yay! Another one of my least favorite blocks ever gets a return block while all the good ones get cheated out of one because the Magic player base are tasteless fucking philistines! I'm so excited!

How the hell do you hate Innistrad? Have you only played like, two blocks or something?

 

[pelicansurf]

How the hell do you hate Innistrad? Have you only played like, two blocks or something?

Return to Khans, amirite