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[OnPoint]

aww where's the fun in that.

Stoneforge Mystic is already causing waves of dissent and that's no where near the enabler that those are.

 

[Angry Grimace]

What do you consider inevitable PW design space? Triggered/static abilities, certainly; one with X loyalty based on X in the mana cost... the pickings get slim after that. This is a good one since it's something that feels like a new gimmick that they can get some decent mileage out of but is mostly leaning on the creative side. It's also actively beneficial for an issue creative has, which is that they have too many characters in their stories now -- this is a nice tool to deal with that.



Again my question would just be what you think the 2HG thing is about. Every prerelease has a gimmick that comes out of the set contents and storyline now, so presumably it's reflected in the set somehow. If there's a mini team-up theme, there'll be cards that reflect that.

Anyway, my point isn't that they're definitely doing this (it's one of those off-chance predictions that looks amazing when you're right, but usually you aren't) but "well it's a bad idea" isn't a good argument against it.

The point is that I don't actually think its a good idea. The design space you guys are talking about already exists. That's what Planeswalkers like Ral Zarek exist for - they can do blue stuff and red stuff at the same time. I simply don't see any benefit that inures to WOTC by doing it other than annoying everyone that they don't have individual cards, particularly when the only piece of key art we have from Shadows Over Innistrad has Jace on it.

 

[kirblar]

Ral Zarek, Chandra, and Jace all have specific mechanical space pencilled out for themselves. This is why Liliana of the Dark realms became an issue- she doesn't resemble any other Liliana card and should have been a new Walker who was basically the "KOTH" of Swamps. In her wake, they tightened up.

Ral Zarek and a Chandra/Jace card will not look similar for that reason. Mechanically they should be very distinct.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Even playing small events at local stores, I have an issue with the people. Some are cool, and some are really hard to be around. Either because they have no social grace, smell bad, are simply bad people, or all of the above. I find with other activities I do with other people -- martial arts, hockey, even the local game development scene -- there is a lot less of this. It makes me want to come around less.

There's a guy at my store who's mostly harmless, but he's a big grinder, by which I mean both tournaments and my gears. I was talking about Modern the other day and saying how I'm gonna take apart my tokens deck a bit and retool it into Faeries since its fun, and he's like "Faeries sucks don't play that." And then I'm like "well I have Twin, but I'm thinking of selling it to build Jund instead," and he's like "Jund sucks, Tarmogoyf is getting banned, and besides, Tarmogoyf isn't even good." And then I say, "dude you also hate Twin do you like anything?" and he's like "I don't hate Twin." Last time I played Modern he started bitching to the ENTIRE store when I played Twin.

Ral Zarek, Chandra, and Jace all have specific mechanical space pencilled out for themselves. This is why Liliana of the Dark realms became an issue- she doesn't resemble any other Liliana card and should have been a new Walker who was basically the "KOTH" of Swamps. In her wake, they tightened up.

Ral Zarek and a Chandra/Jace card will not look similar for that reason. Mechanically they should be very distinct.

Ral Zarek has one card, and there's nothing that's particularly distinct about any of the abilities he has. This is really selective evidence.

 

[The Technomancer]

The team up planeswalker thing would have excited me more before they changed the Legendary/Planeswalker rule. The possibility of dropping Jace&Chandra and taking out two opposing walkers at once, no matter how unlikely to actually occur in real life, would be amazing

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Ral Zarek, Chandra, and Jace all have specific mechanical space pencilled out for themselves. This is why Liliana of the Dark realms became an issue- she doesn't resemble any other Liliana card and should have been a new Walker who was basically the "KOTH" of Swamps. In her wake, they tightened up.

Ral Zarek and a Chandra/Jace card will not look similar for that reason. Mechanically they should be very distinct.

Exactly. If you make a Chandra/Jace card, you don't have to mechanically figure out a way to make a Blue/Red walker and find things in the blue/red overlap space. The flavor becomes really easy to do; you can literally put "Shock" and "Draw a card" onto the same planeswalker without it feeling like as much of a copout.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Exactly. If you make a Chandra/Jace card, you don't have to mechanically figure out a way to make a Blue/Red walker and find things in the blue/red overlap space. The flavor becomes really easy to do; you can literally put "Shock" and "Draw a card" onto the same planeswalker without it feeling like as much of a copout.

