Support NeoGAF

[ultron87]

Snake dude is probably pretty good in Tiny Leaders.

Huehuehue.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Siege Rhino.

There you go, a brief summation of Standard talk for the last year.

This is a pretty horrible standard. Worse than KTK Siege Rhino standard; I've pretty much checked out on the format already.

Dual-typed lands in standard with fetches was a fucking horrible idea from both a gameplay and financial standpoint. It's a huge convergence of horrible nonsense, from playing all the good cards in one deck, to shuffling fucking constantly, to the cheapest competitive deck being $300 and the best one costing more than Caw-Blade.

 

[Toxi]

Snake dude is probably pretty good in Tiny Leaders.

Huehuehue.

If you say Tiny Leaders in the mirror three times, your wallet and dignity disappear.

 

[Socat]

This is a pretty horrible standard. Worse than KTK Siege Rhino standard; I've pretty much checked out on the format already.

Dual-typed lands in standard with fetches was a fucking horrible idea from both a gameplay and financial standpoint. It's a huge convergence of horrible nonsense, from playing all the good cards, to shuffling fucking constantly, to the cheapest competitive deck being $300 and the best one costing more than Caw-Blade.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-most-expensive-standard-since-caw-blade

You aren't wrong

 

[Angry Grimace]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-most-expensive-standard-since-caw-blade

You aren't wrong

I will freely admit to being actual cranky about this Standard season. Enough that I've been playing Draw-Go decks when I actually go to FNM.

I *have* Jeskai Black, I just don't find it interesting at all because the nature of the deck is such that the most consequential and interesting decision you have to make is sequencing lands.

(And, no, I don't really hate EDH, I'm just joking)

 

[Joe Molotov]

If you say Tiny Leaders in the mirror three times, your wallet and dignity disappear.

What if you don't have either one?

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah I think I'm gonna play modern until fetches rotate out. Too rich for my blood.

Otoh, commander is increasingly my favorite format! Loving these new cards.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah I think I'm gonna play modern until fetches rotate out. Too rich for my blood.

Otoh, commander is increasingly my favorite format! Loving these new cards.

In fairness, Modern costs a shitload too, and the vast majority of the expensive Standard cards are also cards that see play in Modern.

 

[ultron87]

If you say Tiny Leaders in the mirror three times, your wallet and dignity disappear.

Our little playgroup tried it recently and it was a perfectly fun format. But so is any format you play with your friends. The fact that I happened to have all the cards I needed and bought nothing certainly helped.

 

[Ashodin]

In fairness, Modern costs a shitload too, and the vast majority of the expensive Standard cards are also cards that see play in Modern.

That ally deck I saw was relatively cheap.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Seems pretty good.

 

[kirblar]

This is a pretty horrible standard. Worse than KTK Siege Rhino standard; I've pretty much checked out on the format already.

Dual-typed lands in standard with fetches was a fucking horrible idea from both a gameplay and financial standpoint. It's a huge convergence of horrible nonsense, from playing all the good cards in one deck, to shuffling fucking constantly, to the cheapest competitive deck being $300 and the best one costing more than Caw-Blade.

The specific type of Dual Land is actually a huge issue here.

Fetch/Shock manabases would be better because they actively punish you for using them on later turns untapped. The checklands, by contrast, encourage you to flood your deck with fetches while the lands become painless.

Something like Fetchable Scars Duals would have been better imo.

 

[Firemind]

Well, you could always have just used Torpor Orb or Platinum Angel or Sundial of the Infinite...but yes, more redundancy is good.

I think the only legendary creature that was literally unplayable as a commander before this card was spoiled was Haakon.

him and norin the wary ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

 

[SigmasonicX]

The specific type of Dual Land is actually a huge issue here.

Fetch/Shock manabases would be better because they actively punish you for using them on later turns untapped. The checklands, by contrast, encourage you to flood your deck with fetches while the lands become painless.

Something like Fetchable Scars Duals would have been better imo.

Speaking of which, Wizards has talked about how they like to mix fast and slow dual lands, so I'm expecting for SOI to feature enemy color versions of the scarlands.

 

[Toxi]

Honestly, I think WotC has hit a home run with the new commanders. I don't think a single one so far has been disappointing. All of them encourage interesting deck-building and have something unique to provide.

I think my favorite so far is Kalemne; she encourages a very different direction from the current RW commanders thanks to her focus on playing with big creatures and she hits astonishingly hard for her cost.

Daxos is also awesome, and I'm glad they finally made a WB legendary creature not based around sacrificing or life gain.

Mazirek is disgustingly good and will see play both as a general and as one of the 99.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The specific type of Dual Land is actually a huge issue here.

