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[Angry Grimace]

Because they got brought out into the open in Rav1. It's fine for Dimir to have a massive underground part. Just give them something public facing at this point.

Large/Large for sure.

The guilds also got dissolved in Rav1 and they just retconned it. They also held a creative panel at PAX this year where they explained that basically "yes we retcon shit whenever it suits us."

Which kind of makes the creative panels wack as fuck since they can just make up or say anything to explain basically any creative thing they do.

A strictly better clone!

Copying Mirran Crusader sounds fun.

 

[SigmasonicX]

A strictly better clone!

Pretty interesting. I like that it sets base power and toughness, so it actually take a fair chunk of mana to actually pump it a lot of the time, and it makes it worthwhile to clone smaller creatures sometimes.

 

[Firemind]

Because they got brought out into the open in Rav1. It's fine for Dimir to have a massive underground part. Just give them something public facing at this point.

I thought they sent a maze runner in DGM?

It's not that implausible that normal citizens don't know about Dimir's existence, considering the Azorious Senate likely wants to keep it under wraps. If someone gets killed in public, it could have easily been a member of Orzhov or Rakdos. I mean, the mafia don't have any public faces because they're mafia. Same deal.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The average citizen either isn't in a guild or is basically grunt level so its not terribly surprising that they don't know about Dimir. I think we can safely assume that Boros Grunt A probably isn't aware of the fact that he costs red and white mana to cast to begin with, so he's probably not suspicious at the lack of a blue/black guild lol

 

[SigmasonicX]

As shown by this card, Dimir does have a public face.

I believe the Planeswalker's Guide stated that they do detective work and information gathering.

 

[OnPoint]

Except that isn't what I said at all. I'm talking about the person who is on all the packaging as the key focus of the plot, the way Gideon is on Zendikar, Sarkhan was on Tarkir and Elspeth was on Theros.

How do you figure she is basically confirmed by Wizards as the face planeswalker of SOI? Because if we're just worried about who's gonna show up, its almost certain Liliana is going to be there.

If we're talking about "all the packaging" for SOI as this one image of Jace? Then sure. So far Jace is the face.

If you want I can go back and search for examples of the Liliana being key in the post-BFZ block thing, but I'm not the only person on this page who remembered it.

I didn't care for Ugin, the Dragonlords or Sarkhan when he became Jesus reincarnated. The only character I had any sympathy for was Zurgo. The dragons were such a disappointment.

I'm sorry you didn't care for the story, but this doesn't mean story shouldn't exist. The Sarkhan stuff gave people like me, who want something more beyond world building, to grasp on to and care about.

I ... don't care a lot about the fiction. To clarify - to me, the setting (the world, the creatures, the characters) are important; the plot isn't. The cards can tell a million possible stories; an official plot is unnecessary.

(Disclaimer: I did kind of like the Theros block story).

You not caring about story doesn't mean they shouldn't have it. The cards do not tell a million possible stories and have not for decades. In fact, they haven't been that way except for the first couple sets. The plot has been a central part of Magic for a long time, I would say starting with Legends vaguely and its only escalated from there. Now, they're making it even more important and central.

To clarify - you can still continue to not care about the plot. Ignore it at your convenience and preference. But it will be there, and having bad plot (i.e. Ravnica and Return to Ravnica blocks, to me, are bad plot, world building aside) hurt the game for people who do care.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

anti gravepact

 

[Ashodin]

Calling it. Liliana corrupts Avacyn with the Chain Veil. She fucking hates angels.

Also, demons on the plane cannot be killed. I read some of the lore and they had to chain them up with Avacyn's collar to keep them in line. So that has something to do with it, considering the set logo.

Karmic Justice is from Odyssey! AW YISS

 

[JulianImp]

anti gravepact

Huh? That doesn't stop Grave Pact, since it forces you to sacrifice your creatures and this card only cares about stuff that outright destroys your non-creatures, right? It does hose Armageddon and other global non-creature sweepers quite handily, though.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

anti gravepact

Nice. I like this style of pillowfort cards. Doesn't stop the play, just strongly encourages someone from targeting you with something.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Huh? That doesn't stop Grave Pact, since it forces you to sacrifice your creatures and this card only cares about stuff that outright destroys your non-creatures, right? It does hose Armageddon and other global non-creature sweepers quite handily, though.

reverse/nega gravepact then, in the sense it affects everything Gravepact doesn't affect.

 

[charlequin]

Last I recall it was sort of a retcon of the plot of Ravnica: City of Guilds block though, because I think the guilds were dissolved in Dissension, right?