Except nobody would bat an eye if Ral Zarek had draw/damage/ult because he only has one card.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Exactly. If you make a Chandra/Jace card, you don't have to mechanically figure out a way to make a Blue/Red walker and find things in the blue/red overlap space. The flavor becomes really easy to do; you can literally put "Shock" and "Draw a card" onto the same planeswalker without it feeling like as much of a copout.

and that'd be a boring ass walker

 

[kirblar]

Ral Zarek has one card, and there's nothing that's particularly distinct about any of the abilities he has. This is really selective evidence.

Look at Ral Zarek, then look at Dack Fayden. The flavor is completely different.

Except nobody would bat an eye if Ral Zarek had draw/damage/ult because he only has one card.

Ral has a burn spell. He has Lightning Bolt. Which fits with his energy-based flavor.

 

[Angry Grimace]

and that'd be a boring ass walker

If you were actually going to create these cards it would be a huge waste of design space to just make it into the Mantis Rider of Planeswalkers.

Look at Ral Zarek, then look at Dack Fayden. The flavor is completely different.

Ral has a burn spell. He has Lightning Bolt. Which fits with his energy-based flavor.

....so? I don't understand how this is supposed to be argument in favor of anything. Dack Fayden's abilities exist because he's a Thiefwalker - he loots and steals. If you made a new Ral and replaced his plus with "draw a card and discard a card" nobody would bat an eye (except for people who wanted to argue in favor of Married Couple Jace/Chandra, I guess?)

Even by your own example, Liliana Vess, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Liliana of the Veil and Liliana, Defiant Necromancer all have different abilities with the only real coherent theme being discard. The limitation on individual character's design space that you're referring to either doesn't actually exist or is far less restrictive than you're implying, especially on characters that don't even have an established theme to begin with.

 

[The Technomancer]

Oh yeah, I could never get into competitive Magic because I just didn't really have any desire to hang out with the people playing in competitive events. Magic, for me, exists as a fantastic game to play as a reason for hanging out with good friends anyway. I hung out with the same group of people for just about six years playing regularly every Friday and I did that because I liked being around those people. Its why I really haven't been playing much since I moved, even though there are still a few game stores in town.

 

[charlequin]

Ral Zarek has one card, and there's nothing that's particularly distinct about any of the abilities he has. This is really selective evidence.

The one time they put out a PW card that didn't cover the mechanical area that was lined up for that character, the reaction was so negative they created a new team inside R&D to make sure it never happened again. They feel pretty strongly about this consistency even after one card -- just look how closely Kiora's two cards line up in terms of mechanical themes.

Like, it's true that they could probably put some kind of draw on Ral Zarek, because drawing cards is pretty in-theme for Izzet, but his theme is supposed to be fiddly, dangerous, semi-random experimentation. They're not going to print a card that's mind-magic-and-burn for him, so whether they technically could sneak it by isn't really relevant.

Again, I still think this is an outside bet but it's a lot more likely than R&D throwing out their policy about planeswalker distinctness because it's inconvenient.

If they do tag team PWs the way they've done walkers so far it'll be barely any different to having a 2 coloured walker.

The simplest obvious thing to do is to do them as a 4-ability card. If they really wanted to blow people's minds they'd print one that can use two loyalty abilities per turn.

Even by your own example, Liliana Vess, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Liliana of the Veil and Liliana, Defiant Necromancer all have different abilities with the only real coherent theme being discard.

Liliana of the Dark Realms is thrown out because it explicitly doesn't meet the standard. The three you have left all have discard abilities and then stuff that Liliana does as a necromancer: kill things and then reanimate them. All of her cards (except, again, the one that is specifically bad) have at least two of their abilities directly taken from the suite of on-theme-for-Liliana abilities.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The one time they put out a PW card that didn't cover the mechanical area that was lined up for that character, the reaction was so negative they created a new team inside R&D to make sure it never happened again. They feel pretty strongly about this consistency even after one card -- just look how closely Kiora's two cards line up in terms of mechanical themes.

Like, it's true that they could probably put some kind of draw on Ral Zarek, because drawing cards is pretty in-theme for Izzet, but his theme is supposed to be fiddly, dangerous, semi-random experimentation. They're not going to print a card that's mind-magic-and-burn for him, so whether they technically could sneak it by isn't really relevant.

Again, I still think this is an outside bet but it's a lot more likely than R&D throwing out their policy about planeswalker distinctness because it's inconvenient.

The simplest obvious thing to do is to do them as a 4-ability card. If they really wanted to blow people's minds they'd print one that can use two loyalty abilities per turn.

