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Magic: the Gathering - Battle for Zendikar |OT| Lands matter (but nothing else does)
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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So? It's not like Pod where creatures were the problem and siege rhinos of the world set it over the edge. They barely even print equipment and it's unlikely we'll see much better than what's already available. Only risk is some ridiculous high cmc, low equip busted equipment being printed but that's assuming something like that is in the works. I think shaking up the format a little is worth limiting some hypothetical future busted-with-SFM equipment.
They're not always worried about what's current moving through design or development but with the possibility of limiting design space. If the format weren't in a good place I could understand the idea of certain unbannings, though the idea of unbanning something that would probably necessitate a banning on it's own, like SFM, is certainly less likely. As it stands the format is in a pretty diverse and healthy place so it doesn't need significant changes. Amulet Bloom can go but otherwise the format is in a pretty decent spot atm.
They're not always worried about what's current moving through design or development but with the possibility of limiting design space. If the format weren't in a good place I could understand the idea of certain unbannings, though the idea of unbanning something that would probably necessitate a banning on it's own, like SFM, is certainly less likely. As it stands the format is in a pretty diverse and healthy place so it doesn't need significant changes. Amulet Bloom can go but otherwise the format is in a pretty decent spot atm.
It barely limits design space. Again, this isn't anywhere close to the argument against pod. Every year has potentially hundreds of new creatures so every siege rhino or sin collector just adds a little too much utility to a card like birthing pod. Unless gatherer is lying there's only been 43 pieces of equipment printed since it was introduced. Making sure the few new ones released every year aren't broken with SFM isn't that big of a deal.
As someone who travels somewhat far to several large tournaments a year, I'll tell you right now I'd much rather lose to a SFM deck than someone nut drawing me with a deck like Goryo's Vengeance or even Infect. Cards like SFM and JTMS at least guarantee the game will last more than a few turns. The Bloom player I played against in my first round at GP Pittsburgh had the type of draws that were unbeatable for every relevant deck in the format. Getting to play 3 total turns of magic isn't fun.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Equipment is one of those areas where they still have a ton of design space. I'd like to see more usable equipments. I mean, honestly, nearly every card has some kind of sword or weapon on it (even Silumgar had legendary Tasigur bling!) and we've got like, 20 swords. Hell, the "powerful" swords we have available aren't even modern playable. They got so much room to work with. Probably the one area where they have the most natural design space available.
I'd rather see them just ban Batterskull before unbanning SFM if they are so worried about it.
There's so much good artifact hate running around out there. Also Lightning Bolt can handle a 2-toughness creature no problem, as it already is doing that in the format.
I feel like nothing much will change in terms of sideboard/deck construction if SFM+Batterskull is legal. It would add a deck or two, sure, but it wouldn't really shake things up too much. And more variety is nice.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
K-Com changed the game
Horatorobor
Member
Would From Beyond work on a Standard playable deck?
I'm thinking to make it work in some kind of UG Eldrazi once Oath comes releases.
I'm thinking to make it work in some kind of UG Eldrazi once Oath comes releases.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Holy shit one of Rosewater's original mechanic pitches for Time Spiral was a cycle of cards that let you include non-Standard legal cards in your set. Like, a wizard that if it was in your deck let you play any wizard you wanted from the game's history as well
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The fact that there's like one specific 3 mana answer to Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull together isn't nearly as meaningful as you guys think it is.
There's a big difference between "Flip Jace dies to Bolt" and "Stoneforge Mystic and the basically free Batterskull you get along with it dies to a three mana answer which can be played in decks that happen to be both red and black." The reason Kolaghan's Command is good to begin with is because it represents an inherent card advantage since you almost always take 2 cards for 1, except you aren't doing that vs. a Stoneforge Mystic because they got Batterskull for free. Is it a good answer against Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, but I don't think it follows to argue the viability of Kolaghan's Command as a response somehow bring Stoneforge Mystic back to earth.
There's a big difference between "Flip Jace dies to Bolt" and "Stoneforge Mystic and the basically free Batterskull you get along with it dies to a three mana answer which can be played in decks that happen to be both red and black." The reason Kolaghan's Command is good to begin with is because it represents an inherent card advantage since you almost always take 2 cards for 1, except you aren't doing that vs. a Stoneforge Mystic because they got Batterskull for free. Is it a good answer against Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, but I don't think it follows to argue the viability of Kolaghan's Command as a response somehow bring Stoneforge Mystic back to earth.