Yeah they didn't start planning their stories for the possibility of returns until Zendikar so all the older blocks have weird endings that aren't included at all in the cards themselves but screw up the premise of the block. I think they just agreed they'd categorically retcon all of those because they're a huge mess for the card sets and very few people are aware of them.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

This one is really cool:

 

[Angry Grimace]

297 cards in SOI is pretty much DFC confirmed right

 

[SigmasonicX]

This one is really cool:

I feel like this is more in green's territory, but it's still interesting.

297 cards in SOI is pretty much DFC confirmed right

Unless they're doing something really wacky, yes.

 

[Ashodin]

This one is really cool:

deal all the damage!

 

[aidan]

anti gravepact

When's the last time we've seen this style of art on a Magic card? I like it in the same way I like some of the old, esoteric art from ABUR,

 

[Maledict]

Did anyone ever think even for a second that a return to Innistrad wouldn't have DFC, and a werewolf legend to boot?

They were the sets defining feature, insanely loved by fans, and I think Rosewater mentions their mistake with werewolves at least once a month. Curious to see how the retcon explains everything going back to exactly how it was when we first went to Innistrad (but only out of idle curiosity, I know it's coming).,

 

[OnPoint]

Calling it. Liliana corrupts Avacyn with the Chain Veil. She fucking hates angels.

Also, demons on the plane cannot be killed. I read some of the lore and they had to chain them up with Avacyn's collar to keep them in line. So that has something to do with it, considering the set logo.

Karmic Justice is from Odyssey! AW YISS

Liliana kills Griselbrand in Avacyn Restored. Did this not happen on Innistrad?

 

[charlequin]

When's the last time we've seen this style of art on a Magic card? I like it in the same way I like some of the old, esoteric art from ABUR,

Karmic Justice is an original-art reprint from Odyssey, that's why.

This one is really cool:

That's an awesome design. Already imagining some of the blowouts this thing is gonna produce.

297 cards in SOI is pretty much DFC confirmed right

Yes.

 

[aidan]

Karmic Justice is an original-art reprint from Odyssey, that's why.

Hah! That would explain it. I'm a little hazy on a lot of the cards from that period, since I wasn't playing at the time.

 

[OnPoint]

That's an awesome design. Already imagining some of the blowouts this thing is gonna produce.

"Blasphemous Act for one mana"

"I have a response"

DUDE. YES.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Calling it. Liliana corrupts Avacyn with the Chain Veil. She fucking hates angels.

Also, demons on the plane cannot be killed. I read some of the lore and they had to chain them up with Avacyn's collar to keep them in line. So that has something to do with it, considering the set logo.

Karmic Justice is from Odyssey! AW YISS

You're thinking of World of Warcraft.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Karmic Justice would be so great for Lantern Control if it were modern legal

 

[charlequin]

Did anyone ever think even for a second that a return to Innistrad wouldn't have DFC, and a werewolf legend to boot?

Yeah even more so than Landfall in Zendikar, DFCs are so defining of Innistrad that it'd be disastrous to return without them. At this point it's pretty clear that return blocks are being set up to use the single most prominent mechanic from their predecessors (even Mirrodin would've used Affinity if development didn't kill it.)

On the one hand I find this trend a little frustrating since it directly cuts against the diversity of how each thing is executed. We waited for BFZ to get full-art lands again and so now we have yet more full-art lands that once again depict the plane of Zendikar only. On the other hand they've already brought DFCs back once outside of Innistrad so maybe I'm worrying for nothing?

I'm pretty much on Rosewater's team with DFCs, btw, I'd be happy if they just used them all the time.

Curious to see how the retcon explains everything going back to exactly how it was when we first went to Innistrad (but only out of idle curiosity, I know it's coming).,

Innistrad is way easier to fix than Mirrodin (all life beamed off the plane) or Ravnica (all guilds dissolved) were. The plane being nice and friendly is dependent on Avacyn being alive and chill, so if you kill her or corrupt her it'll all go back to being dark and nasty. I'm guessing that's the actual plot hook of the set, rather than a before-the-fact retcon like SOM/RTR.

 

[The Technomancer]

Innistrad is way easier to fix than Mirrodin (all life beamed off the plane) or Ravnica (all guilds dissolved) were. The plane being nice and friendly is dependent on Avacyn being alive and chill, so if you kill her or corrupt her it'll all go back to being dark and nasty. I'm guessing that's the actual plot hook of the set, rather than a before-the-fact retcon like SOM/RTR.