Liliana of the Dark Realms is thrown out because it explicitly doesn't meet the standard. The three you have left all have discard abilities and then stuff that Liliana does as a necromancer: kill things and then reanimate them. All of her cards (except, again, the one that is specifically bad) have at least two of their abilities directly taken from the suite of on-theme-for-Liliana abilities.

[/QUOTE]Yeah, but again, it's a non existent problem that a mind-magic-and-burn card doesn't exist (whatever it is that mind-magic mechanically entails). I'm simply not convinced you actually need to blow both a Chandra and a Jace card (2 very popular characters) on creating Prophetic Bolt: the Planeswalker when its not actually problematic if Ral Zarek was Prophetic Bolt: the Planeswalker.

I'm not seeing a coherent theme beyond discard. I don't really buy that Liliana's theme is really "reanimation walker" when only one of them has a real reanimation ability. Her minus on the three non-Dark Realms cards are Vampiric Tutor, Diabolic Edict and Reanimate. There's clearly quite a bit of space to put whatever in-color abilities they want.

 

[OnPoint]

RE --the Planeswalker flavor debate: Sometimes I think Grimace does this just to play devil's advocate and keep discussions going.

As per a double walker, maybe it will be how the new Cryptic Command is templated. Let's make a stupid example.

Jace/Chandra 3UR

Planeswalker - Jace/Chandra

+2: Choose two

- Draw a card, then discard a card
- Scry 2
- Deal two damage to target creature
- Deal two damage to target player​

-10: Some sort of red/blue ultimate
{5}​

Not that hard to conceive really

 

[Angry Grimace]

RE --the Planeswalker flavor debate: Sometimes I think Grimace does this just to play devil's advocate and keep discussions going.

As per a double walker, maybe it will be how the new Cryptic Command is templated. Let's make a stupid example.

Jace/Chandra 3UR

Planeswalker - Jace/Chandra

+2: Choose two

- Draw a card, then discard a card
- Scry 2
- Deal two damage to target creature
- Deal two damage to target player​

-10: Some sort of red/blue ultimate
{5}​

Not that hard to conceive really

Getting real tired of "Grimace is an asshole for having opinion I don't agree with." I don't know why I'm posting here if actually thought and words into a debate about something is enough to make people whine.

 

[OnPoint]

I'll just stop posting in the thread. Getting real tired of "Grimace is an asshole for having opinion I don't agree with."

Nah man, I'm not saying do that. I like that you're here, even when we disagree. It just seems like you're being obtuse to be obtuse sometimes, despite being super knowledgable and obviously smart (and more than likely a better player than I'll probably ever be haha).

You really can't see how Ral Zarek and Dack Fayden are two very different blue/red cards? Neither of them is Prophetic Bolt, the Planeswalker. They're being super careful to avoid that, it seems.

As per your Liliana concerns, her abilities include discard, tutoring, and reanimation, all three of which are black. Ob Nixilis, on the other hand, has pay life to draw, creature kill and 'my power = your demise'. Neither of them mechanically or flavorfully care about swamps. Which is why Lili of the Dark Realms is so odd. It just doesn't fit what they want from her.

 

[Firemind]

Prophetic Bolt on a PW would be super sweet actually.

Hell, just reprint Prophetic Bolt in Standard. I'll play it.

 

[OnPoint]

And also, Grimace, I never said you were an asshole

Prophetic Bolt on a PW would be super sweet actually.

Hell, just reprint Prophetic Bolt in Standard. I'll play it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Nah man, I'm not saying do that. I like that you're here, even when we disagree. It just seems like you're being obtuse to be obtuse sometimes, despite being super knowledgable and obviously smart (and more than likely a better player than I'll probably ever be haha).

You really can't see how Ral Zarek and Dack Fayden are two very different blue/red cards? Neither of them is Prophetic Bolt, the Planeswalker. They're being super careful to avoid that, it seems.

As per your Liliana concerns, her abilities include discard, tutoring, and reanimation, all three of which are black. Ob Nixilis, on the other hand, has pay life to draw, creature kill and 'my power = your demise'. Neither of them mechanically or flavorfully care about swamps. Which is why Lili of the Dark Realms is so odd. It just doesn't fit what they want from her.

That's why I'm getting annoyed: because I think I just typed a very similar response to that; if I was being a dick about it, that's one thing, but all I'm doing is putting effort into what I'm saying as opposed to hit-and-run posting about it.