The fact that there's like one specific 3 mana answer to Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull together isn't nearly as meaningful as you guys think it is.
There's a big difference between "Flip Jace dies to Bolt" and "Stoneforge Mystic and the basically free Batterskull you get along with it dies to a three mana answer which can be played in decks that happen to be both red and black." The reason Kolaghan's Command is good to begin with is because it represents an inherent card advantage since you almost always take 2 cards for 1, except you aren't doing that vs. a Stoneforge Mystic because they got Batterskull for free. Is it a good answer against Stoneforge Mystic? Sure, but I don't think it follows to argue the viability of Kolaghan's Command as a response somehow bring Stoneforge Mystic back to earth.
I don't think Kolghan's Command alone is enough, but it helps. Bolt/Path is prevalent enough to handle the Squire side of things, and all the Affinity hate is probably enough to help deal with the Batterskull side of things.
I don't have a problem with the idea of this card becoming legal. I really don't.
SigmasonicX
Member
Holy shit one of Rosewater's original mechanic pitches for Time Spiral was a cycle of cards that let you include non-Standard legal cards in your set. Like, a wizard that if it was in your deck let you play any wizard you wanted from the game's history as well
Link to the new Topical Blend, mixing unreleased mechanics with urban legends.
Also of note is that New Phyrexia originally had, as a major mechanic, the BFM gimmick where you need two cards to cast a single creature. The difference is that you could use any "left side" and "right side" to mix and match creatures. However, Ken Nagle got pulled into a dark van and got that mechanic Surgical Extraction'd out of him by development (supposedly). In practice, it seems like this would have worked similarly to soulbond.
We also get a few more details about the forbidden mechanic.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I don't think Kolghan's Command alone is enough, but it helps. Bolt/Path is prevalent enough to handle the Squire side of things, and all the Affinity hate is probably enough to help deal with the Batterskull side of things.
I don't have a problem with the idea of this card becoming legal. I really don't.
The problem is that something like Twin gets cited as unfair all the time, but literally every viable Modern deck can interact with Twin and its combo. Kolaghan's Command is a decent answer, but its not as ideal as people say it is and the number of copies in the format in general isn't terribly encouraging as a reason to unban Stoneforge Mystic. It wouldn't be the end of my world if it was unbanned, I just don't think pretending its not an exceptionally good card is a good way to go about it. I would be very surprised if SFM being unbanned in Modern didn't lead to new archetypes being built around it. Unbanned SFM is clearly one of the best cards in Modern bar none.
It's way lower on my list of unbans than say, Bloodbraid Elf, Ancestral Visions or Jace the Mind Sculptor.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Only because of dismember and spellskite though and few decks have a surefire answer to twin + counter backup
that'd have been awful.
Link to the new Topical Blend, mixing unreleased mechanics with urban legends.
Also of note is that New Phyrexia originally had, as a major mechanic, the BFM gimmick where you need two cards to cast a single creature. The difference is that you could use any "left side" and "right side" to mix and match creatures. However, Ken Nagle got pulled into a dark van and got that mechanic Surgical Extraction'd out of him by development (supposedly). In practice, it seems like this would have worked similarly to soulbond.
We also get a few more details about the forbidden mechanic.
that'd have been awful.
Would From Beyond work on a Standard playable deck?
I'm thinking to make it work in some kind of UG Eldrazi once Oath comes releases.
Yeah its in my mono green Eldrazi deck as a one of. Let's you chump block or ramp a little, and it tutors for Ulamog mainly.
A variant on that is my GDS3 mechanic.Link to the new Topical Blend, mixing unreleased mechanics with urban legends.
Also of note is that New Phyrexia originally had, as a major mechanic, the BFM gimmick where you need two cards to cast a single creature. The difference is that you could use any "left side" and "right side" to mix and match creatures. However, Ken Nagle got pulled into a dark van and got that mechanic Surgical Extraction'd out of him by development (supposedly). In practice, it seems like this would have worked similarly to soulbond.
We also get a few more details about the forbidden mechanic.