Set structure gets weird here. Like, SoI is the big set, is the big set going to be lite on the horror stuff that's the reason everyone loves the plane with the "monsters returning" for the small set?

 

[The Technomancer]

Friend of mine:

Equip that sword to Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

Seriously though, I love this sword. While its obviously not exactly the same as Nacatl War Pride it plays around in a similar space and I've always loved the shit out of Nacatl War Pride

 

[Angry Grimace]

I rather wonder about Landfall in Zendikar. We assumed it would be there, but I think there were some questions about whether all the callbacks were going to be OG Zendikar or ROE (in which case the big call back is huge Eldrazi dudes).

But yeah, if I were wild mass guessing, the "Nahiri is Avacyn" thing will pay off and removing her as Avacyn would pretty much restore the evil beasties ruining the plane again.

Set structure gets weird here. Like, SoI is the big set, is the big set going to be lite on the horror stuff that's the reason everyone loves the plane with the "monsters returning" for the small set?

They can just set up the conflict in Uncharted Realms crap ahead of time. Although the plot being "Avacyn went missing again lol" would be pretty funny.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVV

It's also gross with Kokusho.

The tokens don't die.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Friend of mine:

It's also gross with Kokusho.

 

[OnPoint]

Innistrad is way easier to fix than Mirrodin (all life beamed off the plane) or Ravnica (all guilds dissolved) were. The plane being nice and friendly is dependent on Avacyn being alive and chill, so if you kill her or corrupt her it'll all go back to being dark and nasty. I'm guessing that's the actual plot hook of the set, rather than a before-the-fact retcon like SOM/RTR.

Let's walk through one potential scenario.

• Sorin arrives and approaches Avacyn
• He drops her origin on her (being Nahiri) and explains why she's needed elsewhere
• She protests, but then they both agree that it's time for the people/beings of Innistrad to stand on their own
• Avacyn is reverted to Nahiri, who has effectively jumped forward in time from being an old walker due to being in an "Avacyn shell"
• Now that Avacyn is "gone", her magic is effectively rendered powerless, or at the very least, less potent

Another small point for the theory: Nahiri's ability to Lithomance. Lending magic powers to physical objects that are or contain Avacyn symbols, metal and/or stone? Sounds like something Nahiri could do.

 

[charlequin]

Set structure gets weird here. Like, SoI is the big set, is the big set going to be lite on the horror stuff that's the reason everyone loves the plane with the "monsters returning" for the small set?

I think they just start up in media res. Switching to two-set blocks makes that easier to do anyway since the big set has to be Acts One and Two.

I rather wonder about Landfall in Zendikar. We assumed it would be there, but I think there were some questions about whether all the callbacks were going to be OG Zendikar or ROE (in which case the big call back is huge Eldrazi dudes).

Yeah it definitely wasn't certain upfront, but as a historical point of evidence it pushes pretty strongly towards this as being a general principle for return sets now.

But yeah, if I were wild mass guessing, the "Nahiri is Avacyn" thing will pay off

i swear to god

 

[Angry Grimace]

Let's walk through one potential scenario.

• Sorin arrives and approaches Avacyn
• He drops her origin on her (being Nahiri) and explains why she's needed elsewhere
• She protests, but then they both agree that it's time for the people/beings of Innistrad to stand on their own
• Avacyn is reverted to Nahiri, who has effectively jumped forward in time from being an old walker due to being in an "Avacyn shell"
• Now that Avacyn is "gone", her magic is effectively rendered powerless, or at the very least, less potent

Another small point for the theory: Nahiri's ability to Lithomance. Lending magic powers to physical objects that are or contain Avacyn symbols, metal and/or stone? Sounds like something Nahiri could do.

The Helvault is a hedron!

 

[OnPoint]

The Helvault is a hedron!

I mean, it kind of is though. I can't remember which side of the theory you're on, so I can't tell if you're being sarcastic haha

 

[Ashodin]

You're thinking of World of Warcraft.

They reform again, look it up.

Liliana kills Griselbrand in Avacyn Restored. Did this not happen on Innistrad?

Maybe the Chain Veil gets around the fact they can't die? I dunno? Seems to be the case.

The tokens don't die.

Legend rule.

 

[bigkrev]

Wouldn't be surprised if there are no werewolf DFCs in this new set. Blue seems to have a ton of design space with Delver/Civilized Scholor/Test Subject that could be moved to other colors, Loyal Cathar could be the basis of a lot of cards (This card dies, it comes back as something different), ect.