To wit: I'm not hearing a reason why existing blue and red planeswalker Ral Zarek cannot be the card you are describing. Yes, Liliana has one coherent theme, but she has several distinctly different in-color abilities across her cards - the reason I'm bringing this up is because it goes to show that mechanical similarity across cards does not actually mean they're simple power level variants of the same card. Dark Realms is an entirely different discussion because all of her abilities were related to a single, relatively obscure part of Black's color pie.

Even assuming Ral Zarek HAD a mechanical identity (which he doesn't really), that doesn't mean he has Twiddle/Bolt/Time Walk as set abilities. Hell, Gideon's ability set has no real connection to his any of his previous ability sets beyond "he turns into a dudewalker." Just look at the guys who have multiple cards - this is true across most of them. Elspeth is really mechanically consistent, but in reality most of them aren't, really.

How does this relate to my original point? Because there's no reason to put two marketable characters on one card if its not doing something a single character couldn't do. The fact that Jace and Chandra have a super tenuous in-storyline connection doesn't help.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Not only that but Gideon has taken up Elspeth's abilities twice now, making stuff indestructible in Origins and making tokens in BFZ.

Elspeth also had practically no cohesiveness except making tokens in her 3 renditions.

 

[The Technomancer]

Not only that but Gideon has taken up Elspeth's abilities twice now, making stuff indestructible in Origins and making tokens in BFZ.

Elspeth also had practically no cohesiveness except making tokens in her 3 renditions.

Gideon's thing was wading into combat himself, and his indestructibility was tied to that. I'm not a fan of how BFZ Gideon does make tokens, it works from a story perspective but it does trample on Elspeth's toes, which was supposed to support more of a "weenie" playstyle (regardless of if she actually fit into weenie decks or not)

 

[OnPoint]

That's why I'm getting annoyed: because it just ignores all the stuff I just wrote to repeat what I just responded to.

I'm not hearing a reason why existing blue and red planeswalker Ral Zarek cannot be the card you are envisioning.

Yes, Liliana has one coherent theme, but she has several distinctly different in-color abilities across her cards - the reason I'm bringing this up is because it goes to show that mechanical similarity across cards does not actually mean they're simple power level variants of the same card. Even assuming Ral Zarek HAD a mechanical identity (which he doesn't really), that doesn't mean he has Twiddle/Bolt/Time Walk as set abilities. Hell, Gideon's ability set has no real connection to his any of his previous ability sets beyond his Plus and 0s.

Gotcha. I'll pick up from here instead of jumping in halfway into other debates so I can stop re-answering stuff.

I'll agree with this -- Ral Zarek's mechanical identity is not strictly defined. It has been one card. However, I think it's more defined than you give it credit for. Based on what we've seen, it seems Ral Zarek is more into the erratic/experiment side of blue/red. I don't think a Scry ability (rerophetic Bolt) really fits him, since with the Izzet, 'results may vary', and Scry is more about precision and planning. I could see something like "Scry 3 then flip a coin. If heads, draw two cards. If tails, shuffle your library" as a more fitting ability for Ral. The Twiddle ability is not my favorite part of his suite, but it does represent him fiddling with things. And Time Walk isn't his per se -- that's more about the "epic experiment" side of him. Big gains are possible, or no gains. It's very Izzet.

To me, Jace and Chandra represent similar, but different aspects of what makes Ral blue/red. Jace is much more assured and exact with his abilities which Ral seems to not be, and Chandra is, well, straight up burn I guess since they refuse to give her anything else. But I don't think the two of them add up to the same red/blue mixture mechanically or characteristically as Ral.

As for Gideon's abilities, I think they were pretty well defined until he seemingly absorbed Elspeth's design space. I guess he expanded into it? I guess she's not coming back? If she does, it'll be different?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Gideon's thing was wading into combat himself, and his indestructibility was tied to that. I'm not a fan of how BFZ Gideon does make tokens, it works from a story perspective but it does trample on Elspeth's toes, which was supposed to support more of a "weenie" playstyle (regardless of if she actually fit into weenie decks or not)

Even if you wade into Elspeth, who has a pretty clear mechanical theme, her nontoken abilities are actually pretty disparate.

Gotcha. I'll pick up from here instead of jumping in halfway into other debates so I can stop re-answering stuff.

I'll agree with this -- Ral Zarek's mechanical identity is not strictly defined. It has been one card. However, I think it's more defined than you give it credit for. Based on what we've seen, it seems Ral Zarek is more into the erratic/experiment side of blue/red. I don't think a Scry ability (rerophetic Bolt) really fits him, since with the Izzet, 'results may vary', and Scry is more about precision and planning. I could see something like "Scry 3 then flip a coin. If heads, draw two cards. If tails, shuffle your library" as a more fitting ability for Ral. The Twiddle ability is not my favorite part of his suite, but it does represent him fiddling with things. And Time Walk isn't his per se -- that's more about the "epic experiment" side of him. Big gains are possible, or no gains. It's very Izzet.