Where did I say it's not a good card? I think it's a fantastic card. And I welcome new archetypes and also said it would create new decks.The problem is that something like Twin gets cited as unfair all the time, but literally every viable Modern deck can interact with Twin and its combo. Kolaghan's Command is a decent answer, but its not as ideal as people say it is and the number of copies in the format in general isn't terribly encouraging as a reason to unban Stoneforge Mystic. It wouldn't be the end of my world if it was unbanned, I just don't think pretending its not an exceptionally good card is a good way to go about it. I would be very surprised if SFM being unbanned in Modern didn't lead to new archetypes being built around it. Unbanned SFM is clearly one of the best cards in Modern bar none.
It's way lower on my list of unbans than say, Bloodbraid Elf, Ancestral Visions or Jace the Mind Sculptor.
What I am saying is that I think the hate for it is already out there and in many 75s, so unbanning it wouldn't change much current construction, and while it would add to the list of archetypes, I don't think it would upend the modern table.
In short, I think it's safe.
charlequin
Banned
Holy shit one of Rosewater's original mechanic pitches for Time Spiral was a cycle of cards that let you include non-Standard legal cards in your set. Like, a wizard that if it was in your deck let you play any wizard you wanted from the game's history as well
I was hoping when he announced the topic here that he'd fill us in on a couple stories he'd hinted at years ago so I was glad to see this one. He'd told us way back in the day that there were two different cycles that had been pulled from sets for being impossible to make work on Magic Online, and revealed a while ago that one was a black-border version of the Unglued "Double" spells that affect the next game in your match; I guess this was the other.
Also of note is that New Phyrexia originally had, as a major mechanic, the BFM gimmick where you need two cards to cast a single creature. The difference is that you could use any "left side" and "right side" to mix and match creatures.
This sounds so neat but I'm guessing it must have been miserable to actually get to work and play well.
charlequin
Banned
To do it you need to put the half-cards on the back so that they're playable before you morph them together.
That's what they get for trying to do it before DFCs then!
It's Skylanders Swap Force in card form.That's what they get for trying to do it before DFCs then!
I was thinking Mount + Rider, but am open to suggestion.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
It's Skylanders Swap Force in card form.
I was thinking Mount + Rider, but am open to suggestion.
Kind of like equipment, no? Artifact Creature - Equipment, has Defender or something. Would be open-ended, anyway. And weird, flavour-wise, since the equipment goes on the creature and not vice-versa.
Sort of. Both would flip over and combine into a single card.Kind of like equipment, no? Artifact Creature - Equipment, has Defender or something. Would be open-ended, anyway. And weird, flavour-wise, since the equipment goes on the creature and not vice-versa.
charlequin
Banned
I was thinking Mount + Rider, but am open to suggestion.
The trouble with this is that you need to orient the cards on top of each other and so all your layout options get wonky.
I think Phyrexia is actually a pretty inspired place to use a mechanic like this because of the whole merged-art aspect. You have to create pictures that fit together at the seams Exquisite-Corpse-style and while that's tough to do no matter what, it's a lot easier to make coherent when you're talking a race of creepy cyborg monsters.
EDIT: Oh, and for anyone collecting evidence that SOI is Emrakul-Does-Innistrad:
miztickow asked: I found this: "Last year we returned to Mirrodin. While we are willing to return to other previously visited planes, we didn't want to do it back to back." in one of your articles from 4 years ago (I know that's quite a long time) and was wondering why we're going back to Innistrad right after we went back to Zendikar. (though I'm guessing you can't tell us yet because we're not even at Oath of the Gatewatch)
We can talk after the block is out.
Giant Panda
Member
Rules question: I have an 4/4 Experiment One and a Wilt-leaf Liege. I then play a Fleecemane Lion. Does the Fleecemane lion trigger the evolve of Experiment One?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Both would be 5/5s so I'd say no, or is the experiment one a 3/3 by itself and a 4/4 with the liege, if so yes.
If the Experiment One is a 3/3 boosted to a 4/4 by the Wilt-Leaf Liege, yes. The Fleecemane Lion would be a 5/5 when it enters the battlefield. Both its power and toughness would be greater than the experiment's.Rules question: I have an 4/4 Experiment One and a Wilt-leaf Liege. I then play a Fleecemane Lion. Does the Fleecemane lion trigger the evolve of Experiment One?