Fetch/Shock manabases would be better because they actively punish you for using them on later turns untapped. The checklands, by contrast, encourage you to flood your deck with fetches while the lands become painless.

Something like Fetchable Scars Duals would have been better imo.

The entire issue is compounded by KTK block having a bunch of overpowered three-colored cards whose power is kept in check by three-color mana costs. But three color mana costs end up being easier to meet than dual colored costs because of the way the dual lands and fetches work.

Speaking of which, Wizards has talked about how they like to mix fast and slow dual lands, so I'm expecting for SOI to feature enemy color versions of the scarlands.

If I had to guess I imagine we're due for a new series of "ETBT + upside" duals.

I legit don't think I'd have a problem if they just said "shocklands are in every standard and we're not printing a million other duals." I just think shocklands are an elegant solution to the 'dual lands' problem. On their own they're great in 2 color decks, painful in 3 color decks that don't try to gain life, and practically unplayable in 4 color decks because you typically die.

 

[charlequin]

I wonder if people felt similarly about Magic during its early years, before expectations were set and you knew what you were getting into before you started.

I was there and yes they did. Reminds me of some old USENET rants, for sure.

That irrational guy that showed up in the thread when Day's Undoing was revealed would point to there being at least some small number of folks that fall in that demographic.

Sure, but I mean... let's put it this way. We've seen one guy show up doing that, but we see like twenty people every month show up on Blogatog asking for Kamigawa Two and WotC's decided that is an irrelevantly small demographic.

The Gisela reprint makes the new RW battle angel even more egregious. Aren't like 50% of RW Legends angels?

Yes, and yet somehow they still haven't printed a Feather card.

This is the worst time of year.

Because we have to talk about EDH.

 

[Toxi]

The Gisela reprint makes the new RW battle angel even more egregious. Aren't like 50% of RW Legends angels?

Angels are really popular. There's a reason Avacyn Restored sold so many packs.

The only part that bugs me is that we haven't gotten a freaking dragon in Boros. C'mon Wizards, it's the only Red color combination without a dragon.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Since this standard sucks, what's a good budget U/G fish build for Modern? Doesn't necessarily have to be Merfolk, I'm a Simic and Kiora sucker.

 

[kirblar]

Speaking of which, Wizards has talked about how they like to mix fast and slow dual lands, so I'm expecting for SOI to feature enemy color versions of the scarlands.

I think we're a block off from that, the painlands will still be in.

 

[OnPoint]

This is the worst time of year.

Because we have to talk about EDH.

People seem to be having a good time. Why can't that just be OK?

If you don't like this topic, start another conversation and see if anyone bites. It's not like we haven't had multiple threads within this thread in the past. We're all capable of multiple lines of thought.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I have like 8 toughness. Grimace has lots and lots of powers.

Maro:

When the first planeswalkers came out in Lorwyn, Jace handily did the best in market research even though he didn’t have the strongest planeswalker card.

I wasn't playing then, but is Jace Beleren on its face seems like it has a similar power level to Garruk Wildspeaker and is better than the other 3....

gatvin asked: Its important to remember that with BFZ being a VERY low power set AND expeditions+ full art lands being in the set, you'll need to factor sales generated by those out before using sales as a metric for how good your design was.

We look at many factors with sales being only one.


Also, power level is development, not design.

Maro selectively answers questions, so it really comes off like he's trying to shunt blame for BFZ being pretty bad.

People seem to be having a good time. Why can't that just be OK?

If you don't like this topic, start another conversation and see if anyone bites. It's not like we haven't had multiple threads within this thread in the past. We're all capable of multiple lines of thought.

Because its just a joke, and I even said "I'm just joking" on this page already. I bought all 5 of the Commander decks last year even.

 

[Toxi]

Jace being the most popular isn't surprising. He's the one who represents the majority of the Magic audience (White young male) and is the most popular color (Blue).

People seem to be having a good time. Why can't that just be OK?

If you don't like this topic, start another conversation and see if anyone bites. It's not like we haven't had multiple threads within this thread in the past. We're all capable of multiple lines of thought.

Let Angry Grimace be angry, it's his thing.

 

[Firemind]

Angels are really popular. There's a reason Avacyn Restored sold so many packs.

The only part that bugs me is that we haven't gotten a freaking dragon in Boros. C'mon Wizards, it's the only Red color combination without a dragon.

You will have your spunky, red-headed angels and you will like it!

 

[OnPoint]

Because its just a joke, and I even said "I'm just joking" on this page already. I bought all 5 of the Commander decks last year even.