To me, Jace and Chandra represent similar, but different aspects of what makes Ral blue/red. Jace is much more assured and exact with his abilities which Ral seems to not be, and Chandra is, well, straight up burn I guess since they refuse to give her anything else. But I don't think the two of them add up to the same red/blue mixture mechanically or characteristically as Ral.

As for Gideon's abilities, I think they were pretty well defined until he seemingly absorbed Elspeth's design space. I guess he expanded into it? I guess she's not coming back? If she does, it'll be different?

Bolt target thing and Twiddle target thing isn't terribly "random" (to use a word that sort of describes what you're talking about) either. I don't know that I buy that's a real part of his mechanical identity - it isn't really fun.

Let's be fair now: Scry or even Scry-like abilities haven't been a consistent part of Jace's powerset either outside of JTMS having Brainstorm because WOTC lost their minds momentarily. He's mostly the straight-up draw cards Planeswalker.

 

[kirblar]

Not only that but Gideon has taken up Elspeth's abilities twice now, making stuff indestructible in Origins and making tokens in BFZ.

Elspeth also had practically no cohesiveness except making tokens in her 3 renditions.

I think this is because when Elspeth gets rezzed she's going to go in a different direction.

 

[OnPoint]

I think this is because when Elspeth gets rezzed she's going to go in a different direction.

I feel like she's going to be the new white God in the return to Theros, and she won't be a PW at all.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Not only that but Gideon has taken up Elspeth's abilities twice now, making stuff indestructible in Origins and making tokens in BFZ.

Elspeth also had practically no cohesiveness except making tokens in her 3 renditions.

Elspeth's two things were "Make Tokens" and "Make Emblems"/" Weenie Boardwipes". Yes, there was no overlap until Sun's champion in all 3, but Knight Errant was Tokens+Emblems and SoMspeth was "Kill everything but tokens" and a token maker.

My big issue is with Gideon is that he's generically powerful. He could literally exist in any other set with one word of the abilitiesremoved and nothing would change (Knight Ally-Knight).

If they had played around with Gideon's Indestructible features(like he on nearly every other card), he could have had an ult -6: You get an emblem with "At the beginning of each Combat target creature you control gets Indestructible". It makes Gideon less of an auto 4 of, doesn't give players an easy " I just drew another Gideon, time to cash him in" game plan, etc.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I think this is because when Elspeth gets rezzed she's going to go in a different direction.

That's possible. Still a precedent and since we already established that it really just needs 1 ability to be cohesive for a walker there's little stopping a couple walkers from going off in that direction.

I feel like she's going to be the new white God in the return to Theros, and she won't be a PW at all.

That's a common theory but it'd be weird if she wasn't involved in the next phyrexia set given their history.

Elspeth's two things were "Make Tokens" and "Make Emblems"/" Weenie Boardwipes". Yes, there was no overlap until Sun's champion in all 3, but Knight Errant was Tokens+Emblems and SoMspeth was "Kill everything but tokens" and a token maker.

My big issue is with Gideon is that he's generically powerful. He could literally exist in any other set with one word of the abilitiesremoved and nothing would change (Knight Ally-Knight).

If they had played around with Gideon's Indestructible features(like he on nearly every other card), he could have had an ult -6: You get an emblem with "At the beginning of each Combat target creature you control gets Indestructible". It makes Gideon less of an auto 4 of, doesn't give players an easy " I just drew another Gideon, time to cash him in" game plan, etc.

All of those Gideon had at least 1 rendition of by now, he has a version with 2 different + abilities, they even took away one of his unique traits by being pariah (not literally just soaking combat damage)

 

[OnPoint]

That's a common theory but it'd be weird if she wasn't involved in the next phyrexia set given their history.

Isn't her whole thing looking for a place to belong? This would fulfill her story and give her a purpose. And honestly, we might see how her being a planeswalker and a god might affect her, should she become a god and decide to or need to planeswalk.

Also, I wouldn't count on the Phyrexians staying on New Phyrexia...

 

[Angry Grimace]

That's possible. Still a precedent and since we already established that it really just needs 1 ability to be cohesive for a walker there's little stopping a couple walkers from going off in that direction.