If the Experiment One is a 4/4 boosted to a 5/5 by the Wilf-Leaf Liege, no. The Fleecemane Lion would not have greater power or toughness than the experiment.
The problem is that something like Twin gets cited as unfair all the time, but literally every viable Modern deck can interact with Twin and its combo. Kolaghan's Command is a decent answer, but its not as ideal as people say it is and the number of copies in the format in general isn't terribly encouraging as a reason to unban Stoneforge Mystic. It wouldn't be the end of my world if it was unbanned, I just don't think pretending its not an exceptionally good card is a good way to go about it. I would be very surprised if SFM being unbanned in Modern didn't lead to new archetypes being built around it. Unbanned SFM is clearly one of the best cards in Modern bar none.
It's way lower on my list of unbans than say, Bloodbraid Elf, Ancestral Visions or Jace the Mind Sculptor.
Ya, every deck can interact with twin which usually means holding up mana for fear of dying to their instant speed rishadan port combo which ends the game immediately. SFM lets people play magic. The problem with the format definitely is not the decks that grind out advantage in the long game. So much can go wrong to disrupt SFM or even just go over the top that it's not a dangerous card at all. Even moreso when people jam in that extra piece of anti-SFM hate after it gets unbanned.
That wording seems very deliberate.What decided which plaeswalkers got cards in BFZ? I know we haven't seen Oath yet (which might help answer this), but what can you say at this point?
I can say nothing but repeat the one public fact I made months ago: Oath of the Gatewatch has two Planeswalker cards.
Giant Panda
Member
Both would be 5/5s so I'd say no, or is the experiment one a 3/3 by itself and a 4/4 with the liege, if so yes.
If the Experiment One is a 3/3 boosted to a 4/4 by the Wilt-Leaf Liege, yes. The Fleecemane Lion would be a 5/5 when it enters the battlefield. Both its power and toughness would be greater than the experiment's.
If the Experiment One is a 4/4 boosted to a 5/5 by the Wilf-Leaf Liege, no. The Fleecemane Lion would not have greater power or toughness than the experiment.
Thanks for the response. The Experiment One was a 4/4 after the Liege bonus was applied. This is due to layer rules right? The lion becomes a 5/5 before the evolve checks if the creature that entered the battlefield had greater power or toughness?
That wording seems very deliberate.
Think we see Planeswalkers showing up as Legendary Creatures? Non-flip versions similar to what we saw in ORI?
Or just showing up a lot in the story/lore without accompanying Planeswalker cards?
keeblerdrow
Member
Thanks for the response. The Experiment One was a 4/4 after the Liege bonus was applied. This is due to layer rules right? The lion becomes a 5/5 before the evolve checks if the creature that entered the battlefield had greater power or toughness?
They're static effects. The Experiment One is a 4/4 as long as the Liege is in play. The Lion enters the battlefield as a 5/5 if the Liege is in play when the spell resolves. The EOne will only ever see the 5/5, even if the Liege is killed as the next resolved spell or ability in the game. I think you have the gist of it.
I think we have a Jace/Chandra combo card.Think we see Planeswalkers showing up as Legendary Creatures? Non-flip versions similar to what we saw in ORI?
Or just showing up a lot in the story/lore without accompanying Planeswalker cards?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's weird that even with a zendikari Walker and a walker that already had a Zendikar card before in BFZ there wasn't technically a new walker among them.
charlequin
Banned
It's weird that even with a zendikari Walker and a walker that already had a Zendikar card before in BFZ there wasn't technically a new walker among them.
They've been saying for a while that the pace of new PW characters was going to slow down since they've got a pretty good stable and most storylines will involve 5+ characters already. Now that we're returning to planes that had PWs the first time around I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see almost any new PWs in these returns.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They've been saying for a while that the pace of new PW characters was going to slow down since they've got a pretty good stable and most storylines will involve 5+ characters already. Now that we're returning to planes that had PWs the first time around I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see almost any new PWs in these returns.
There's an impasse when you don't like any of the characters WoTC has decided to make their mainstays.