If they do werewolves again, I hope there is some big twist. Like maybe the side you cast is the monstrous side, and the side you flip to is their restored, smaller human side that has a powerful ability or something.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, it kind of is though. I can't remember which side of the theory you're on, so I can't tell if you're being sarcastic haha

MTG lore isn't exactly nuanced and complex so I would be not surprised at all if this theory turned out to be true.

 

[charlequin]

Wouldn't be surprised if there are no werewolf DFCs in this new set.

If the set has DFCs (which it very likely does) there's close to zero chance they don't do werewolves.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I never understood with Werewolves why they'd be wolves on the front but not humans on the backside.

It's literally in the name "Were"

 

[OnPoint]

Maybe the Chain Veil gets around the fact they can't die? I dunno? Seems to be the case.

Maybe. I don't know. I kind of hope he's not dead haha I like him

Maybe the Chain Veil gets around the fact they can't die? I dunno? Seems to be the case.

Maybe. I don't know. I kind of hope he's not dead haha I like him

Wouldn't be surprised if there are no werewolf DFCs in this new set. Blue seems to have a ton of design space with Delver/Civilized Scholor/Test Subject that could be moved to other colors, Loyal Cathar could be the basis of a lot of cards (This card dies, it comes back as something different), ect.

If they do werewolves again, I hope there is some big twist. Like maybe the side you cast is the monstrous side, and the side you flip to is their restored, smaller human side that has a powerful ability or something.

Rosewater has said that one of the biggest mistakes they made was not doing a DFC werewolf legend and/or planeswalker. I would expect both in this block.

IIRC, Avacyn's magic turned the werewolves into the Wolfir. Her being gone/dead/transformed and her magic lessening or disappearing could revert them. Might even make them more feral.

 

[kirblar]

I never understood with Werewolves why they'd be wolves on the front but not humans on the backside.

It's literally in the name "Were"

Human tribal.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hopefully if Lili is back we can get another evil Garruk card. That doesn't cost 7 mana.

 

[ultron87]

I wonder if it'll still be 1 DFC per pack or if the printing improvements they made that let them do the Origins Walkers will let them be in the normal card slots.

 

[The Technomancer]

The tokens don't die.

Legend rule, my friends and I were just discussing this since one of them is going to stick it in his dumbass Child of Alara deck

 

[Angry Grimace]

Legend rule, my friends and I were just discussing this since one of them is going to stick it in his dumbass Child of Alara deck

For some reason I thought Myriad exiled the tokens if they died also.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Human tribal.

balancing or flavorwise?

Hopefully if Lili is back we can get another evil Garruk card. That doesn't cost 7 mana.

Why not an 8CMC Ugin, Bolas power lvl walker

 

[OnPoint]

Hopefully if Lili is back we can get another evil Garruk card. That doesn't cost 7 mana.

It almost feels like they're setting him up to be a big bad, on par with Bolas eventually. I would love another playable Garruk though, and wish they'd fix him somehow. I don't want him to disappear forever after they kill him.

 

[Firemind]

Hopefully if Lili is back we can get another evil Garruk card. That doesn't cost 7 mana.

grimace pls

just kill off garruk

or have him kill someone important

this prancing around killing nobodies is doing no one any favours

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly my only real problem with the Avacyn is Nahiri thing is that it makes Sorin look weak even as an old planeswalker, making artificial life like angels is supposed to be something they could just do. Otherwise I quite appreciate the little connections that they planted

 

[Angry Grimace]

It almost feels like they're setting him up to be a big bad, on par with Bolas eventually. I would love another playable Garruk though, and wish they'd fix him somehow. I don't want him to disappear forever after they kill him.

I don't see him ever going back to Mono-Green since they basically replaced him with the greenest-green elf girl they could possibly retcon into the lore. It seems like they like having existing walkers of every color combo, and nobody likes Vraska haha. I remember Maro at some point saying they wanted to use Narset as the U/W replacement for Venser (for obvious reasons =( )

 

[OnPoint]

I don't see him ever going back to Mono-Green since they basically replaced him with the greenest-green elf girl they could possibly retcon into the lore. It seems like they like having existing walkers of every color combo, and nobody likes Vraska haha.

You could be right (and are about Vraska lol). But they could still 'heal' him and keep him black-green. 'The corruption is too deep, but the curse is removed, can't undo the damage but it won't get worse, yadda yadda yadda'.