That's a common theory but it'd be weird if she wasn't involved in the next phyrexia set given their history.

I'm simply saying that mechanical similarity is less rigid than implied, which makes it hard for me to believe the suggestion that, given the number of guys that already exist, they can't fit any particular ability into one of the currently existing ones.

Isn't her whole thing looking for a place to belong? This would fulfill her story and give her a purpose. And honestly, we might see how her being a planeswalker and a god might affect her, should she become a god and decide to or need to planeswalk.

Also, I wouldn't count on the Phyrexians staying on New Phyrexia...

Return to Phyrexia. Not the New One, the Real One.™

(even though we've never actually been there)

 

[Yeef]

I don't think that making tokens is going to be a common thing for Gideon going forward. I think he just got it here because it hits the sweet spot of tying story and mechanics together.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Concerning Ral Zarek, it's worth noting that he's also established as using magic to create rain, storms, and lightning, so future cards could be based on that aspect.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Isn't her whole thing looking for a place to belong? This would fulfill her story and give her a purpose. And honestly, we might see how her being a planeswalker and a god might affect her, should she become a god and decide to or need to planeswalk.

Also, I wouldn't count on the Phyrexians staying on New Phyrexia...

I'm simply saying that mechanical similarity is less rigid than implied, which makes it hard for me to believe the suggestion that, given the number of guys that already exist, they can't fit any particular ability into one of the currently existing ones.

Return to Phyrexia. Not the New One, the Real One.™

(even though we've never actually been there)

Hey I'm agreeing with you and Elspeth's world isn't phyrexia is it? Was Mirrodin the first new phyrexia?

 

[kirblar]

I feel like she's going to be the new white God in the return to Theros, and she won't be a PW at all.

That'd make sense. The old R/G god coming back seems to be the planned "hook" for the return.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Her world is just some random, unimportant world, I think.

How the fuck the Phyrexians got there, who knows. Planar Portals existed pre-Time Spiral, but haven't been mentioned in the story for what, a decade?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Having been ruled by phyrexians makes it very important imo. How did they get there and why did they leave, what became of the remnants.

 

[charlequin]

I'm not seeing a coherent theme beyond discard. I don't really buy that Liliana's theme is really "reanimation walker" when only one of them has a real reanimation ability.

Liliana Vess and Liliana, Defiant Necromancer both reanimate things. Her character concept is necromancer. Like this seems like a slam-dunk in terms of agreed-upon concept.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Liliana Vess and Liliana, Defiant Necromancer both reanimate things. Her character concept is necromancer. Like this seems like a slam-dunk in terms of agreed-upon concept.

Except LV's reanimation ability is an ultimate; the two cards with reanimating abilities were printed 8 years apart, and all of her other abilities are totally different elements of the mono-black color pie. There's nothing that seems to prevent Liliana from having basically any mono-black ability, really. If you slapped Ob Nixilis Reignited's plus or minus abilities onto a Liliana card, it wouldn't really be out of place at all.

 

[kirblar]

Except LV's reanimation ability is an ultimate; the two cards with reanimating abilities were printed 8 years apart, and all of her other abilities are totally different elements of the mono-black color pie.

There's nothing that seems to prevent Liliana from having basically any mono-black ability, really.

Do you really not understand the flavor/fantasy issues with trying to make the "feel" of the character consistent?

I'm not trying to be a jerk- this is just one of those intuitive things that doesn't seem hard to grasp.

 

[charlequin]

Bolt target thing and Twiddle target thing isn't terribly "random" (to use a word that sort of describes what you're talking about) either. I don't know that I buy that's a real part of his mechanical identity - it isn't really fun.

This is kind of the general Izzet problem -- they're supposed to be mad scientists and it's really hard to do mad science effectively in MTG (or at least they haven't cracked it yet.) They made his first ability fiddly instead since that's a half-decent approximation.

Isn't her whole thing looking for a place to belong? This would fulfill her story and give her a purpose.

Phyrexia is just the Chekov's Gun in her backstory, you can't really wrap her up until you handle it.

Hey I'm agreeing with you and Elspeth's world isn't phyrexia is it? Was Mirrodin the first new phyrexia?

The implication is that Karn tracked the Phyrexian oil all over the multiverse but Mirrodin was so well suited to their style of life that it's the only one where they actually just took over completely.

Oh, that's actually the other reason I don't think they'll park Elspeth yet -- they'll do a set that goes into her backstory down the road.