Missed that before. It's hard to tell with you sometimes

I think these decks could be pretty fun... we'll see.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm liking a lot of the commanders but most of the other cards except the Red Confluence and Kalamene's Captain have been duds for me. Not seeing a lot of Cube standouts yet either

Seems pretty good.

Why is this restricted to basic lands? I'm paying six mana here :/

 

[Angry Grimace]

Missed that before. It's hard to tell with you sometimes

I think these decks could be pretty fun... we'll see.

I really liked the ones last year, but the whole "experience" counter thing seems kinda meh to me. But then again, if I make an EDH deck it's usually just goodstuff shit I own, I don't really care to play them as Spike decks.

 

[Firemind]

Why is this restricted to basic lands? I'm paying six mana here :/

Hahahaha

that's cute.

 

[OnPoint]

I really liked the ones last year, but the whole "experience" counter thing seems kinda meh to me. But then again, if I make an EDH deck it's usually just goodstuff shit I own, I don't really care to play them as Spike decks.

Last year's decks were so much fun. I really hope this experience counter thing comes off well.

I tend to not over-Spike on them. I make them strong, but I sandbag or choose to not make blowout plays in the name of fun sometimes. Nobody ever had fun playing against Spike EDH decks. Plus, it's fun watching my friends pilot them from across the table. They look at their hands and they're like "Woah... I can do something crazy here."

 

[Neoweee]

Maro selectively answers questions, so it really comes off like he's trying to shunt blame for BFZ being pretty bad.

Maro basically stops paying attention to sets by the end of Development, and feels almost completely divorced from discussions on power level except when he's talking about how the entire team almost got fired for Urza's Block.

With regards to that guy's question or comment that Maro was responding to, Wizards does do a bunch of surveys and market research. Their big problem, or at least my impression of it, is that they don't do a proper job of trying to correct for power level's entanglement with the other aspects they study, like art, flavor, settings, or mechanics. Kamigawa is like bottom of the barrel in everything including art/flavor/setting, which seems nuts to me. People like things that are powerful, and liking them for power level taints how much they like everything else about the card or mechanics.

 

[fifasnipe2224]

 

[Angry Grimace]

This feels like weird templating.

 

[Santiako]

Why couldn't it be a 2/3 instead to make her recurrable with Alesha. Still really cool.

 

[OnPoint]

"Commander creatures" is odd. Is it to cover if you steal control of someone else's commander?

 

[ultron87]

This feels like weird templating.

Let's you steal everyone else's and keep them forever!

 

[Angry Grimace]

"Commander creatures" is odd. Is it to cover if you steal control of someone else's commander?

That, or to avoid the horrible rules nightmare of your Teferi, Temporal Archmage getting +2/+2.

 

[ultron87]

Also "your Commander has indestructible" would suck when your Commander gets stolen.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think the issue is that the templating is written out in an identical way it would be if "Commander" was a creature or other card type as opposed to some other rarely-relevant characteristic. It just makes the card appear to be trying to do something different than what it actually does since Commander isn't an actual type, its just a designation that you make at the beginning of the game.

Its not super important, but EDH is a casual format, so I wouldn't be surprised in the least if someone plays Mirror Entity and expects to receive the bonus because of the way its worded.

"Creatures you control which are Commanders gain +2/+2" would probably work the exact same, right?

 

[Toxi]

Okay, that's really damn cool.

It's both boardwipe insurance and a way to abuse your own wrath effects.

 

[Ashodin]

Fuck yes Straight into opal eye.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Maro basically stops paying attention to sets by the end of Development, and feels almost completely divorced from discussions on power level except when he's talking about how the entire team almost got fired for Urza's Block.

With regards to that guy's question or comment that Maro was responding to, Wizards does do a bunch of surveys and market research. Their big problem, or at least my impression of it, is that they don't do a proper job of trying to correct for power level's entanglement with the other aspects they study, like art, flavor, settings, or mechanics. Kamigawa is like bottom of the barrel in everything including art/flavor/setting, which seems nuts to me. People like things that are powerful, and liking them for power level taints how much they like everything else about the card or mechanics.

Eh, Tibalt was popular despite having a bad card. Theros is generally considered a low-power set, but it's very popular.

Anyway, I will agree that the wording of Bastion Protector feels weird, but I don't think it's confusing.

 

[charlequin]

Honestly, I think WotC has hit a home run with the new commanders. I don't think a single one so far has been disappointing. All of them encourage interesting deck-building and have something unique to provide.

I don't really care for Mizzix but I will freely admit that it's because I'm sick of blue-red cast-stuff commanders. Both Simic generals are awesome, Daxos is awesome, Kalemne is at least decent, the insect guy is a fun combo of two GB themes and probably isn't as broken as generals like, say, Ghave.