They've been saying for a while that the pace of new PW characters was going to slow down since they've got a pretty good stable and most storylines will involve 5+ characters already. Now that we're returning to planes that had PWs the first time around I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see almost any new PWs in these returns.
I'm fine with this, honestly. I like new walkers if they fall into the story, re: Xenagos, Koth. I do not like them if they are just kinda chillin doing nothing interesting, re: Tamiyo, Domri Rade.
Going forward, I like that they're tying these types of cards to the characters in the stories they want to tell. That said, they've got to be careful not to overdo some characters. I get that Jace is popular, but I hope he takes a block or two off after SoI. I mean, you could probably say that about most of the Origins 5 right now, with Liliana being the exception (I still say she's gonna be the secret black ranger in OGW). Bring us back some cool dudes like Garruk, Tezzeret, Karn, and kinda mix it up every now and again,
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That wording seems very deliberate.
I don't know man, this pet theory that they have a secret Jace + Chandra married couple series is pretty dubious sounding, not to mention completely out of nowhere.
Maro saying there's only two cards isn't a clue, that's him explaining that Jace doesn't have a card even though he's in the story for the set. I'm not sure where you're getting this.
http://wpn.wizards.com/en/event/prerelease-oath-gatewatchI don't know man, this pet theory that they have a secret Jace + Chandra married couple series is pretty dubious sounding, not to mention completely out of nowhere.
Maro saying there's only two cards isn't a clue, that's him explaining that Jace doesn't have a card even though he's in the story for the set. I'm not sure where you're getting this.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I have no idea why you are linking this random page.
I mean, is there something I'm missing or is it just the two headed giant thing to this? Because thats still a huge stretch.
nah it's nissa + chandra breh
charlequin
Banned
I don't know man, this pet theory that they have a secret Jace + Chandra married couple series is pretty dubious sounding, not to mention completely out of nowhere.
Well, let me put it this way: a planeswalker card with two characters on it is pretty much 100% happening at some point, because it's planeswalker space and planeswalker space is too valuable not to use.
Given that... is there any particular reason it wouldn't be in this upcoming set? What would be sufficient evidence that it's going to happen?
Basically: this thing isn't guaranteed by any stretch, but the 2HG thing has got to be in reference to something in the set and I don't think it's just "Ulamog and Kozilek both show up!"
MaRo confirmed a Nissa card. He keeps saying the 2 PW cards are out of the pool of Nissa/Chandra/Jace, because he knows that's not the full story.nah it's nissa + chandra breh
Jace is in SoI, but you don't want to give him a card there, because Tamiyo needs one. But then the block doesn't have a red PW. Hence, both!
Played a couple matches with LSV's Modern Bring to Light Gifts deck, any deck that runs Glen Elendra Archmage, Unburial Rites, and Elesh Norn in the mainboard is alright with me. Now if only they'd reprint the rest of the fetches so I could throw it together without spending an arm and a leg.
I'm conflicted. On one hand Planeswalkers functioning as one entity is dumb. On the other hand it might be the only way to make Chandra interesting.
They just need to grow Chandra's character a little bit and move her away from being only RED MAGE ANGRY! RED MAGE BURN!
MaRo confirmed a Nissa card. He keeps saying the 2 PW cards are out of the pool of Nissa/Chandra/Jace, because he knows that's not the full story.
Jace is in SoI, but you don't want to give him a card there, because Tamiyo needs one. But then the block doesn't have a red PW. Hence, both!
Now we're leaping to conclusions.
1. Why would they need to give Tamiyo a PW card? She isn't a big part of the story. I guess she could be, but she could be used literally anywhere they want to use her. I know she had her debut on Innistrad, but I'm not sold on this idea. If they're going to be expanding the Liliana/Jace relationship (which is looking likely as per Uncharted Realms) in SoI, I'd expect Jace there, not here.
2. If we're not getting a dual-planeswalker card, I wouldn't be shocked to see a solo Chandra be the second PW card. She's making a late entrance to the party in OGW which highlights her a little bit, and there are currently no red Planeswalkers being played at all (sometimes Sarkhan, but not really). Plus she won't likely be back until post-SoI, which might be Kaladesh block. As one of the 5 mains, I'd be shocked if they went two years without giving her some kind of presence in the card pool.
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