Except LV's reanimation ability is an ultimate; the two cards with reanimating abilities were printed 8 years apart, and all of her other abilities are totally different elements of the mono-black color pie. There's nothing that seems to prevent Liliana from having basically any mono-black ability, really.

...except for the part where her character concept is necromancer, and where when they printed her with random abilities people complained? I mean, I don't know where to go with this, they have an explicit policy about designing PWs that is more restrictive than what you're suggesting.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Do you really not understand the flavor/fantasy issues with trying to make the "feel" of the character consistent?

I'm not trying to be a jerk- this is just one of those intuitive things that doesn't seem hard to grasp.

Except it's not me that doesn't seem to understand it. Similarity of feel doesn't actually require the abilities to be identical all the time. This is an inherently vague, undefinable argument ("they have to be consistent in feel") that doesn't actually seem to lead back to why Jace/Chandra makes any sense on one card. As least I'm not hearing why.

My take on it is that combining the two on one card would only have one function - disappointing the expectations of the player base for no reason other than some irrational desire to complete storyline cycle. Which makes less sense with Jace being in SOI. Even within the storyline, why would Jace and Chandra be on one card? They only know each other in passing (Gideon and Chandra are an actual storyline pair) and they don't even have the thematic contrast of being fire vs. ice since he isn't an ice person or anything.

...except for the part where her character concept is necromancer, and where when they printed her with random abilities people complained? I mean, I don't know where to go with this, they have an explicit policy about designing PWs that is more restrictive than what you're suggesting.

Except that usually only extends to a single ability. Planeswalkers have semi-random in-color abilities all of the time. I'm still not seeing what reason there is for Jace/Chandra in any in-color form to have an ability that simply couldn't be done with a single character, and using that example, the one that already exists! I simply don't see it either as inevitable, or as being hinted at in any real way. Maro also said straight out that "not every Planeswalker that is in the story will get a card" too.

I mean, okay, sure, Liliana is a Necromancer character and has necromancer powers. How does that restrict her ability to obtain any particular mono-black ability outside of "cares about swamps," which is a pretty random part of the mono-black color pie?

 

[Yeef]

I mean, okay, sure, Liliana is a Necromancer character and has necromancer powers. How does that restrict her ability to obtain any particular mono-black ability outside of "cares about swamps," which is a pretty random part of the mono-black color pie?

Liliana of the Dark Realms is the card that made them realize that planeswalker need a mechanical identity. It's important to keep that in mind. Walkers printed before that don't adhere as closely to that design philosophy as planeswalkers going forward will.

In terms of abilities, Lilliana won't just have "any old" mono black abilities. Her abilities will work toward her necromancy. Discard and creature removal help to fill the graveyard, giving more fuel for her necromancy, that's why she gets those abilities. Tutoring specific cards, Searching up swamps and drawing cards don't really "fit" her mechanical identity. She could certainly have Ob Nixilis' -3 ability, but his +1 on her would feel out of place. The only form of tutoring that would feel 'right' for her is something along the lines of entomb/buried alive.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Liliana of the Dark Realms is the card that made them realize that planeswalker need a mechanical identity. It's important to keep that in mind. Walkers printed before that don't adhere as closely to that design philosophy as planeswalkers going forward will.

In terms of abilities, Lilliana won't just have "any old" mono black abilities. Her abilities will work toward her necromancy. Discard and creature removal help to fill the graveyard, giving more fuel for her necromancy, that's why she gets those abilities. Tutoring specific cards, Searching up swamps and drawing cards don't really "fit" her mechanical identity. She could certainly have Ob Nixilis' -3 ability, but his +1 on her would feel out of place. The only form of tutoring that would feel 'right' for her is something along the lines of entomb/buried alive.

??? Liliana Vess has Vampiric Tutor as her minus and the rare "Liliana" spell mastery card from Origins has Demonic Tutor + Dark Ritual stapled together on it. ???

A lot of this seems like its more aimed "thing this character should be able to do." I mean, there's no reason Liliana would care about swamps, which I think is a big part of the objection. I think a lot of what people believed was "doesn't feel like Liliana" about the second card was that it sucked horribly ("swamps matter" as a theme is really far afield of everything else black cards do)

But almost everything else we're talking about seems at least justifiable if you were like "I need to put this black ability on a Planeswalker." She has eternal life through a Demonic Pact where she trades her soul for power; not to mention that a portion of her demonic powers and Ob Nixilis's demonic powers literally derive from the same source. Hell, the card that embodies her demonic pact (with a picture of her on it) has damage/lifegain (e.g. Sorin's +2), discard (all of her cards), card draw (Ob Nixilis) + the drawback.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Original Counterspell: probably too good.