I wasn't playing then, but is Jace Beleren on its face seems like it has a similar power level to Garruk Wildspeaker and is better than the other 3....

The perception at the time was that Jace was probably the middle of the pack out of the five in power level.

With regards to that guy's question or comment that Maro was responding to, Wizards does do a bunch of surveys and market research. Their big problem, or at least my impression of it, is that they don't do a proper job of trying to correct for power level's entanglement with the other aspects they study, like art, flavor, settings, or mechanics. Kamigawa is like bottom of the barrel in everything including art/flavor/setting, which seems nuts to me. People like things that are powerful, and liking them for power level taints how much they like everything else about the card or mechanics.

I don't think it's hard to explain people disliking the Kamigawa creative. It's in the middle of the guys-from-under-the-green-sun era of setting design, so all the mortal-side creatures are really similar humans or {insert one color-themed race here}, while the spirits are all weird and incomprehensible floaty stuff that's hard to make out at card size. Only one set had ninjas and most of the other anime craziness people were expecting never showed up.

This feels like weird templating.

They've gotta say "creatures" since the card that is your commander could theoretically be a variety of other permanent types, but yeah, I agree it's awkward. "Creatures that are a commander" would probably be better.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I don't think it's hard to explain people disliking the Kamigawa creative. It's in the middle of the guys-from-under-the-green-sun era of setting design, so all the mortal-side creatures are really similar humans or {insert one color-themed race here}, while the spirits are all weird and incomprehensible floaty stuff that's hard to make out at card size. Only one set had ninjas and most of the other anime craziness people were expecting never showed up.

I know that for Lava Spike, it took forever for me to realize that the attack was coming from the thing in the background, not the guy in front.

 

[Neoweee]

Eh, Tibalt was popular despite having a bad card. Theros is generally considered a low-power set, but it's very popular.

There's definitely exceptions, but as far as I know Theros is the least popular of like the last five or six years of settings, right? It's down there with Scars.

I don't think it's hard to explain people disliking the Kamigawa creative. It's in the middle of the guys-from-under-the-green-sun era of setting design, so all the mortal-side creatures are really similar humans or {insert one color-themed race here}, while the spirits are all weird and incomprehensible floaty stuff that's hard to make out at card size. Only one set had ninjas and most of the other anime craziness people were expecting never showed up.

Fair enough.

I recall MaRo discussing Tamiyo at some point with her character being unpopular, until people realized how powerful she was, which led rising like of her character.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The perception at the time was that Jace was probably the middle of the pack out of the five in power level.



They've gotta say "creatures" since the card that is your commander could theoretically be a variety of other permanent types, but yeah, I agree it's awkward. "Creatures that are a commander" would probably be better.

It's pretty obvious what it does, it just feels weird.

 

[OnPoint]

There's definitely exceptions, but as far as I know Theros is the least popular of like the last five or six years of settings, right? It's down there with Scars.

I actually loved Scars. But nobody has to worry about it anymore -- it's New Phyrexia now so they can kind of "recreate" it when they return.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There's definitely exceptions, but as far as I know Theros is the least popular of like the last five or six years of settings, right? It's down there with Scars.



Fair enough.

I recall MaRo discussing Tamiyo at some point with her character being unpopular, until people realized how powerful she was, which led rising like of her character.

Theros was super popular. The flavor and world was pretty cool, actually. The set was just not super powerful.

 

[Neoweee]

I actually loved Scars. But nobody has to worry about it anymore -- it's New Phyrexia now so they can kind of "recreate" it when they return.

Commander has given them a good opportunity to do that. A bunch of new Commanders and cards from both New Phyrexia and Kamigawa, which they've mostly stayed away from in the past.

Theros was super popular. The flavor and world was pretty cool, actually. The set was just not super powerful.

Wow. I did not know that. Thanks! I really liked the setting etc., but I was under the impression that the story landed with a thud. Lots of complaining that almost none of the story is told through the cards, etc. Most players have no idea that Elspeth is dead.

 

[Toxi]

I don't really care for Mizzix but I will freely admit that it's because I'm sick of blue-red cast-stuff commanders. Both Simic generals are awesome, Daxos is awesome, Kalemne is at least decent, the insect guy is a fun combo of two GB themes and probably isn't as broken as generals like, say, Ghave.

Speaking of Ghave, Ghave+Insect general+Ashnod's Altar is another infinite combo. Like Ghave didn't have enough already.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I will say that while I don't really have a problem with EDH, I've never been super high on "specifically for Commander" cards. I don't know, it feels like those cards kind of defeat the purpose of the format.