(note: 2U in playtest terms is 1U)

 

[charlequin]

I mean, I'll agree that there's more nuance to PW character mechanics than "this one thing they always do" and you could probably do a card-drawing effect on a Ral Zarek. I don't think a 4-ability Ral could be the same as what a 4-ability Jace/Chandra could because I really don't think you could do two burn abilities or a mill ability on him, but at this point we're pretty far down the rabbithole.

In entirely unrelated news, did y'all see the extremely minor yet hilariously specific list of changes HEX is making as part of their settlement?

Representative sample:

MURDER CARD NAME NOW ‘KILL’

The card Murder is now named Kill. The card’s rules text has not changed.

 

[Yeef]

??? Liliana Vess has Vampiric Tutor as her minus and the rare "Liliana" spell mastery card from Origins has Demonic Tutor + Dark Ritual stapled together on it. ???

Liliana Vess is her first card, so of course it's not going to adhere to rules they made for themselves after Dark Realms. I specifically called out the abilities I did, because they were on her older cards, but likely won't appear on her cards going forward.

Instants and Sorceries don't really have much to do with planeswalker design goals, so I don't think the spell mastery cards really matter too much.

But almost everything else we're talking about seems at least justifiable if you were like "I need to put this black ability on a Planeswalker." She has eternal life through a Demonic Pact where she trades her soul for power; not to mention that a portion of her demonic powers and Ob Nixilis's demonic powers literally derive from the same source. Hell, the card that embodies her demonic pact (with a picture of her on it) has damage/lifegain (e.g. Sorin's +2), discard (all of her cards), card draw (Ob Nixilis) + the drawback.

It's very easy to justify almost anything with flavor, yes. That's not the issue though. Wizards has said, numerous times, that they intend to carve out unique mechanical space for each walker, both to preserve design space (which is very limited for walkers) and to keep them from stepping on one another's toes so they feel unique. That necessitates narrowing the design space for each individual character.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I mean, I'll agree that there's more nuance to PW character mechanics than "this one thing they always do" and you could probably do a card-drawing effect on a Ral Zarek. I don't think a 4-ability Ral could be the same as what a 4-ability Jace/Chandra could because I really don't think you could do two burn abilities or a mill ability on him, but at this point we're pretty far down the rabbithole.

In entirely unrelated news, did y'all see the extremely minor yet hilariously specific list of changes HEX is making as part of their settlement?

Representative sample:

They seriously included Lotus cards that looks exactly like Black Lotus art, even if it has a different effect? Though at least Hex is picking up the squirrel slack.

 

[Yeef]

In entirely unrelated news, did y'all see the extremely minor yet hilariously specific list of changes HEX is making as part of their settlement?

This is the most hilarious thing:

In HEX previously, all Champions had 20 health. Now you’ll see a variety of Champion health totals. You’ll see totals range from 14 to 19 and 21 to 26 in this update. We’ve thoroughly tested this change and are happy with the results.

The fact that they CAN'T use 20 at all is pretty silly.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'd argue they got off easily the game is quite literally MtG

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, I'll agree that there's more nuance to PW character mechanics than "this one thing they always do" and you could probably do a card-drawing effect on a Ral Zarek. I don't think a 4-ability Ral could be the same as what a 4-ability Jace/Chandra could because I really don't think you could do two burn abilities or a mill ability on him, but at this point we're pretty far down the rabbithole.

In entirely unrelated news, did y'all see the extremely minor yet hilariously specific list of changes HEX is making as part of their settlement?

Representative sample:

Someone please photoshop a third one in the middle called "Death"

 

[red13th]

I mean, I'll agree that there's more nuance to PW character mechanics than "this one thing they always do" and you could probably do a card-drawing effect on a Ral Zarek. I don't think a 4-ability Ral could be the same as what a 4-ability Jace/Chandra could because I really don't think you could do two burn abilities or a mill ability on him, but at this point we're pretty far down the rabbithole.

In entirely unrelated news, did y'all see the extremely minor yet hilariously specific list of changes HEX is making as part of their settlement?

Representative sample:

Hex uses identical terms to MtG, I'm impressed those lasted this long.

EDIT: Oooh this is bad:

CONCLUSION
We appreciate your understanding of these changes and will not be discussing them outside of this communication. With these systems settled, we are excited to move forward with HEX. Thanks for playing HEX: Shards of Fate and best of luck in your battles.